Canada's seal hunt about to begin

[Sarapva]

Canada is about to begin its annual hunt for baby harp seals' fur. This is comparable to whaling and dolphin hunting in its cruelty. Here is a link to sign an email to send to the Canadian prime minister:

http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/s...wkggbrq6e3xmw?

[leonmarino]

As long as there is a demand for these furs or whatever they make of these animals these things will continue. I don't believe signing a petition will make any difference; I'd rather wait for market forces to settle things for the better.

[yukio_michael]

Originally Posted by Sarapva

Canada is about to begin its annual hunt for baby harp seals' fur. This is comparable to whaling and dolphin hunting in its cruelty.

Do you know what's cruel? Torture and human rights abuses... Maybe spend some time worrying about the human race, and the precious baby seals, dolphin, and whales won't seem so drastic... sigh.

Double sigh.

[Duo]

humans of course are priority, but that doesn't mean that what happens to baby seals, whales, or dolphins is any less tragic.

[leonmarino]

Originally Posted by Duo

humans of course are priority, but that doesn't mean that what happens to baby seals, whales, or dolphins is any less tragic.

I take it you are vegetarian? I hope so, because what about the rights of cows, pigs, chickens etc..

Without making personal attacks, I find all these things about animal rights and animal abuse often very inconsistent. I mean, many people call themselves animal-lovers by keeping pets. In the case of cats and dogs, these pets are feeded with food made from animal products. Now why is your Rex, Pochi or Tama so sweet and the cow that went into the can of food not? And if you give them meat to eat, why bother about seals and dolphins?

I am not saying that I endorse these killings, I find the products related to seals completely unnecessary as far as I am aware of them. If I ruled the world all seals would live in peace. Not because I care, but because I don't care.

[made of stone]

Very sadly, I think there are probably cruelties of many different kinds happening all around us, every minute of every day, if we choose to open our eyes and acknowledge them. Once we have done that, personally I think we have to consider if each individual case is something we'd like to see stopped. If it is, then either you do something, no matter how little, in the spirit of protesting that cruelty, or you do nothing. The choice is yours.

Human torture is very real, it's happening right now. Quite rightly, almost all of us lend our shrill voices to denounce it, (although it's a completely different question whether any of us are doing anywhere nearly enough.)

The animal equivalent is far more frequent, and far less talked about. leonmarino, try to see the many grey shades in between those blacks and whites that are so easily spotted! Man has killed animal for thousands of years, but the technique is very important indeed. If you slit a goat's throat, it will gently slip away, akin to falling asleep. Modern farming methods favour stunning it by electrocution and then slitting it's throat. The great difference is that in many cases the goat (or sheep, or whatever) can see the production line it's on, what has happened to the others before it, and even before it's turn has come, it's a terrified animal indeed.

I'm a meat eater at present, and doing my best to preserve that status (I love a good steak!) But my meat must be ethically raised and killed. The way these seals are slaughtered is deeply inhumane and completely unethical and the end product is not a mere staple of life (as meat is for many communities and cultures) it's a fashion accessory for those who are so rich it's the only status symbol they have yet to acquire!

I applaud Sarapva for her thread. She has now made one thread on the Japanese dolphin hunts (massacre?) and one on this, in her own continent. It seems very balanced to me, and she comes across as somehow who values life, pure and simply. Bravo!

[Sarapva]

Thank you for all these discussions! I know that people are also suffering abuses all over the world, as well as animals, and I'd like to see all this suffering come to an end. But I see all this as interrelated - if we treat animals badly, we're a step closer to treating humans badly, too. I don't think that advocating for animals rights means ignoring humans. Any living thing that has the capacity to suffer should be treated with respect. As humans, we have more power over animals than they do over us (in an overall sense - I know that if a person is attacked by a bear, the bear probably has more power!). So we have more responsibility to treat them right, as well as to treat each other right. I know this ideal is far from the reality of today's (and yesterday's) world, but if we each do what's right in our own tiny area, treating animals and humans alike with respect, it brings it that much closer to being a reality worldwide.

Leonmarino - I think you're right that it's the demand for the seals' fur that keeps the slaughter going. But it seems that as more and more people are finding out exactly how the fur gets to the stores, they're choosing not to buy it. And I agree that cows and pigs, etc. are as important as our own pets. (I've been a vegetarian for almost 3 years now!)

