How Far Are You Western-ized ?

[Jiyuu]

One thing I hear from some people visiting Japan, is that Western-ization. One transformation under effects of another always corrupts, I'd not like friends from Western countries take this offensive.

A solid and rich culture is maintained by a traditionalist society to a degree. I have always seen the Japanese people being hard-working, attached to their culture hence traditions very closely, highly regarding virtues like respect, effort and peace.

Since my homeland is being torn apart by imported Western way of life, brands and the irrelevant loyalty created to them, totally corrupting TV programs and shows, the process of cultural genocide by being exposed to things we never had before due to our cultural bakground; I'm concerned about the same for Japan.

How do you, especially native Japanese friends see about the situation? Is it how you were or is there a change in progress that is disturbing ?

[Goldiegirl]

You can only be corrupted if you allow yourself to be. Being modern, having state of the art health care, plentiful choices, being (more) socially free to express yourself through religion, art, politics...hmm...I guess "westernization" isn't all that bad.

[Jiyuu]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

You can only be corrupted if you allow yourself to be. Being modern, having state of the art health care, plentiful choices, being (more) socially free to express yourself through religion, art, politics...hmm...I guess "westernization" isn't all that bad.

As if one wouldn't be able to modernize without copying the Western way..As if Westernization worked out in so-called free Iraq..That's absolutely another topic.

Anyways, I'm not absolutely intending to be offensive here, and so I am looking for the same please. I have mentioned about the negative effects of imported lifestyles on comparably-conservative societies in my opening post. Health care, modernism, art and politics etc. are not monopolies of West. And actually, they are way off from what I was trying to reach here.

[yukio_michael]

I'm sorry, your country is being torn apart by more than Big Mac's and Levis jeans. You can't force a culture on another group of people, unless you are conquering them. You may not like it, but western influence is something that people want--- Every time a Burger King goes up in Bangkok, some hippie who reads The Beach too much complains that it's marginalizing Thai culture, which couldn't be less true.

Japanese people for the most part actively choose what they wish to import... Nobody is forcing them to be "more western", and if you go there, you'll see that by and large, they are still traditionally an Asian nation.

Being exposed to things that your government previously didn't expose you to is a good thing... Information is rarely harmful in and of itself, it's what you choose to do with it.

[tanuki otoko]

Actually I don't see how Turkey is torn apart. At least I know a lot of Turkish people who prefer living in modern Istanbul but in the traditional turkgerman quarters of Berlin or the Ruhrarea. And Turkey has been a modern state since Atatürk's reform anyways, hasn't it?

[mika_r]

this is part of globalization. it's a modernt phenomene. every country non-weternized sufferd it. exept of course those one who close their borders.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Definitions:
A number of definitions abound, but all generally note the increasing convergence of markets, economies, and ways of life across the world. A broad overview definition is that globalization is the worldwide process of homogenizing prices, products, wages, rates of interest and profits [2]. Globalization relies on three forces for development: the role of human migration, international trade, and rapid movements of capital and integration of financial markets.
The IMF International Monetary Fund stresses the growing economic interdependence of countries worldwide through increasing volume and variety of cross-border transactions ... free international capital flows, and more rapid and widespread diffusion of technology.
A less economic-focused definition from the Encyclopedia Britannica states that globalization is the "process by which the experience of everyday life ... is becoming standardized around the world."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization

[Jiyuu]

Originally Posted by yukio_michael

I'm sorry, your country is being torn apart by more than Big Mac's and Levis jeans. You can't force a culture on another group of people, unless you are conquering them. You may not like it, but western influence is something that people want--- Every time a Burger King goes up in Bangkok, some hippie who reads The Beach too much complains that it's marginalizing Thai culture, which couldn't be less true.

Japanese people for the most part actively choose what they wish to import... Nobody is forcing them to be "more western", and if you go there, you'll see that by and large, they are still traditionally an Asian nation.

Being exposed to things that your government previously didn't expose you to is a good thing... Information is rarely harmful in and of itself, it's what you choose to do with it.

Yup. You can't force one to wear only Levi's. It's his/her choice -brand loyalty that is. My question was directed at people, if there are any, who think that such aspects of populism hurts their culture.

