Is religion fear?

[Anchyyy]

Well, i had a class about different religions. A bit of history too lol. So let's start!

Is religion fear? Do people believe in something because they are afraid?
That was our main question today.

In the pra history a human being believed in souls. That's animism. They hat some super natural forces are controlling their lives. They were afraid of the lightning, earthquakes and such things.
That's actually the beginning of development of different religions.

In the past (around 15. century, before the Reformation) people blindly believed in whatever Church said. Why? They were afraid that they'll go to Hell, if they won't say and do whatever the Church says is right. The priests were telling the people that they have to do good things since they'll suffer go to Hell for their sings, instead to Heaven, where live is good. The people were afraid, so they did as they were told. They paid for the pardons, they were even buying things like ''Holy Marys tears'', because the Church was selling them and told the people they are real. Gosh how i like Martin Luther and the Reform of the Church

Well two more examples from the everyday life.

There is a man who gets really really sick. He knows he won't survive, that he will die of his sickness soon. He is afraid of the pain and death. What is there left for him on this world? Religion? Well, i think yes. If not else, the religion gives you a new hope, helps you deal with the pain and kind of prepares you for death.

And one more.

My mother and my father are divorced, because my father fell in love with another woman. My mother was really down. She even wanted to kill herself at that time, as she told me later. My father wanted to throw us out of the house, since it's his. She feared for what would happen, if he would really do that. If he would do that we would have like nowhere to live. Because of that depression she started to going to Church. She went there every single Sunday. She found there some kind of support for her problems.

So my conclusion is that religion is fear.



What do you think?

[sabro]

Religion may or may not be fear, but God is love.

Fear can get you to do all kinds of stupid or crazy things... sometimes it can even get you to do good things... And perhaps fear of God is the beginning of knowlege. But only God can bring true peace, love and healing and forgiveness. It is expressed in the service and love of others. Such a relationship with God cannot be based in fear, but must be based on love.

Religion however is probably a lot more than just fear. It seems like an oversimplification.

[Goldiegirl]

I am afraid of religion.

[Anchyyy]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

I am afraid of religion.

@Sabro: i think only a human being can bring to himself peace, love and healing and forgiveness. Your happiness, your destiny is your hands.

[a51ts4]

This topic reminds me of the movie "Picnic". I hear people often say "Religion is for the weak". At some points, I believed that, and sometimes still do. But not in a sadistic way.

Then again, it depends on what religion you believe in & how much you know about it. In the US, there are lots of people calling themselves christian and such, but haven't even read the bible :/

[Anchyyy]

Originally Posted by a51ts4

I hear people often say "Religion is for the weak". At some points, I believed that, and sometimes still do. But not in a sadistic way.

If you need help, if you don't know how to solve a problem; that does not always mean that you are weak. You just don't know how to go on.

Originally Posted by a51ts4

In the US, there are lots of people calling themselves christian and such, but haven't even read the bible :/

Well i have a feeling that happens everywhere in the world. My grandmother is the same. But she goes to church every Sunday.

[Void]

Sabro: i think only a human being can bring to himself peace, love and healing and forgiveness. Your happiness, your destiny is your hands.

if it was that simple and easy we would never need psychologists and psychoanalytics of all sorts. The example with your mom that you`ve brought shows that in very sressful situations it is often hard to find a way out, no matter how strong you are. It might be not fear but confusion as well.

As Sabro said you are oversimplifying the role of religion in human life (on
individual level and for the society). But you are young and got plenty of time to learn more on a subject ;)

[KirinMan]

if it was that simple and easy we would never need psychologists and psychoanalytics of all sorts.

I personally don't think they are necessary even today. Society has made these "professionals" an integral part of life and living today. However, humankind has been around for thousands of years without any help from psychologists and psychoanalytics, and I believe will be around many thousands more without their "guidance" as well. But they have to justify their existance and they need to feed their families as well, so if some people choose to believe in their "therapy" all the better for them, I'll pass.

People created religion, and people are what make religion what it is today. God is a very personal subject and in my opinion needs no interpretation from an intermediary.

