We must keep alive memories of the war dead

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-...701290080.html

"Akai Kujira to Shiroi Hebi"( A Red Whale and a White Snake), a film showing at Tokyo's Iwanami Hall, is a low-key but profoundly moving story.

The movie begings with a promise made by a young Japanese military officer and a schoolgirl during World War II.
and so on.....

I found the film story this morning in the Asahi News Online.
And I think that it is very true, because one only dies when one is completely forgotten by everyone.

I just wonder if you agree with me and with the film story of course?

[KirinMan]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth van Kampen

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-...701290080.html
"Akai Kujira to Shiroi Hebi"( A Red Whale and a White Snake), a film showing at Tokyo's Iwanami Hall, is a low-key but profoundly moving story.
The movie begings with a promise made by a young Japanese military officer and a schoolgirl during World War II.
and so on.....
I found the film story this morning in the Asahi News Online.
And I think that it is very true, because one only dies when one is completely forgotten by everyone.
I just wonder if you agree with me and with the film story of course?

To be honest until you wrote this here I never actually thought about the subject at all.

Now I have something new to consider, thank you for sharing this.

[TuskCracker]

.
I think Clint Eastwood "Letters from Iwo Jima", is receiving much more attention. The film from the Japanese point-of-view is interesting for an American film, and a famous American filmmaker.

For the "war dead", both Germany and Japan must look at the World-War-II war dead in a tough way. Both Germans and Japanese during World-War-II were beyond cruelty. Not all were cruel, but it came from the top leadership.

In World-War-I (yes one), the Japanese military was known for its good behavior towards POW (Prisoners Of War). I have a documentary on DVD that discuss's this about the Japanese military.

The one good thing. Time has over taken over events for Germany and Japan. World-War-II is becoming ancient history. All involved are gone (old age or died on the battlefield).

If you were 18 years old in 1945, today you would be 79-80 years old today.
.
.

[Mike Cash]

My father-in-law was a Japanese soldier. For over 60 years now he has been able to hold a reunion of his unit at any time and any place he wanted. He was the sole survivor.

My mother-in-law was one of the many women who gathered in Tokyo to work on the ill-conceived paper balloon bombs which drifted to the west coast of America. She is the sweetest old woman I know and to this day she has no idea that any of the balloons ever reached America and caused any damage at all. I haven't the heart to tell her of the children that were killed by one of the balloon bombs and sincerely hope she goes to grave in total ignorance of what happened. She was one of the countless women who was "trained" to use a bamboo spear or naginata in preparation for a last-ditch stand against an American amphibious invasion force. Thankfully, that never happened or she would have been shot down in the streets like a rabid dog. Her brother was a sailor, lost at sea.

My grandmother worked in a munitions factory in Tennessee, producing ordnance to blow them all to hell in a million pieces.

My grandmother passed away a few years ago, but my wife's parents are both still alive and well. WWII is a distant memory, but it is by no means something the current generation of our family feels a total disconnect with.

[Mars Man]

Thank you, Elizabeth, for sharing this idea. I do agree with you the sense that the waste of war should not be allowed to stray too far from sight--as it seemingly has from time to time since the greater World Wars.

I think, perhaps, it can be understood that our dead (and I mean human, here) will be forgotten in time; as I know those of my relatives who are interested even, cannot name nor admit knowing of those of our own kin who were lost in the American Civil War--which, by the way, had a very high casuality rate due to improved weaponry and old battlefield tactics.

I also agree with that idea about the dead being really dead once they have been totally forgotten. At the same time, for better or for worse, I'd acquiesce that such is the way of nature itself, and admit that after some likely no more than 100 years, there will be no real trace of me in the aggregate human memory--unless, of course, I do something really spectacular before I die. MM

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

It was in 1966 that I visited Normandy and I went to the cemetery Colleville-sur-mer, the biggest cemetery I ever saw. I think that Americans call it Omaha Beach. Talking about D Day. I started to read the names and the age of their death. And all of a sudden I bursted out in tears.
An old Frenchman came to me, and asked if I had lost a family member.
I told him that I was just a Dutch visiter, but that all those white crosses with the names of all those young men had deeply shocked me.
He told me that he had seen how many Americans and others were killed on that infamous beach.
My Frenchman gave me a wonderful advice, to visit the German cemetery too. He said that it was not far away and that there were not many visiters overthere. He said; I hated the Germans, but now I realize that they were also just very young men.
Yes, I have been to the German cemetery as well.

