Whales = "cockroaches of the sea"

[earthangel]

I heard some time ago that some Japanese official said that whales are the "cockroaches of the sea."

Can someone point to the exact reference, by whom and when?

Thanks,

[yukio_michael]

Google is your friend.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...23/ai_77236607

[Mr Man]

I've also seen them refer to other species as the "Rats of the sea"
It's easier for them to label whales in such derogatory ways in order for them to be detached enough to exploit and destroy them, making it easier to justify the atrocities they commit against them in the name of $$$ or in this case ￥￥￥

[Aerain]

I don't know what is different in killing whale than any other animal, isn't it only a normative judgement to think that whale deserve a better treatment than any other animal (excluding human in this case)? I mean there are a lot of more important issues that seems to be resolved/debated first. I find it ridiculous even though I am not for it.

[Mycernius]

Originally Posted by Aerain

I don't know what is different in killing whale than any other animal, isn't it only a normative judgement to think that whale deserve a better treatment than any other animal (excluding human in this case)? I mean there are a lot of more important issues that seems to be resolved/debated first. I find it ridiculous even though I am not for it.

Why exclude humans? Aren't we just animals as well?

[yukio_michael]

Originally Posted by Mycernius

Why exclude humans? Aren't we just animals as well?

No whale (that I know of, nor dolphin) ever wrote Ulysses, or painted "Starry Night".

;)

[Aerain]

Originally Posted by Mycernius

Why exclude humans? Aren't we just animals as well?

Well people who aren't used to or accept moral relativism usually don't accept this idea, I thought like most people I had shared a discussion on the subject, people would be more likely to accept my argument if I excluded humans...

[Mycernius]

Originally Posted by yukio_michael

No whale (that I know of, nor dolphin) ever wrote Ulysses, or painted "Starry Night".

;)

No whale or dolphin have started genocidal wars either. They know the Vogons are coming though.

[Aerain]

I somewhat find more cruel to tame dolphin to make backflips and kiss it's trainer I mean I feel empathy for those who would be forced to do it all day long to eat their meal and have their aquarium cleaned up.

[Mr Man]

Originally Posted by Aerain

I don't know what is different in killing whale than any other animal, isn't it only a normative judgement to think that whale deserve a better treatment than any other animal (excluding human in this case)? I mean there are a lot of more important issues that seems to be resolved/debated first. I find it ridiculous even though I am not for it.

I don't have a problem with whale hunting for survival, but when it's turned into a supply and demand commercial venture in a country like Japan, supply will always increase as demand does, meaning no controls, no limitations and ultimately, destruction of a huge chunk of marine ecosystem, beyond just whales.
Can we really trust the politicians to be responsible to the environment when the real money starts rolling in? Their track record with other marine creatures is shockingly bad! 95% of blue fin tuna gone from southern oceans due to continued over fishing, false catch quotas reported, and the vast majority of that going straight to Japan! They are already lying about the so called scientific whaling they are conducting now! Everybody knows it's commercial, if not then supermarkets are laboratories, and we're all lab technicians? When they lie with every breath now about the reasons they have for hunting whales inside the Antarctic whale sanctuary, how much credence can we give them when they smugly reassure us that they will regulate the industry to make sure whales are never threatened as a species? You'd have to be incredibly naive to believe them!
But I guess there are many who do, since they started trying to whip the public into a patriotic fever of support, calling it a cultural right, as if culture is immutable and set in concrete and therefore justifies their greed, many have answered the call and come running to their aid. Funny how that culture card is so selectively played though, eh? Many other aspects of Japanese culture are no longer in effect! Why? Because they no longer meet with the needs or ideals of todays Japan. Whale meat on the menu is NOT an issue of survival anymore! Nobody is going to die from starvation if whales aren't hunted! It's all about money! Dressed up as culture for all the servile minions who feel they are on the receiving end of another bout of Japan bashing. It is now known that damage to, and even total loss of one seemingly unrelated section of environment can be attributed to the loss of one species of animal. Nobody really knows the real extent of damage that will be caused if whales are hunted to extinction.
The issue is not which animals are more worthy of protection and which can be exploited, it's about the blatant commercialism being dressed up as cultural rights and patriotic duty! There is currently NO viable market in Japan for whale meat, so the government is striving to create a false market now. One of their methods is to use kids in schools, by putting it on the school lunch menus in some prefectures. Their thinking? Today's captive elementary school kid is tomorrow's whale consumer! Great!
We can't allow the remaining scraps of beauty in the world to be sacrificed to the greed of corporations! Money is the only motive here! Make NO mistake!
I'm not saying whales are any more deserving of protection than any other animal, but we certainly don't need to start killing them too, just to prove that point!
In a (big) nut shell the situation is this: A big government supported/subsidised company named Nissui has for years openly stated its intention to start hunting whales, but due to concerted international pressure applied to its overseas subsidieries, Nissui had to quit that plan. The government however have vowed to continue the fight, (no doubt spearheaded by Nissui under a different name; the usual suspects) and the next push is to buy the IWC by sheparding all the little countries (some land locked-LOL) with voting power into the pockets of Japan Inc, where they will be looked after until they get a majority vote to start commercial whaling again and are no longer of use. A relatively small group of very cynical corporate pigs with political support are rallying the masses of Japanese to aid THEM in getting rich! The benefits to the people of Japan? Whale added to the already huge seafood menu......and in several years, environmental disaster! I emplore everyone to fight these bastards tooth and nail.
It's about standing up and saying no more rape of the environment by the greedy and saving it for our children and their children!