Made of stone - Thank you for your good defense of myself and the thread! Your example of the goat being slaughtered humanely versus in a factory farm assembly line is a good one. I think the psychological/emotional stress of animals in this situation is about as cruel as the physical stress. Do you buy your meat from a farmer you know, who uses humane methods with the animals? My cousin raised lambs for a while on a farm in Kent (I think), and he was planning to start selling organic beef. I'll have to find out exactly where - you might be buying from him!

And you said it, mos, about fur being a fashion accessory, certainly not a necessity. Don't people realize they're wearing dead animals?? www.furisdead.com

[Duo]

Originally Posted by leonmarino

I take it you are vegetarian? I hope so, because what about the rights of cows, pigs, chickens etc..
Without making personal attacks, I find all these things about animal rights and animal abuse often very inconsistent. I mean, many people call themselves animal-lovers by keeping pets. In the case of cats and dogs, these pets are feeded with food made from animal products. Now why is your Rex, Pochi or Tama so sweet and the cow that went into the can of food not? And if you give them meat to eat, why bother about seals and dolphins?
I am not saying that I endorse these killings, I find the products related to seals completely unnecessary as far as I am aware of them. If I ruled the world all seals would live in peace. Not because I care, but because I don't care.

No I'm not a vegetarian....far from it. I'm not a vegie animal lover lovey dovey guy, but still I do think that some things that we humans do to animals are very cruel and if there is something that can be done to curb these practices then why not? I'm not saying take efforts away from stoping human rights violations and focusing on animals.

[yukio_michael]

Once you realize that PETA would prefer animals not be tested upon, at the behest of curing cancer, you really start to distance yourself from animal activists... that's just my opinion. This has been stated by whomever runs PETA, it's not simply a nebulous opinion they share.... They would rather Humans suffer, than animals.

[leonmarino]

Originally Posted by Duo

No I'm not a vegetarian....far from it. I'm not a vegie animal lover lovey dovey guy, but still I do think that some things that we humans do to animals are very cruel and if there is something that can be done to curb these practices then why not? I'm not saying take efforts away from stoping human rights violations and focusing on animals.

If you want cruelty against animals to stop, I'd also stop eating any meat if I were you. Cows, pigs and chicken are often held in spaces too small to be "decent" for these animals. Or you could switch to free-range/biological meat, but then you'll have the pay a premium and refrain yourself from eating in any restaurant that does not have bio-meat.

I too am against these killing of seals but I find the arguments I read in this thread very strange. The meat on your burger and the bacon that comes with your sausages have suffered for a long period under bad conditions. These seals suffer only for only a few minutes, maybe an hour max if there's one sadistic worker involved.

If you care for animals, care for those who suffer most, not the ones that are most cuddly, ignoring your mammals that you eat as food. Care for all or care for none at all.

[Sarapva]

Originally Posted by yukio_michael

Once you realize that PETA would prefer animals not be tested upon, at the behest of curing cancer, you really start to distance yourself from animal activists... that's just my opinion. This has been stated by whomever runts PETA, it's not simply a nebulous opinion they share.... They would rather Humans suffer, than animals.

I don't think it's that PETA would rather have humans suffer, but that there are more modern computer models now that can be used instead of animals. And animals don't always react to medicines the way humans do.

[KirinMan]

Originally Posted by leonmarino

If you want cruelty against animals to stop, I'd also stop eating any meat if I were you. Cows, pigs and chicken are often held in spaces too small to be "decent" for these animals. Or you could switch to free-range/biological meat, but then you'll have the pay a premium and refrain yourself from eating in any restaurant that does not have bio-meat.
I too am against these killing of seals but I find the arguments I read in this thread very strange. The meat on your burger and the bacon that comes with your sausages have suffered for a long period under bad conditions. These seals suffer only for only a few minutes, maybe an hour max if there's one sadistic worker involved.
If you care for animals, care for those who suffer most, not the ones that are most cuddly, ignoring your mammals that you eat as food. Care for all or care for none at all.

I have to agree with this statement here, I find it funny that people who want to stand up for the "so-called" rights of the seals, whales, dolphins, what ever, do so while enjoying that nice thick juicy steak that they just took off the grill.

The majority of them come across as hypocrites to me. Next thing they are going to be complaining about the "feelings" of a head of lettuce too, heck they are living organisms just as well.

Human's were put at the top of the food chain for a reason, and I don't care to share that with any other species except my own.