I hope that in the future still many people will visit both cemeteries, neither of them must be forgotten, they all went through hell. They had to kill each other while they could have been friends. That's how stupid wars are!

[nurizeko]

My grandparents on my old man's side came from Austria to England to escape the troubles in Europe, so in some sobering way I have Hitler to blame for my life.



Oooooooookay, I think I wont dwell on that too much...

Honour the dead, but fight for the living.

Despite the horrible waste of the war, some good things came out of it, it shaped the lives of the survivors and the lvies of those to come after.

Europe is as peaceful as its ever been, Japan has renounced war, America was an all round winner afterwards.

Thats why I prefer to not be too sad about those who died, and rather thank them for enabling me and others to live, and those who died to make Europe and the world a better place.

My Frenchman gave me a wonderful advice, to visit the German cemetery too. He said that it was not far away and that there were not many visiters overthere. He said; I hated the Germans, but now I realize that they were also just very young men.
Yes, I have been to the German cemetery as well.

I hope that in the future still many people will visit both cemeteries, neither of them must be forgotten, they all went through hell. They had to kill each other while they could have been friends. That's how stupid wars are!

As half German, by blood at least, I've always been able to relate a wee bit with the avarage young lad German soldier.

Many were about my age, 21, many were even younger...

WWII allied attitudes held all Germans to be Nazi's, especially the fighting men, but for many, if not most, they were just soldiers doing their job, and thats what makes it sadder for me, these men and lads, fighting hard and with courage, but ultimately doomed to failure, fighting for the wrong side.

As some say, theres no real winners in a war, everyone loses, somehow.

Even under the worst of regimes there were instances of goodness, not every German soldier was happy with things, not every German wished the path Germany had went down, but I guess martial pride, honour, or even plain fear of being labelled a traitor meant that unfortunately by the time people nkew what was going on it was too late.
Its a shame the attempt on Hitlers life didnt succeed...

I am happy to see Germans and Americans and Britons and Frenchmen and everyone able to stand together in places such as the war cemetaries and share their respect for the dead and the regret for the war.

I'm glad to see a Europe united rather then divided, and I'm glad to see that in this day and age, its Germany, with its neighbours that speaks up against unjustified wars.

[TGI-ECT]

If any of you wish to attend British/Commonwealth or American Memorial ceremonies to those that lost their lives in armed conflict, or related to it, please send me a PM and I'll give you details.

You can also contact the RBL or VFW in the Kanto area.

Indeed, destruction of human life, minds, human spirit, and property is an awful business.

But it is also important to take a moment and reflect on death and destruction by other means that produce much the same suffering, such as natural disasters.

You might be very surprised at how similar the suffering is.

I know, I've seen both firsthand.

You'll probably see me at one or all of the memorial ceremonies we hold. Or you may have already.

.

[TuskCracker]

WWII allied attitudes held all Germans to be Nazi's, especially the fighting men, but for many, if not most, they were just soldiers doing their job, and thats what makes it sadder for me, these men and lads, fighting hard and with courage, but ultimately doomed to failure, fighting for the wrong side.

Thats too easy. The cruelty of German and Japanese soldiers is well known. In and around Berlin with the oncoming Russian advance, were civilians forced to be soldiers.

The cruelty of German and Japanese soldiers in World-War-II is not to be ignored. The Japanese military in World-War-I, was completely different in their treatment of POW's. A very interesting DVD I have is "Horror In The East, by BBC", goes into this at great lengths.

[Dr. J. M.]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth van Kampen

[...], because one only dies when one is completely forgotten by everyone.

I think you die as soon as you cease living physically. If there is an afterlife, you will of course live on, metaphysically.
I do not share your definition, because this would mean, that Hitler, Stalin, Saloth Sar and all the other famous mass-muderers of history will live on as long as history is known to humanity.

[GodEmperorLeto]

I've said it before, I'll say it again:

It was terrible, what happened. On both sides. That does not mean we should have disrespect for the dead, though. One of my uncles was in the marines, and he fought against the Japanese. Although he never speaks of he war, he said to my cousin (his grandnephew) who is in Iraq, "They were the toughest, bravest, most determined enemy the United States has ever fought, except for, I think, ourselves." He said that last part in reference to the Civil War. He has great respect for them.

Now, I also have other veteran uncles who still hate the "Nips" and "Slopes" but I imagine there are plenty of WW II Japanese veterans who hate the Americans and British just as much.