I mean. Big Brother shows was not our thing. Eventually got imported. Such shows were the firestarters of the opium-izing TV shows which were followed by shows subliminally dictating "hit, fight, debate, do anything to get into the spotlight". Yeah, because there is a fight, there are people arguing furiously in front of the cameras, people watched it. 'Cause people wanted to watch it. But I think at least one person will agree with me on that what people want is not always what the right thing is.

And globalization, as mika_r gave a Wiki excerpt of, turns around the money -to which eventually any and every way is conceptually "acceptable", whether immoral or not.

tanuki okoto, actually you can not see how Turkey is torn apart socially without living here. Most of the nation is numb, has no sense to what's going on, bombarded with what they wanted. And the topic was about if you feel like such thing is happening in Japan as well.

Of course, there are internal factors acting as powerful as what I am talking about here. But you know, the topic is the corruption as a consequence of Westernization, if any.

And, by the way, yes Turkey is a modern state since Ataturk's reforms..And?..So what?

I think me and you are confused about which point is meant to be delivered. Maybe my fault.

[hideway]

Originally Posted by Jiyuu

Since my homeland is being torn apart by imported Western way of life, brands and the irrelevant loyalty created to them, totally corrupting TV programs and shows, the process of cultural genocide by being exposed to things we never had before due to our cultural bakground; I'm concerned about the same for Japan.?

Corruption is such a subjective word. You only see it as corruption because you don't agree with the changes. I don't see how cultural exchange can be corrupting at any level, it isn't like "westerns" (I've always found that word funny)are spreading any disease on everyone else.

You just have to be more tolerant towards change.

[Jiyuu]

Originally Posted by hideway

Corruption is such a subjective word. You only see it as corruption because you don't agree with the changes. I don't see how cultural exchange can be corrupting at any level, it isn't like "westerns" (I've always found that word funny)are spreading any disease on everyone else.
You just have to be more tolerant towards change.

Um, ah no, I'm not someone residing in a tent, riding horses and excelled at archery

If I'm unable to get even a simple answer about EU when I askabout it to a guy in expensive Levi's wear, having a hamburger in a McDonald's shop talking about the last night's Big Brother show with his friend; sorry, I can't help it, I can't love that change.

[hideway]

You don't have to love it, just accept it.

[Jiyuu]

Originally Posted by hideway

You don't have to love it, just accept it.

I have edited my post for you

...sorry, I can't help it, I can't accept that change.

[ludoNL]

Originally Posted by Jiyuu

Um, ah no, I'm not someone residing in a tent, riding horses and excelled at archery
If I'm unable to get even a simple answer about EU when I askabout it to a guy in expensive Levi's wear, having a hamburger in a McDonald's shop talking about the last night's Big Brother show with his friend; sorry, I can't help it, I can't love that change.

You're talking about corruption by western countries but your country doesn't need a western country for that. Are you forgetting all the problems your country has? You've haven't been denied access to the EU for nothing.

I think people always need a person or thing to blame for the problems around them.
And I agree with the person saying that changes only occur if they're wanted.

[Dr. J. M.]

Well what's so bad about westernization? If you don't like western products, don't buy them. If you don't like western lifestyle, don't life that way. Everybody has the right to decide for him/herself how they want to life.
(Apart from that, this cultural 'corruption' as you put is no one-way street. Or why else do you think there are so many Japanophiles all over the western world?)

[Jiyuu]

Originally Posted by ludoNL

You're talking about corruption by western countries but your country doesn't need a western country for that. Are you forgetting all the problems your country has? You've haven't been denied access to the EU for nothing.
I think people always need a person or thing to blame for the problems around them.
And I agree with the person saying that changes only occur if they're wanted.

Half of Turkey's population does not want to enter EU. I have no intention to drag the discussion somewhere way off. After all EU is something I don't want to be a part of, just like the half of the nation. What government does, does not represent the mindset of the nation.

Sidenote: I'd like to know what kind of problems you know about Turkey in private please.

Well what's so bad about westernization? If you don't like western products, don't buy them. If you don't like western lifestyle, don't life that way. Everybody has the right to decide for him/herself how they want to life.
(Apart from that, this cultural 'corruption' as you put is no one-way street. Or why else do you think there are so many Japanophiles all over the western world?)