[RockLee]

Sometimes we let our emotions get the upper hand, and once you put emotions before reasoning, you do stupid things :[

[Void]

I personally don't think they are necessary even today. Society has made these "professionals" an integral part of life and living today. However, humankind has been around for thousands of years without any help from psychologists and psychoanalytics, and I believe will be around many
thousands more without their "guidance" as well. But they have to justify
their existance and they need to feed their families as well, so if some people
choose to believe in their "therapy" all the better for them, I'll pass.

one more simplification
First of all - society is not just an abstract category. All of us together constitute the thing called society. And if such category as "psycho...ists" exist that means there is certain need in them. I believe they are "integral" part of so-called "western world" (and maybe, not of all parts of it). Even in my country this group is just trying to gain a place under the sun, people are not willing to accept their help as an "integral". Why? it is a subject of different thread, i suppose. I only can speak for myself - so far i`ve managed to survive without their help and solve my problems.

As one of my friends (psychiatrist, btw) said: "Psychiatrists help those whose frame of mind in a negative zone (using "-1 0 +1" gauge model), they bring it to neutral point (which is zero here). The task of psychologists is to bring individual spirits into positive zone". Well, it doesn`t cover all the specific aspects of either field, but at least defines the area of their work.

For thousands of years people when their mind was distracted had come after
advice to philosophers, religious scholars, their spiritual fathers and such. So, they weren`t well without someone`s guidance, ne? Maybe, to some extent all those "psycho...ists" are modern "clones" of above categories only with stronger scientific backgrounds.

"to believe in their "therapy" all the better for them" it is a half of a problem solved, isn`t it? It is said that good psychologist doesn`t give the answer, but helps one to find it and solve a problem oneself. (Well, no one stated the available number of such true psychologists, bu still...)

God is a very personal subject and in my opinion needs no interpretation from an intermediary.

As long as every single human doesn`t feel the same there always will be religions and "psycho...ists" (we do not take into account other reasons behind existance of these categories)

Sometimes we let our emotions get the upper hand, and once you put
emotions before reasoning, you do stupid things :[

reasoning before emotions can be as well dreadful Extremes, probably, this is what matters, that`s why there always was a search of golden mean. At the same time golden balance means stagnation. Everything is good in its place

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by Obeika

I personally don't think they are necessary even today. Society has made these "professionals" an integral part of life and living today. However, humankind has been around for thousands of years without any help from psychologists and psychoanalytics, and I believe will be around many thousands more without their "guidance" as well. But they have to justify their existance and they need to feed their families as well, so if some people choose

Humans also existed tens of thousands of years without modern, professionalized medicine. The only difference was with a diagnosable physical ailment the patient was either given a snake oil treatment by a certified quack or told to go home and pray not to die.

Up until the not so distant past, anyone with the misfortune of a misunderstood mental disorder or so-called 'disability, which could include nothing more than being deemed 'different' or 'deviant' was fair game for social neglect at best and horrific abuse at worst. Maltreatment by your own family and society to the point of what would today pass as torture in many cases. It wasn't like in the 'good old says' a person needing advice or a sympathetic ear could always rely on an understanding friend or kindly words of wisdom from the parish priest.

Sure, some people overrely on psychologists, others overely on doctors to cure their own self-created medical problems. Doesn't mean that millions of
patients haven't been helped to a more stable and productive life in either case...

[Elizabeth]

So my conclusion is that religion is fear. What do you think?

Have you ever studied Eastern religion or culture ? Therefore, I concur with everyone else that fear as an explanation is a serious oversimplification.

If that were the only motive, you'd find religiousity spread evenly across every culture and continent in the world. How can 99% of Japanese get away with barely giving it a thought their entire lives ? They aren't as afraid of dying as Americans, aren't as depressed, or have their own homegrown, exotic, esoteric strategies for finding meaning in their lives ? I can say with absolute certainty, as a people, they are not more independent or self-reliant than Westerners...

[Philip]

I don't think religion is fear. Maybe they choose religion, because they are afraid of something, maybe a sickness etc. and they need something they can hold on to. Thus gaining comfort. Some people also choose religion for guidance, if they need help for making a difficult choice etc. But I don't think religion is fear, in our society.

[Sarapva]

Originally Posted by Anchyyy

Is religion fear? Do people believe in something because they are afraid?