The point is, what happened is horrific, and should be remembered for what it was. The Japanese probably were (except for our fellow Americans in the Civil War) the toughest enemy the United States or any other nation ever faced. We should respect them for that, but put the differences behind us and learn from the past.

[Dr. J. M.]

Originally Posted by GodEmperorLeto

I've said it before, I'll say it again:
It was terrible, what happened. On both sides. [...] The point is, what happened is horrific, and should be remembered for what it was.

Agreed.

That does not mean we should have disrespect for the dead, though.

Why not? Since when is dying an achievement worth of respect?

The Japanese probably were (except for our fellow Americans in the Civil War) the toughest enemy the United States or any other nation ever faced.

I disagree.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Originally Posted by Dr. J. M

Why not? Since when is dying an achievement worth of respect?

You sound like Patton. "No sonofabitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor sonofabitch die for his."

I don't think that dying is any achievement. It's a sacrifice. I've never been in a war, but I've heard tales from uncles in Europe, the Pacific, Vietnam, and Korea, and from cousins in Iraq and Afghanistan. I respect anyone who would fight and die for their country, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

I disagree.

Who would you think was the most difficult opponent anyone's ever faced, then? I'm not talking on a strategic or tactical level, but on a personal level.

Then again, war is war, and maybe it doesn't matter who is shooting at you.

[leonmarino]

I am very interested in the movie to be honest. Does anyone know how I can get a copy of it? It seems like it isn't released on DVD yet..

About remembering the dead: I think it is vital to remember the war and the casualties it has caused, so to prevent another war. I also think that education from multiple point of views is also important. Many people blame the Japanese for being in such a horrific war, but many of the young men were just carried along in the large mess of some sort of mass-hypnotism. Or at least, that is my point of view.

[gaijinalways]

I think the bigger problem in Japan is that the government tries to paint an image of a 'victim' Japan, because the soldiers were liberating the rest of Asia and were unable to complete their task. Yes we must keep the memories alive, because
'One who cannot remember the past is condemned to repeat it' (Santayana). The problem is some have selective memories.

Originally Posted by gaijinalways

I think the bigger problem in Japan is that the government tries to paint an image of a 'victim' Japan, because the soldiers were liberating the rest of Asia and were unable to complete their task. Yes we must keep the memories alive, because
'One who cannot remember the past is condemned to repeat it' (Santayana). The problem is some have selective memories.

erm.

The problem is that you seem to be suffering from a form of selective amnesia?

Japan repeatedly admitted being the aggressor in the war, and those politicians who claimed that Japan was trying to liberate Asia have been repudiated.

What's funny is that some Americans are trying to paint an image of a heroic America, trying to liberate Asia from Japanese colonialism, while the US (and many other western powers) was still holding on to its colonies in Asia. If this is not a selective memory, what is.

[miwasatoshi]

diceke:
Re: American colonies

Funny, the Philippines got their independence right after WW2. If they wanted to "keep their colonies", they let arguably their largest overseas possession go in 1946. Interesting how that works.

Granted, America's history with the Philippine Islands is very checkered (see: Filipino-American War 1898-1910) but from countless Filipino records, American actions in the Philippine campaign went above and beyond "colonial treatment".

There's lots of documentation that the Filipinos were displeased with the Japanese because they were pulling the same colonial act as the Americans and Spanish before them, but far more violently. Bataan Death March much?

No, it's clear that the United States did in fact pursue a mostly benevolent mandate, though perhaps less because of altruism and more because this serves American economic interests much more readily than the alternative. (That, I'll gladly concede.)

It's easy to look like a benevolent liberator when the enemy loses control of its troops the way the IJA did (Yamashita systematically failed to curb the excesses of Japanese troops in the PI and ended up being the fall guy for the whole debacle).

Originally Posted by miwasatoshi

diceke:
Re: American colonies
Granted, America's history with the Philippine Islands is very checkered (see: Filipino-American War 1898-1910) but from countless Filipino records, American actions in the Philippine campaign went above and beyond "colonial treatment".

Does that remind us of the typical case of the Stockholm syndrome, a victim showing a sign of loyalty and emotional attachment to the "benevolent" victimizer?

Fusako Sano's captive childhood
ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/639264.stm

"Beatings

The nine-year-old schoolgirl was seized in November 1990 and kept in the first floor of the house Mr Sato shared with his mother in Niigata, 250km (160 miles) north-west of Tokyo.
Mr Sato struck fear into the girl, now a 19-year-old woman, with beatings and verbal lashings, police said.
He was detained on 28 January, when his mother, 73, called a doctor after noticing his strange behaviour.
His mother said she had no idea that the girl was being kept in her son's room.
But police say they suspect she had some inkling that the girl was being kept captive but was afraid of her son and his violent outbursts.