I was asking the ideas of native Japanese if there's something like that they feel the existence of, if so, were they happy with it or not. I still think that the most convenient response will come through them. I really don't want to turn this into a West-East fight.

[ludoNL]

Originally Posted by Jiyuu

Half of Turkey's population does not want to enter EU. I have no intention to drag the discussion somewhere way off. After all EU is something I don't want to be a part of, just like the half of the nation. What government does, does not represent the mindset of the nation.
Sidenote: I'd like to know what kind of problems you know about Turkey in private please.

Since this does have some reference to the topic at hand, I don't feel the need to discuss this in private.
1) Denial of Armenian genocide
2) Disregard towards Human Rights
3) Conflict over the internationally recognised Republic of Cyprus.

You say half your nation doesn't want to enter the EU, but Turkey is a democracy. "What government does, does not represent the mindset of the nation.". If this is the case, there is something very wrong with the political system in your country.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I'm curious: when you say Westernization, do you mean that as "Americanization" or "Europeanization" or a mix of the two?

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by Dr. J. M.

Well what's so bad about westernization? If you don't like western products, don't buy them. If you don't like western lifestyle, don't life that way. Everybody has the right to decide for him/herself how they want to life.
(Apart from that, this cultural 'corruption' as you put is no one-way street. Or why else do you think there are so many Japanophiles all over the western world?)

Some individual aspects of life are a matter of personal preference, product choices (although American brands and chains may be more available or economical) and style of housing for instance. Others are regulated on a larger scale, such as mandating Western clothing or the use of cars and other public transportation. And Japan isn't even a good example of colonization where an outside, imperial force has created change against the interests of many of the native people....

[Ma Cherie]

How do you define Westernization? Do you define it as a McDonald's being built on your block or do you define it as Western ideologies affecting your political system?


And I wouldn't be concerned about Japan, it seems that Japan embraces many aspects of Western culture.

[misa.j]

Originally Posted by Jiyuu

A solid and rich culture is maintained by a traditionalist society to a degree.

I think a traditional culture is still cherished and does exist in Japan. While the Japanese adopted lifestyle, policy, education, etc., from other countries in their own ways, there has been a strong stance to preserve a heritage among people. A tv would not be the best place to find it, though.

[craftsman]

Originally Posted by Jiyuu

Since my homeland is being torn apart by imported Western way of life, brands and the irrelevant loyalty created to them, totally corrupting TV programs and shows, the process of cultural genocide by being exposed to things we never had before due to our cultural bakground; I'm concerned about the same for Japan.

Your statement reminded me of an article by Ziauddin Sadar, editor and author, who was shocked at the rampant globalisation (Westernisation) when he returned to Singapore.

Globalization is now sold as the best chance for economic uplift of the excluded masses of the world’s poor. It marches forward by stripping them of all that civilizes them in their own tradition, history and cultural expression.

...to be successful economic empowerment requires ... naked entry into mass popular culture manufactured in America, recycled and parodied by pale imitation everywhere. Indeed, The End – of civilization as the peoples of the world have known it, lived it and cherished its richness and diversity.

Jiyuu, the worries you brought up are the same for countless countries battling to hold on to their own cultural values and traditions in the face of a globalizing juggernaught.

Japan however, being one of the major players in this corporate takeover and with a world-class economy, appears to assimilate changes much better than other often much poorer nations. But one only has to take a look at recent Japanese dietry habits to see that some changes no country can escape.

[Goldiegirl]

Westernization, globilization, whatever word you want to use is going to happen. It's not going to stop unless you close of the borders of your country, take away phones, computers, the Internet, television, radio, the printing press, and keep the intelligent people of your country afraid for their lives so the can't or won't speak up, or kick them out of your country...and the list goes on.

[craftsman]

To continue on from my last post (I ran out of time)...

What Hollywood makes in the global marketplace is more than just profit. It sells costly, high-production value, glossy programmes for discounted prices to the television networks of the world. The cost of bought-in programming is internationally regulated – the poorer the country the less they pay. So it is impossible for Third World countries to produce local programmes with such production values. Locally produced programmes look poor in comparison to imports and seldom attract advertising.

What is seen on TV takes on an educational meaning; it is the substance of which global success is made. So the children of the élite in newly emerging economies buy into and act out the lifestyle of the rich and dominant in the West.