[yukio_michael]

Originally Posted by Sarapva

I don't think it's that PETA would rather have humans suffer, but that there are more modern computer models now that can be used instead of animals. And animals don't always react to medicines the way humans do.

There aren't computer models that can acurately simulate a simple red blood cell, so I don't know where you're getting this. (ed: Please refer to Scientific American, a magazine which specifically published the attempts people have been making to test drugs on computerized models...)

As for the second part of your statement, though there may be differences in the way that say mice react to a certain drug, they do react in an appreciable way that is useful to the scientific community to ascertain a drug's possible use for testing on humans... this is the point... without this go-between, we would be blindly testing drugs on human beings.

[Sarapva]

I think that we are, to an extent, blindly testing drugs on humans. We don't really know what side effects a drug will have until hundreds of people have used them.

I don't know about specific computer models about drug testing - I've just heard that this is possible now.

[made of stone]

What an interesting thread!

There are really so many issues here that each could perhaps have their own thread!

I particualrly agree with what leonmarino said:

Care for all or care for none at all.

Absolutely! But there are two ways to looking at this fine statement. To me it means care for all living life more, and that I whole-heartedly agree with. However, to some it appears to mean something like 'if you eat meat, then don't decry any cruelty to animals' and that is something that turns the stomach!

There is a world of difference between eating meat, and unnecessarycruelty to animals!

And I do also believe that humans are near the top of the food chain (through technology, no less) but that in no way gives us carte blanche to treat other species however we wish.

Traditional hunting methods for food, going back many hundreds, if not thousands, of years = ok!

Brutal slaughter of mammals for the skins in a (relatively) new and unnecessary fashion = something that can and should be avoided wherever possible!

Originally Posted by yukio_michael

There aren't computer models that can acurately simulate a simple red blood cell, so I don't know where you're getting this. (ed: Please refer to Scientific American, a magazine which specifically published the attempts people have been making to test drugs on computerized models...)

As for the second part of your statement, though there may be differences in the way that say mice react to a certain drug, they do react in an appreciable way that is useful to the scientific community to ascertain a drug's possible use for testing on humans... this is the point... without this go-between, we would be blindly testing drugs on human beings.

Exactly. That's why a certain 'global-player' company from the US has been caught out recently using children in Russia as human guinea pigs for their drugs, to circumvent the tight restrictions on even animal testing at home.

[KirinMan]

And I do also believe that humans are near the top of the food chain (through technology, no less) but that in no way gives us carte blanche to treat other species however we wish.

Ok, if humans "are near the top" as you say here, than who or what is at the top?

While I agree that with todays technology more humane methods of killing animals for human comsumption is possible, I also believe that culling of animals groups is necessary as well.

If humans want to pay for the luxury of having a fur coat, fine with me, doesnt mean that I am going to purchase one. However as long as there is a viable market for this the killing will not stop.

You know what surprises me here is people seem to be so concerned about whales and seals but I don't see anyone complaining about the slaughter of elephants for their ivory. You may see the point I am trying to make here and this comment is not directed towards you alone but to all that make such a big stink about the whales and seals. These people are very selective of what they want protected, probably because you see those animals/mammals as being cute and cuddly but when it comes to elephants, oh well tough luck.

Which makes me agree with this quote from lemonmarino even more,

If you care for animals, care for those who suffer most, not the ones that are most cuddly, ignoring your mammals that you eat as food. Care for all or care for none at all.

[made of stone]

I have to start Obeika, by saying that I sense you are looking for a fellow antagonist here more than anything else, and you will not find one in me - I am not here to argue with anyone. Nevertheless, here's my reaction to your post.

Ok, if humans "are near the top" as you say here, than who or what is at the top?

It's irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and not my point at all. There are many predators to man, all the world over. I can go into detail on this, but there's no need.

While I agree that with todays technology more humane methods of killing animals for human comsumption is possible, I also believe that culling of animals groups is necessary as well.

Yes, certain animal groups for sure. To keep this thread on track, could you kindly provide the evidence that this seal cull for luxury coats for the Western market is 'necessary'?

You know what surprises me here is people seem to be so concerned about whales and seals but I don't see anyone complaining about the slaughter of elephants for their ivory.