[Aerain]

Originally Posted by Mr Man

The issue is not which animals are more worthy of protection and which can be exploited, it's about the blatant commercialism being dressed up as cultural rights and patriotic duty! There is currently NO viable market in Japan for whale meat, so the government is striving to create a false market now. One of their methods is to use kids in schools, by putting it on the school lunch menus in some prefectures. Their thinking? Today's captive elementary school kid is tomorrow's whale consumer! Great!

I agree on most of your points, but when you say there is NO viable market in Japan, it is only because "whaling" is restricted for commercial purpose, or I believe, and that's why there is no profit generated from scientific institution that hunts them, however it (the process of hunting and marketing) stimulates the economy of the country, I am not saying that it is right or ethically acceptable to do so, but that as an institution, the government of Japan have the function to act in behalf of it's interest before any ethical question, like every other institution; it is why the United States went in Irak, because without oil their economy would have collapse, etc... We should direct our criticism onto the system and not only the japanese government... It is the system that doesn't work or is "unethical"... For exemple, if we would live in a ideal world, people in africa wouldn't starve, there would be no poverty, etc... And the main reason why humanity will never evolve it is because of the human nature in some way... We are above all individualists, before pointing fingers at other people, we should look at ourselves...

[Mr Man]

Originally Posted by Aerain

I agree on most of your points, but when you say there is NO viable market in Japan, it is only because "whaling" is restricted for commercial purpose, or I believe, and that's why there is no profit generated from scientific institution that hunts them, however it (the process of hunting and marketing) stimulates the economy of the country, I am not saying that it is right or ethically acceptable to do so, but that as an institution, the government of Japan have the function to act in behalf of it's interest before any ethical question, like every other institution; it is why the United States went in Irak, because without oil their economy would have collapse, etc... We should direct our criticism onto the system and not only the japanese government... It is the system that doesn't work or is "unethical"... For exemple, if we would live in a ideal world, people in africa wouldn't starve, there would be no poverty, etc... And the main reason why humanity will never evolve it is because of the human nature in some way... We are above all individualists, before pointing fingers at other people, we should look at ourselves...

True, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out against what we see as fundamentaly wrong either. Once we've looked at ourselves and corrected what we can, we should also try to add our drop in the ocean of mass opinion in the hope of influencing its momentum in whatever tiny way we can.
Thanks for your comment though I'm glad you don't support it.

[d3jake]

Originally Posted by Mycernius

They know the Vogons are coming though.

Wasn't that the dolphins?

[Aerain]

Originally Posted by Mr Man

True, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out against what we see as fundamentaly wrong either. Once we've looked at ourselves and corrected what we can, we should also try to add our drop in the ocean of mass opinion in the hope of influencing its momentum in whatever tiny way we can.
Thanks for your comment though I'm glad you don't support it.

Well I love whales and I support Green Peace actions but it seems that nothing will ever come out of it. When I saw a documentary about whaling by the japanese I really felt a lot of empathy for those poor animals, but again, every animal are the same and it would be contradictory to eat meat while defending them.

[yukio_michael]

Originally Posted by Mycernius

No whale or dolphin have started genocidal wars either. They know the Vogons are coming though.