Through television, advertising, movies and pop music they are force-fed a total lifestyle package. What matters is the look, the affectation, the cool; and each of these abstractions can be translated into a merchandising equivalent available at a nearby shopping mall.

The only real difference being that in Japan what most people see is mainly Japanese television, advertising, movies and pop music due to the heavy restrictions placed by Japanese companies to preserve their revenue.

[Jiyuu]

I see. So being the leading economy of the world, Japan either has to lead or be somehow a part of this "imported lifestyles" stuff.

And thanks to Japanese friends' explanations, it seems they have nothing to worry about. Glad, I'm relieved to have reached where the topic was supposed to from the start.

Since this does have some reference to the topic at hand, I don't feel the need to discuss this in private.
1) Denial of Armenian genocide
2) Disregard towards Human Rights
3) Conflict over the internationally recognised Republic of Cyprus.

1) Armenian Genocide never happened. Armenians were massacred in big numbers, but why? Because following the Ottoman-Russian war in the late 1800s (should be around 1870s), Russians used Armenians as a tool of rebellion and armed them in gangs. Tasnak Sutyan is the most famous of all.

I think you'll be surprised to hear that Armenians were called "Millet-i Sadika" (=The Loyal Nation) in Ottoman times. However, as the nationalism wave was revised and lit by exterior forces such as UK, France and Russia to knock down the "Sick Man of Europe", Ottomans that is, Armenians turned their backs on their lifetime neighbors.

Ottomans are still one of the leading figures, if not the top, of tolerance towards the non-Muslim. That's why in lands that were under Ottoman rule for years still talk their own language, still believe what they used to believe before Ottomans.

So it's just weird to accept that Turks had gone mad instantly and made an ethnic cleansing of Armenians.

Not every killing is genocide, the first thing you must know of all. Systematical killing of a racial, religious or cultural group is defined internationally as "genocide".

Tasnak Sutyan and other minor gangs were armed by Russians, later down in southern regions by the French, to terrorize the area. The result was awful. I have read documents where Russian soldiers tried to stop Armenians from their rebellious and terrible acts since it was completely inhumane and something one couldn't stand to watch.

I have read memories of a child watching how the Turkish lieutenant had given his promotion by having his shoulder skins cut and peeled to look like a rank indicator, his legs skin peeled off to look like pockets.. I have read how they gathered all women of one of Van's villages in the mosque and how they raped them so that women were walking..weird...

According to the Ottoman state archives, around 512.000 Turks were killed during Armenian gangs' massacres through the period longing from the Ottoman-Russian war to 1914. Did you ever hear that ?

Of course not. And that's where the lazy-*** Turks' mistakes start. We always ignored this problem like the plague, and it was like a snowball forming into an avalanche. Now it fell down on us at the threshold of EU.

Eventually, after Armenian's massacre of Turks, they were obliged to a "relocation" (=Law of Tehcir ). They were forced to move off down to Syria. But on their way to their destination the furious Turkish and Kurdish folk and soldiers did the same back to the Armenians. There is a loss topping a million. By the way, according to the last population count done by Ottoman state, the Armenians counted no more than 1.400.000. So the exaggeration and the plot of lies starting from 1.5 to 2 million are completely imaginary from the very beginning.

If there is an Armenian Genocide then there is a Turkish Genocide as well. I oppose the idea of a genocide, since it was not a systematical ethnic cleansing, but was an unfortunate act of avenging. I have debated around this issue for times and times, and I assure you one Armenian had the guts to accept the killing of Turks, unlike the Diaspora Armenians.

The real problem is that you've (non-Armenians) been shown one side of the medal, painting Armenians as a totally huffy-puffy innocent nation massacred in their homelands while the remaining survivors fled all over the world. And the biggest mistake is ours, by either denying the whole thing overlookedly saying "noone died" or ignoring the issue completely.

Finally I have to remind you that Armenia refused to join the invitation of Turkish prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, that was made in order to open up the historical archives of both sides and debate the matter, dated March, 2005.

May you have time, check this website whose webmaster is a businessman in USA who is unable to disclose his name since he's constantly threatened by the Diaspora Armenians.

www.tallarmeniantale.com

2) Human rights. Ah. Though it's not a severe issue anymore, though the scenarist of the notorious movie Midnight Express that painted Turks black for years admitted that everything was of his imagination, nothing is real; we have a developing democracy that was rocked several times by military coups. They happened when the political flaw was so big that the whole country was nothing but a plane of chaos. However a coup always puts the democratic level of a country at least 10 years back.