No lock

During the time in captivity, the suspect cut the girl's hair, shared his clothes with her and occasionally gave her baths, according to a police investigation.
According to press reports, she lived without a toilet and bathroom, eating instant food or meals cooked by her kidnapper's mother.
For entertainment, the victim reportedly had a radio for eight years, and was only allowed to watch television in the last year of her captivity.
"I was too scared to escape and eventually lost the energy to escape," the woman was quoted as telling police.
In her terror, she reportedly found it impossible to leave even when the man left the home, which was only a few steps away from other houses in the quiet neighbourhood.
The door, reports said, was never locked."

[frostyg02uk]

Ive read a few, admittingly not all of these posts and many are worth reading. I think Elizabeth visiting german graves is a great thing that must of took alot of courage considering many of them were probably in holland during the invasion.

My take on this is that no one grew up wanting to kill for a living. Many soldiers on both sides were forced into fighting. Lets not forget that in the Uk you got a letter and you were off to war thats it. Does anyone think that japan or germany was different? that every single person wanted to go to another country and fight?
During WW2 it was very difficult to capture a japanese soldier because they saved the last bullet for themselves. i think fighting for your country right or wrong is worthy of respect. Lets not forget that especially at that time soldiers had no right to political ideals so its not that they wanted to invade china, even dare i say German nazi's must of thought they were right. before WW2 germany was in major dept and had most of its land taken after WW1, seeing your whole country in poverty because of other leaders mistakes cant be a nice thing to live through, i think at the start of the war the germans wanted to take that land back but because it was so easy they lost sight and grew ambitous.
Even now many americans see russia as the great enemy but i wont forget that they gave up 11 million souls during WW2 and if they had'nt of helped the Uk i think we would of been finished long before america decided they might help. The history books are always written by the winners so take what they write with a little salt.

[Ewok85]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth van Kampen

And I think that it is very true, because one only dies when one is completely forgotten by everyone.

I've always thought about that - one only truly dies when everyone who knows you dies too.

I spent alot of time in my youth with Veterans - attending memorials at dawn as part of an honour guard, carrying unit banners in parades, helping out at events/dinners for veterans etc. To me these are people that have seen and experience things that are far too horrible for me to imagine, and they have had to carry this with them their entire lives. Good or bad they did what they did for what they were told was "the good of the country", for their King, Emperor or God.

One of the most interesting things I have seen was several years back when they invited Turkish veterans, the "enemy", to come and march in the Australian Anzac Day parades. Every year the 25th of April is a National Holiday in Australia. Memorial services are held all over the country in memory of servicemen and women who have died in the service of their country. After this parades are held in the capital cities and town all over Australia.

Anyway, seeing these old men, marching together, with people cheering was just an amazing sight, and makes you wonder how these things even start in the first place...

Originally Posted by diceke

What's funny is that some Americans are trying to paint an image of a heroic America, trying to liberate Asia from Japanese colonialism, while the US (and many other western powers) was still holding on to its colonies in Asia. If this is not a selective memory, what is.

Funny, the UK handed back Hong Kong which has blossomed into a wonderful city. As far as I know the USA does not hold any colonies, but small scattered islands. And Australia/New Zealand are the same.

[frostyg02uk]

Friends today enemys tomorrow. Soldiers, like i said have no right to political ideals they just do as they are told or get court martialed...or at that time probably shot. IF anyone hasnt seen this already JSA a korean movie might interest you to see that sometimes if politicians didnt have ideals or power withdrawals the greatest of enemys could be the greatest of friends instead.

[caster51]

Kamikaze

h@ttp://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Studio/1715/syokan.swf

Thoughts by Lieutenant Ryoji Uehara
Born September 27, 1922
Graduated from the Department of Economics, Keio University

This was written by him the night before the assault.