Maybe "needing strength" defines it better than fear. I think people turn to religion sometimes when they're in a difficult situation, like your mother was, and need to find a source of strength outside themselves.

[Mycernius]

You will, of course, get several different answers on this depending on peoples beliefs. Sabro will answer in the negative because he is a strong believer in God and his religion. Non-believers will answer in the positive because they do not believe in God and some would have been driven to this set of beliefs because of bad experiences when they were young. Despite my own non-beliefs I will try and approach this in a fairly objective way.
Relgion is a mixture of both fear and a set of respect or morals set about by early human societies. The fear aspect comes about because we are mortal and we fear death. Because of our sense of self we feel that there must be more to life than just life. A need to feel that we must go onto something better is needed. A Part of religion is to build an area of when we die that we mgo to a better place. The thing is that these places must have the people of your own society within them and not people who you don't get on with, and so you end up with the differences regarding Good and Evil. Christians say you will go to hell unless you accept Jesus as your saviour, thus they ensure that their version of the afterlife will only have likeminded people there. The rest of the non-believers are punished. A fear is created to make people follow and obey.
Society does not rely on fear alone though. A set of morals and rules are also set up. Some are for getting on with you fellow neighbour, others, such as the Jewish and Musilm probation of pork, is more health orientated. In an early, non-sceintific community the best way to get people to accept these rules is to mention they were set in motion by the Gods. It is not fear of the gods that make people follow them, but the fact that the gods created humans and would want the best for their creations. The best way to homour that god is to follow their rules. Thoses who transgress usually end up in a tight spot and get punished by their own stupidity ie: Jewish man A eats pork and promptly gets food poisoning. It enforces the idea that a god is protecting them and that the transgressor is punished for it.
As we have advanced we now know the reason for these rules imposed on society. You don't eat pork in warm countries because pigs can carry a lot of human diseases for example. Now adays it gives comfort to people who think there is a higher being watching over them. A father figure to look up to and protect. You are not totally afraid of your parents, but you will still respect either of them. God equals a parent. Religion equals a parents rules.

[sabro]

There are lots of motivators: Fear is a big one, but not the only one. Certainly one can embrace religion out of fear or weakness and why not? People that are afraid- find comfort and people that are weak- find strength. Certainty and connection are perfect motivators and religion is an appropriate answer. Avoiding pain, unpleasantness, shame or embarrassment are real powerful motivators. Love, and pleasure, in every culture are all other motivators... deep seated human psychological needs: the need to belong, to be significant, to be part of something larger, for direction, purpose or explanation of origin, to be connected, to be certain... Religion can appropriately answer each of these. But to say that religion IS fear... It doesn't adequately define or explain the experience of millions and millions of passionate adherents who's lives have been enriched.

As for my faith, it isn't based in fear: "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love." --1 John 4:18

"For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of wisdom." II Timothy 1:7

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by sabro

There are lots of motivators: Fear is a big one, but not the only one. Certainly one can embrace religion out of fear or weakness and why not? People that are afraid- find comfort and people that are weak- find strength. Certainty and connection are perfect motivators and religion is an appropriate answer. Avoiding pain, unpleasantness, shame or embarrassment are real powerful motivators. Love, and pleasure, in every culture are all other motivators... deep seated human psychological needs: the need to belong, to be significant, to be part of something larger, for direction, purpose or explanation of origin, to be connected, to be certain... Religion can appropriately answer each of these. But to say that religion IS fear... It doesn't adequately define or explain the experience of millions and millions of passionate adherents who's lives have been enriched.
As for my faith, it isn't based in fear: "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love." --1 John 4:18
"For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of wisdom." II Timothy 1:7

The prime motivation for basing a life on any belief system should be because the person deeply, passionately, knowledgably and objectively believes it. In other words, accepts the theology and that the events said to have occured happened as they have been historically recorded. That's pretty much the only intellectually honest answer in my opinion.

Coming to religion out of a need to make your life meaningful is nice but religion is about the communion between a world body and the divine -- not made more or less real by enhancing any one life in particular. It's a very ecumenical statement, now that I think about it, though.

Explore the history and practices of any faith tradition or denomination practically at random and feel a sense of belonging, an immediate connection with something larger than yourself....