3) Cyprus is not somewhere only the Rum live. The northern part is called the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), which is the state formed after the operation to save Turks being massacred by EOKA, the Rum organization that terrorized Turks living there before 1974.

Eventually Turks were saved. I have to point out that it was a systematical ethnic cleansing to get rid of Turks, so that the majority, if not all, would be Rum and Cyprus would lawfully belong only to them. However, Turkey saving his countrymen there was labelled the invader as if it was made out of boredom.

TRNC is living under economical embargoes since its birth, the state of the folk is not fine with life standards because of the export/import limitations. As long as TRNC is not recognized, Turkey will not hesitate to deny the Rum part of Cyprus. Because Cyprus is not only somewhere the Rum live.

All these happen because of that EU thing that was "put" on us. Most of the people, even those that favor it, do not know what EU means at all terms, what it will bring and what it needs. As far as it seems to me, that's my personal view, EU is something that we were offered but refused years ago, during Prime Minister and TRNC's savior Bulent Ecevit's governing. And now we're craving for it. What happens when you go for something you had refused before ? Think of any relationship. Can even be a matter of romance.

EU will take as more incentives as they can from us which does weaken our internal security. It may be proper and suitable for another state, but what EU demands and what they bring as rules during gameplay weirdly, are not things Turkey can handle. Being out of EU will benefit both sides, though as long as our government insists doing exactly what they want, EU will keep on grasping even more.

You say half your nation doesn't want to enter the EU, but Turkey is a democracy. "What government does, does not represent the mindset of the nation.". If this is the case, there is something very wrong with the political system in your country.

You're completely right. Political system, and its participants called political parties, none of them, offer a convincing bright future for the country. Since Ismet Inonu's death, the comrade of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, this country was always exposed to corrupted politicians and governments.

Been quite much, eh? I wanted to talk in private and that's why. This much of post will just de-rail the topic.

[ludoNL]

1) You live in a country that has been systematically denying a genocide. You could have been indoctrinated from birth, for all I know. I'd like to believe that I live in a country in which an open and honest discussion about subjects like these is available. Most people and scientist in western countries, Russia and even a growing number of people in your country believe that this was indeed genocide.

2) So you agree that Turkey has a problem when is comes to Human Rights?

3)This is the first time I've read anyting about a massacre of Turks by the EOKA. The invasion of parts of Cyprus by Turkey was a cunning way to gain territory. Claiming to uphold the Treaty of Guarantee.

[Sirius2B]

Sorry, I will skip completedly the episode of Turko-Armenian history, and return to the original theme.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I will separate the terms "Modernization" from "Westernization".

Both Turkey and Japan are both "modernizing" since more than a Century ago... and I think is good...

Now, "Westernization" is a term with trick... who says if one country is "western" or not?

Look at the shameful game regarding the entrance of Turkey in Europe... speaking at convenience in terms of race and religion ("Europe as Christian Civilization...") when they so fit.

If well the material adventages in entering the E.U. cannot be overlooked... I feel like I want to tell Turkey... "say to them: Go to hell!... There is a lot of space for Turkey interests in Central Asia".

I repeat: It is a term with trick... they say that you are "westernized" if you, due your own work and whatever your culture, are rich and successful. On the other hand, Christian people like Russians will never become "westernized" until Corporations and polititians in rich countries says so.

See all that garbage about "Japan as a Westen Country"... if you are rich and successful, and well integrated in World Economy, doesn't matter that your deep history has nothing to do with a Western European, Greek-Roman, Judeo-Christian, Humanistic, etcetera, supposed cultural background that again, supposedly form the core of Western Civilization.

Why we don't simple say "You are in the club of economicaly successful countries".

Soon, even China one day may be "a Westen country".

I believe that such a term "Westernization" leads only to confusion, and some negative effects in traditional cultures. Maybe not everything traditional everywhere is desirable... but some things that have matured during centuries in a given place, should not be so easily changed for a bottle of Coke and a shirt with Mike Jordan.

I am myself, not "Westernized" and don't want to be, not now and probably not never.

Regards.