You are most correct here - there needs to be a thread. Why not start one yourself, if you feel so strongly, instead of be-littling those who start a thread in the name of just one mammal? Again, are you saying that we should get pro-active about all animals, or else forget about them all, and just slaughter and maim as the 'higher' human mind sees fit??

These people are very selective of what they want protected, probably because you see those animals/mammals as being cute and cuddly but when it comes to elephants, oh well tough luck.

I grew up with elephants, giraffes and snakes. They are all creatures that deserve respect, but it doesn't mean we as humans can't look at them as food. The key is: what is humane, and what is necessary?

What is your point, Obeika? Again, if you're just someone who's bored and looking for an internet 'tussle' look elsewhere please!

[KirinMan]

What is your point, Obeika? Again, if you're just someone who's bored and looking for an internet 'tussle' look elsewhere please!

First off you are wrong in assuming that I am looking for a tussle or fellow antagonist, you assume too much. I have every much a "right" as anyone else here to voice my opinions, dont event begin to presume otherwise, that is your mistake.

Yes, certain animal groups for sure. To keep this thread on track, could you kindly provide the evidence that this seal cull for luxury coats for the Western market is 'necessary'?

It necessary for the people who want to purchase the products created by use of the seal skins. What evidence otherwise is necessary.
It is also a fact that without the culling the seals they would threaten the Atlantic Cod fishing industry. The numbers may be off but culling one species to protect the livelihood of another is a fact of life.

You are most correct here - there needs to be a thread. Why not start one yourself, if you feel so strongly, instead of be-littling those who start a thread in the name of just one mammal? Again, are you saying that we should get pro-active about all animals, or else forget about them all, and just slaughter and maim as the 'higher' human mind sees fit??

A bit condescending here aren't we. Yeah go ahead get proactive about all animals if you want, while I sit back and enjoy my tuna sushi or whale meat shashimi. If you want to think that I am be-littling anyone so be it, that's your opinion which you are entitled to as I am to mine as well.

The key is: what is humane, and what is necessary?

Who decides what is humane or necessary?

To the fishermen subsidising their income from the culling of the seals will probably tell you that they need the money for their livelihood, are you or anyone else for that matter willing to replace their lost income from not killing the seals? If someone would come up with the money to pay them I would bet that they would stop. But the market still exists for the skins.

Eliminate the market and the "volume" of the kill would drop, however there still would be culling of the seal population no matter what, while 300,000 pups vs 1,000,000 is a huge difference, 300,000 would still probably need to be killed to protect the fishing grounds.

I submit that the people that are so against this culling of seals should go after the market first.

It's irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and not my point at all. There are many predators to man, all the world over. I can go into detail on this, but there's no need.

In my opinion here you are dead wrong, it is very prevalent to the discussion as humankind is the final dictator of what happens on this planet. It is humans that make the choices, sure there are predators to humans, but there is no predator like the human race, and to think otherwise is ............

We are the top, no matter if you think otherwise or not.

[leonmarino]

Originally Posted by made of stone

There is a world of difference between eating meat, and unnecessarycruelty to animals!

If you think that any cruelty to animals that one deems unnecessary should be avoided, how necessary is it to eat meat? Being descendants of apes, it is highly plausible that we are not omnivores but rather herbivores. But this is disputable and there seems to be no scientific consensus about it. (If there is, please show me link because I haven't been able to find any..)

My opinion about this is that eating meat is mainly a cultural thing; it seems to me that if one is raised in a 100% meat-free environment with a vegetarian diet, that person would never instinctively think about killing the first cow he sees. Other, carnivorous/omnivorous animals have this killing instinct.

Mind you, my argument is based on a hunch, so it's nothing scientific. I apologize, but since there is little research done involving deliberately isolating people from their meat-eating environment to see the effect on their hunting behaviors, I have no other way to argue this.

Second, even if meat is a essential, unmissable part of our natural diet, is it necessary to treat them like the animals are often treated nowadays in the bio-industry? Small cages, little sunlight if any.. If one thinks there is a difference between necessary cruelty and unnecessary cruelty being done to animals, how necessary is it to support this way of producing meat?

There is also the possibility to eat free-range meat (I don't know how it is called exactly). For a few quid more people can buy off their guilt, and eat "animal friendly" meat. But isn't taking the life of a living animal away the highest form of cruelty? Sure, if an animal is in an obvious state of constant suffering, I would kill it for sure, but these free range pigs and cows -supposedly- live a good life! It seems very paradoxical to kill these animals instead of the ones suffering their bio-industry cages.