I feel deeply honored and privileged to have been chosen to become a member of the Army’s “Special Attack Corps,” which embodies the glory of Japan. Having delved deeply into logic and philosophy at my university, what I am about to say can be described as the ideology of liberalism. What is obvious to me is the inevitable triumph of liberty. An inherent and essential element of all humans, freedom cannot possibly be destroyed. Even though at times such feelings may be suppressed internally, they are constantly fighting to emerge and will eventually prevail. This is a belief and truth stated by the Italian philosopher Benedetto Croce.
It is a clear fact that authoritarian and totalitarian governments may at times flourish; but ultimately they will be defeated. We can see the truth of that when observing the governments that are playing leading roles in the world war, as manifested by the defeat of Fascist Italy, not to mention Nazi Germany. Authoritarian governments are disappearing one after the other, crumbling like buildings without a foundation. The universality of this truth is now being tested by reality. Just as history has shown in the past, liberty will once again prevail and flourish.
These beliefs that I hold may turn out to be catastrophic for my homeland; but the fact that what I have believed in all along has proven correct gives me nothing but satisfaction. Today’s struggle, whatever form it may take, stems from differences in ideology; and the result is predictable on the basis of those belief systems. Thus, the ambition of having my beloved Japan become a mighty empire like that of Great Britain must remain unfulfilled.
If the leadership positions in Japan had been held by those who truly love Japan, my country would not have been driven into the situation it faces today.
My dream was to be a person able to take pride in being a Japanese, no matter where one may be in the world.
What one of my friends once said is true: a pilot of the Special Attack Corps is merely a mechanical instrument. He just steers the apparatus. He is only a molecule within a steel device intended to stick fast to an enemy aircraft carrier, possessing neither personality nor emotions.
If one thinks about it rationally, this act is incomprehensible. These pilots are simply suicidal. This is a phenomenon that occurs only in a country such as Japan, a nation that places so much emphasis on the spiritual aspect of life.
Since I am nothing but a machine, I have no right to state my case. I only wish that the Japan that I dearly love will someday be made great by my fellow citizens.
In such an emotional state, my death may accomplish nothing. Nonetheless, as I stated at the outset, I feel quite honored to have been chosen to be a member of the Special Attack Corps. True, once inside an aircraft, I am a mere instrument; but when not aboard, I do have emotions and passion.
When the woman for whom I cared so dearly passed away, I died with her, emotionally. I believe that she waits for me in Heaven, where we will be reunited. Death does not frighten me, because it occurs as part of the process of going to Heaven.
Tomorrow is the day for the assault. My motivation is highly unorthodox, so it is not worthy of public notice. I just wish to express the true feelings inside me. Please forgive me for my disorganized thoughts. Tomorrow a man who has always advocated the values of freedom and liberty will depart from this earth. Although he may appear forlorn, he is in fact very content.
Once again, please forgive my rambling.

Date of death: May 11, 1945

Among his effects left behind was a book on philosophy written by Benedetto Croce. In the book there were markings here and there. When one strings together the characters so marked, it reads as follows: “Goodbye, my beloved Kyoko. I loved you so much; but even then you were already engaged, so it was very painful for me. Thinking only of your happiness, I suppressed the urge to whisper into your ear that I loved you. I love you still.”

I think this is also a message to american

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

It should be a message to all governments in this world who send their young men and women into a war instead of letting them live their lives.

[Astroboy]

Originally Posted by caster51

Kamikaze
h@ttp://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Studio/1715/syokan.swf
Thoughts by Lieutenant Ryoji Uehara
Born September 27, 1922
Graduated from the Department of Economics, Keio University
This was written by him the night before the assault.
I think this is also a message to american

I think I read this in Japanese before....We have to keep thinking of his will.

After the war, Japan attained its economic prosperity thanking to many chances as well as own endeavors. But always founded on the ultimate sacrifices of the past war deads. So Shall we go to Yasukuni Shrine ???

[Astroboy]

Originally Posted by TuskCracker

Thats too easy. The cruelty of German and Japanese soldiers is well known. In and around Berlin with the oncoming Russian advance, were civilians forced to be soldiers.
The cruelty of German and Japanese soldiers in World-War-II is not to be ignored. The Japanese military in World-War-I, was completely different in their treatment of POW's. A very interesting DVD I have is "Horror In The East, by BBC", goes into this at great lengths.

How about cruelty of US soldiers in the Pacific? and Vietnam? and Iraq?

I suggest you to read "War Without Mercy", which author was American (not Japanese). http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p483_Wikoff.html

WWI was less fierce in Asia than Europe. So Japan could afford to treat POW in a better way. But in WWII, it must have been tougher without any latitude.
Many Japanese soldiers starved to death in the pacific islands without any supplies. In such situation, it is impossible to serve Beef stake for American POW.

"Cruelty" is not only for Japanese/German soldiers, but also others.