[Kinsao]

I haven't read the whole thread, just the OP and a quick skim.

Is religion fear? I think it depends on the individual person, what they are believing, what they are doing in practice, and what they are thinking and feeling.

It is often said that people only were/are 'religious' in following an organised religion because they're afraid of going to hell. But since there is no proof that hell exists, it would seem to make more sense for the afraid people to not believe in it. Certainly, if it's so scary, why choose to believe in it if there is no proof it is real at all?!

Anyway, I'm drifting from my own thought process.

Personally I think it is very difficult to believe in 'life after death', and I can't understand why people who do so are often accused of using it as a 'crutch' or as some kind of 'comfort'. I would much rather think that there is nothing after our death, so that our actions and behaviour in this life do not have any consequences that we will experience beyond our lifetime. To think that our actions in our lifetime might have eternal consequences is actually quite scary and a big responsibility. So in that sense, for people who take that seriously I certainly don't think religion is born of fear, or weakness, or 'running away from life'. I think that requires quite a strong person, or someone who is at least trying their best to be strong.

However on the other side you have also those people who follow a religion blindly out of fear; perhaps from fear of rejection from their family, friends and/or culture, and the resulting insecurities. But their motivation isn't a 'thinking' motivation at all, is it? It's just an obedience without their intellect behind it.

Some people might be weak or afraid and 'turn to religion' to find strength. For instance, they might find a feeling of strength that they are not on their own, that there is 'something' else 'on their side', so to speak. This might be because they are a weak person, or it might be that their circumstances are extraordinarily difficult, far beyond what most people experience in their lives, enough to test anyone's strength. Hmmmm, I think that feeling your weakness isn't necessarily the same as feeling afraid. Also, if religion can give people some strength that they need, actually it must have some property of strength. Personally, I think if someone needs help, and needs to 'borrow' extra strength from some kind of force outside of themselves, it doesn't matter a damn as long as they get the strength they need. From where, who cares? And, really, even if it is 'all in their mind', they are still drawing that strength from somewhere, aren't they?

My thought process is going nowhere near the subject any more.

[Sarapva]

Originally Posted by Kinsao

Personally I think it is very difficult to believe in 'life after death', and I can't understand why people who do so are often accused of using it as a 'crutch' or as some kind of 'comfort'. I would much rather think that there is nothing after our death, so that our actions and behaviour in this life do not have any consequences that we will experience beyond our lifetime. To think that our actions in our lifetime might have eternal consequences is actually quite scary and a big responsibility.

Lots of good thoughts on the subject, Kinsao! I've often thought this myself about believing in life after death. I personally believe in it, and it doesn't seem like a "crutch" to me - it's an added responsibility. If I believed that our lives ended after our physical existence was over, it would take away the burden of feeling that what I do in this life has consequences.

I think that when a person feels "weak" he is actually getting to something important in his life. It's said that a courageous person isn't one who doesn't feel fear, but one who takes action in spite of fear. I think when a person feels weak and tries to find some strength, this is what makes them strong; a person isn't necessarily strong who has never felt any weakness.

[Goldiegirl]

I gave a short answer at first, but none the less it;s true. But, I don't think religion is fear unless that's what you want or are looking for. I think religion can be anything you want to make out of it. Some people go to religion because they need fear in their lives; some people find religion to be hope and salvation, a remedy for their fears; still others find religion a way to find peace. I guess any relegion, or any spiritual following can mean vastly different things to people. What some find fear others will call faith...it's all a matter of perspective. I don't follow any particular religion as I was "force fed" catholicism for years. I grew to resent that and the fact that the relgion was based more on church doctrine and not the actual bible. But I am a spiritual person. I believe in a higher entity (God) but you can call him/her whatever you want...I just chose the name God because it's what I know. I do believe that Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha were divinely inspired people, but that it isn't necessary to pick.

[yukio_michael]

I'm unaware of who said it, but it was the precursor to a poem by Anne Sexton (the source was unknown there as well), but someone once said that If religion were a dream, than it was a dream worth dreaming....

I won't talk about my personal beliefs as far as religion goes, but try to talk mainly about the idea of religion itself and what it may or may not have achieved, or rather caused inadvertently... we all know that people do things in the name of religion that are far from what any of us would call noble acts.