Very well played, sir!

[Aerain]

I had this fun discussion with my father, where we talked about some interesting aspects of the Asian culture and I ended up discussing with him on the subject of whaling; the funny thing is I asked him about the market, to know whether the Japanese would export their stocks to the Asian market or would rather keep them exclusive to their own market, if I remember well, he didn’t clearly answer me, but he told me that the Korean fisherman would sometime catch whales in accident and that in that case the whale could be legally sold in it’s own market. I somewhat found it ridiculous, because there is no one to supervise the fisherman to know if their claim would be true or not in the case they would get a catch. Anyhow, he told me that it was really expensive, but that it tasted very good. I don’t know if anyone against whaling has ever tried any whale product, but maybe people would change their mind, if for example, they would try once and love it. It seems that social conditioning is an important factor to whether someone would be in favour or against it, because most Asian doesn’t seem to be as deeply involved in the cause. Also, I suspect that the Japanese would likely export their stocks in other Asian market, as I believe that the seal of “commercial” industry affixed to the regulation law concerning whaling links to the fact whether its activity generate profits or not.

[Mr Man]

Originally Posted by Aerain

I had this fun discussion with my father, where we talked about some interesting aspects of the Asian culture and I ended up discussing with him on the subject of whaling; the funny thing is I asked him about the market, to know whether the Japanese would export their stocks to the Asian market or would rather keep them exclusive to their own market, if I remember well, he didn’t clearly answer me, but he told me that the Korean fisherman would sometime catch whales in accident and that in that case the whale could be legally sold in it’s own market. I somewhat found it ridiculous, because there is no one to supervise the fisherman to know if their claim would be true or not in the case they would get a catch. Anyhow, he told me that it was really expensive, but that it tasted very good. I don’t know if anyone against whaling has ever tried any whale product, but maybe people would change their mind, if for example, they would try once and love it. It seems that social conditioning is an important factor to whether someone would be in favour or against it, because most Asian doesn’t seem to be as deeply involved in the cause. Also, I suspect that the Japanese would likely export their stocks in other Asian market, as I believe that the seal of “commercial” industry affixed to the regulation law concerning whaling links to the fact whether its activity generate profits or not.

The majority of Japanese I've spoken to about eating whale meat, said that they didn't like it. And had memories of having to eat it at school etc, but would not choose to now. I'm sure there are those who love it too, and depending on how it's prepared it probably IS delicious. I've actually had it once, but I was tricked into eating it by the mama san at an Izakaya I used to go to, and to tell the truth, I thought it tasted okay.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Originally Posted by earthangel

I heard some time ago that some Japanese official said that whales are the "cockroaches of the sea."

,

It would'nt suprise me!

They seem to have derogative English terms whenever it suits..

The word Alien always got me!

[Astroboy]

I am a bit surprised to see this ..... Koalas may be treated as cockroach in Australia.



Without Koalas & Kangroo, Australia must be boring. I suggest Australian to treat animals well in order to attract foreign tourists.

http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=1101

[kame]

I can see how the cockroach remark would get twisted by anti-whaling advocates. A stupid and careless remark as an official, nonetheless.

I think Aerain puts into words how many Japanese feel about the hostile intervention toward whaling by other countries. People kill animals like cockroaches everywhere, including in Australia where 3 million+ kangaroos per year are slaughters as pests. They don't NEED to eat kangaroos and they even use some for pet food.

Whether we NEED to eat whales to survive is not relevant to justify or deny whaling. The question is why do we single out whales out of thousands of other species humans kill regardless of their necessity for our survival.

To prevent certain endangered species from extinction is certainly a valid reason to stop hunting them and no one argues against that. Other subjective reasonings that we hear in various places including this thread are not justifiable argument to force someone to give up something.

Originally Posted by Mr Man

True, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out against what we see as fundamentaly wrong either.

You can speak out against what you believe is wrong, but you should always keep in mind that what you SEE as fundamentally wrong is just a subjective value based on your past life experience. Eating beef is seen as "fundamentally wrong" by some people so is homosexuality or not believing in certain God. Your conception of whaling being "fundamentary wrong" has no more absolute basis than those people who believe that homosexuality is "fundamentary wrong".