My conclusion, again is the same: if one cares for animals, one should care for all animals equally and refrain oneself from eating meat.

Originally Posted by Obeika

You know what surprises me here is people seem to be so concerned about whales and seals but I don't see anyone complaining about the slaughter of elephants for their ivory.

I think that the people complaining about seals being killed are equally considered about their trunked friends, but as this is a Japan-related forum, it is not suitable for any discussion of that kind. We even had a row a while ago about not being allowed to have any discussion on Europe, not even in the Chit-Chat section, so I guess a discussion on Africa would be very much out of the question!!

[KirinMan]

I think that the people complaining about seals being killed are equally considered about their trunked friends, but as this is a Japan-related forum, it is not suitable for any discussion of that kind. We even had a row a while ago about not being allowed to have any discussion on Europe, not even in the Chit-Chat section, so I guess a discussion on Africa would be very much out of the question

Ok, thanks for the reply on this.

I now wonder then why is the "seal" hunt in Canada allowable for a topic?

[leonmarino]

Originally Posted by Obeika

Ok, thanks for the reply on this.
I now wonder then why is the "seal" hunt in Canada allowable for a topic?

HAHAHA!! Indeed!! I completely overlooked that!!

What is the connection to Japan?

[Sarapva]

No connection to Japan at all - since this is "Chit Chat" I thought it was an allowable topic (I didn't know topics on Europe weren't).

A lot of good points raised! I see the point about being concerned about other animals as well as whales and seals. Just because the topic of one is brought up doesn't mean there isn't concern for another. Animal rights groups are concerned about all animals, down to hamsters and mice, and advocate treating all with respect.

I think that as people in general are becoming more educated about how fur gets to the market and the cruelty involved, they're deciding for themselves not to support that industry. There have been a lot of fur stores in the U.S. that have closed because of this. I think the same will happen in Europe and Russia eventually. It seems the main population of people are against this kind of cruelty to animals, and it's only a matter of them finding out what really goes on in these industries that have kept the cruelty quiet to keep up their profits.

Since it's not likely that people as a whole will stop eating meat any time soon, the lesser evil to me seems to try to support companies that are making an effort to keep animal suffering to a minimum. Organic farms have rules regarding the humane treatment of animals, so I would buy organic meat if I ate meat. And of course organic meat doesn't have the added hormones and anti-biotics. Even though right now this costs more, in the long run it's better for humans and animals, and it's been predicted the price of organic meat and produce will go down as more people buy it.

[KirinMan]

Originally Posted by Sarapva

No connection to Japan at all - since this is "Chit Chat" I thought it was an allowable topic (I didn't know topics on Europe weren't).
A lot of good points raised! I see the point about being concerned about other animals as well as whales and seals. Just because the topic of one is brought up doesn't mean there isn't concern for another. Animal rights groups are concerned about all animals, down to hamsters and mice, and advocate treating all with respect.
I think that as people in general are becoming more educated about how fur gets to the market and the cruelty involved, they're deciding for themselves not to support that industry. There have been a lot of fur stores in the U.S. that have closed because of this. I think the same will happen in Europe and Russia eventually. It seems the main population of people are against this kind of cruelty to animals, and it's only a matter of them finding out what really goes on in these industries that have kept the cruelty quiet to keep up their profits.
Since it's not likely that people as a whole will stop eating meat any time soon, the lesser evil to me seems to try to support companies that are making an effort to keep animal suffering to a minimum. Organic farms have rules regarding the humane treatment of animals, so I would buy organic meat if I ate meat. And of course organic meat doesn't have the added hormones and anti-biotics. Even though right now this costs more, in the long run it's better for humans and animals, and it's been predicted the price of organic meat and produce will go down as more people buy it.

While I may not agree with you personally this subject I have to say that I can and do respect your opinion. Well done.

[leonmarino]

Originally Posted by Sarapva

I think that as people in general are becoming more educated about how fur gets to the market and the cruelty involved, they're deciding for themselves not to support that industry.

Originally Posted by Obeika

While I may not agree with you personally this subject I have to say that I can and do respect your opinion. Well done.

Yep. This must be the first time I've had a normal discussion about this subject on this forum without the whole blaming and shaming game. Respect!!

[Sarapva]

Yes, I think it's important to be able to voice our opinions on things without blaming or putting others down.