Yes, there are always people trying to prevent gay marriage or otherwise make their lives more miserable (although I don't see people trying to outlaw eating beef yet), but I think one of the fundamental ideas of democracy is to respect the freedom of individuals so long as it doesn't profoundly affect the rest of us negatively. Otherwise, if the loudest voice always gets its way in democracy, there is no chance for minorities to defend their values that democracy is supposed to protect.

[Rose Selavey]

Originally Posted by kame

Whether we NEED to eat whales to survive is not relevant to justify or deny whaling. The question is why do we single out whales out of thousands of other species humans kill regardless of their necessity for our survival.

Because they are at the top of the food change, have very few predators, and they are large animals. If you go back to basic ecology, when large species of the food change (or even small ones) have a dramatic population shift, either an increase or decrease the balance in that particular eco system is out of whack.

The fallacy that whales eat all the fish and are the '**** coaches of the sea' is simply a why to continue to justify this a viable and reasonable form of hunting.

[kame]

Originally Posted by Rose Selavey

Because they are at the top of the food change, have very few predators, and they are large animals. If you go back to basic ecology, when large species of the food change (or even small ones) have a dramatic population shift, either an increase or decrease the balance in that particular eco system is out of whack.

I agree that scientific discussions from the ecological perspective should be encouraged and what you say is totally a legitimate topic that should be discussed at IWC. But being at the top of the food chain doesn't necessarily mean that you can't hunt them at all. On the contrary, one could argue that their population would recover relatively fast in the absence of predators. There has to be a reasonable # that the scientists can come up with for different whale species.

[kame]

Originally Posted by Rose Selavey

The fallacy that whales eat all the fish and are the '**** coaches of the sea' is simply a why to continue to justify this a viable and reasonable form of hunting.

You are a little confusing me with this part though. You mention that

when large species of the food change (or even small ones) have a dramatic population shift, either an increase or decrease the balance in that particular eco system is out of whack.

If whales are such a major part of the ecosystem (large species, top of food chain, etc), isn't it entirely plausible that a dramatic population increase which the minke whales could be enjoying have a significant effect on their preys? I am not saying that it is (having an effect on fish population), but your logic seems "out of whack" as well.

[Rose Selavey]

Originally Posted by kame

You are a little confusing me with this part though. You mention that
If whales are such a major part of the ecosystem (large species, top of food chain, etc), isn't it entirely plausible that a dramatic population increase which the minke whales could be enjoying have a significant effect on their preys? I am not saying that it is (having an effect on fish population), but your logic seems "out of whack" as well.

Sorry to confuse, If animals on top of the food chain have a large population boom, they usually end up extinct (most top of all food chains, humans)
Southern hemisphere Minke whales are not more abundant then they were before hunting. They are close to the top of the food chain, but other larger whale species such as fin, humpback and blue whales are the major players. In the Southern hemisphere, the first minkes were caught in 1894-1895. Commercial whaling for minkes in this region started in the 1950s and increased after the decline of other whale stocks. Between 1972 and 1980, the Japanese fleet took over 30,000 Minke whales in this region. The Minke whales would not be having a significant effect on their prey, humans are the cause for declining fish stocks not whales. Scientists are still struggling to understand and manage the oceans, and because of the political problems associated with the so called 'law of the sea' many ecosystems (which are intertwined and complex) will become extinct before we know it.

[kame]

Originally Posted by Rose Selavey

Southern hemisphere Minke whales are not more abundant then they were before hunting. They are close to the top of the food chain, but other larger whale species such as fin, humpback and blue whales are the major players. In the Southern hemisphere, the first minkes were caught in 1894-1895. Commercial whaling for minkes in this region started in the 1950s and increased after the decline of other whale stocks. Between 1972 and 1980, the Japanese fleet took over 30,000 Minke whales in this region.

So what is your point? What would be a scientifically acceptable number of minke whales that can be caught? By all estimates, it seems that there are 0.5-1 million minke whales in that region. One thousand (<0.2 %) that Japan is catching sounds like a reasonable number to me.

The Minke whales would not be having a significant effect on their prey, humans are the cause for declining fish stocks not whales. Scientists are still struggling to understand and manage the oceans, and because of the political problems associated with the so called 'law of the sea' many ecosystems (which are intertwined and complex) will become extinct before we know it.

You say that minke whales should not have a significant effect on their prey, yet you maintain that hunting <0.2% minke population per year would have "a significant effect" on the ecosystem? Again, your logic seems to be very biased.