Regardless, lets look at the history of religion, we can say that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, all appeared around the same time, give or take a few hundred years, and share some of the same characters and names...

I'm not going to try to give the merits of any religion, because I don't want to be insulting to anyone practicing any particular religion, but I will talk about my perceived function of those religions at that particular time...

Religion as it were, can be seen as a means of controlling, or passifying, no, not really passifying, but directing a group of people for whom there were no standard mores or guides for living... There is an excelent line at the end of the book/movie The Last Temptation of Christ, where Judas Iscariot, the "supposed" traitor to Jesus, whom many scholars seem to feel is in actuality, Jesus's most important apostle, and only true friend, whom is chosen specifically by God, to deliver Jesus to crucifixion, and ultimate resurrection to save man... In the text he tells Jesus, as Jesus himself tries to tell the people of Gethsemani, that his life & teachings should be ignorned... Judas's response is that, there is nothing for it, that there is nothing else for them now, and that this is the only thing that will help them survive, and thrive, a meaning for living moreso than simply existance.

The idea that religion is fear is rooted in the notion of a Heaven & a Hell, so we can't really say that all relgion is fear... since many religions do not promote such ideas, though, being born again is as much of a hell for Buddhists in concept. The idea is that we de-couple our actions from the ideas of heaven and hell and do them because we think that they are right, rather than the idea that if we do not do them, we will be sent to an eternal hell.

The most effective religions, ones which control a population, say Islam, or ancient Judaism, or modern Orthodoxical Judaism, rely on Orthodoxy, "non-thought" to drive people to make decisions mindlessly, in the honour of their own religion... I say they are effective, because religion is a means of living, like government is a means for providing services for, and collecting taxes from, a certain population.

Orthodoxy, like George Orwell spoke of in 1984, requires no thought, just the simple belief that what is told to us is true... in fact, it negates thought, it negates question. In that aspect, many acts in religion can be done out of fear of the consequences of our own discretions....

It's a fairly broad concept, and so I'll stop right here, I just wanted to throw in a few cents to the discussion...

[Mars Man]

There have been many good points raised here, a number of deep questions posed, and some very worthwhile comments made. It kind of reminds me of those old stomping grounds.

Firstly, Anchyyy san, I'd like to encourage you, as some others have too, to keep learning and studying in this field--it is very interesting. Then, I'd simply like to make an effort to adjust English usage of the word 'religion.'

Some of you will know that I like to make a clear distinction between this word 'religion' and the word 'belief-system.' Taking an educated guess, I'd say the OP had been referring to the latter term. As far as I have read and studied, religiosity is basically a hardwired human neurological element--as far as studies have shown. (the Great Apes may have it too?) In that the human brain is hardwired to tend towards religiousity, in much the same way that it's generally (each person is different and there will be varying degrees--some possibly almost totally lacking) hardwired towards altruism, we can catagorize that aspect of the human makeup as an emotion. In this way, religiosity and fear are the same--viz. emotions. (please do not construe that I am saying fear=religiosity, I am saying fear=emotion AND religiosity=emotion)

Belief-systems may have very exactly arisen from the fact of human emotion (and I personally hold to that understanding) and to that extent, would cater to the emotion of the culture that gave birth to that particular belief-system. Whatever cultural spins have been put on the tenets of any particular belief-system through the passage of time, would be due to the same.

Once we allow ourselves to step back from the stage upon which the belief-systems act, and in as pragmatic, objective, and logical a manner as humanly possible test the validity of each system against the others and each one against what can be known as being the most likely state of the universe, we, as the entirity of the human experience, may very well come to grasp the connection between emotion and world view, and what that can mean for humanity beyond the belief-systems of the ancients.

Then we can apply our more positive emotions more freely, I reason, and our belief-system will become more singular and unified. That should mean a reduction in the kind of fear that the OP was asking about.

ps One poster mentiond about Christians not reading the 'Bible', but you'd have to keep in mind that none of those whose writings (and copies of writings) made it into that book, read that book either !

[Anohito]

Originally Posted by Anchyyy

Well, i had a class about different religions. A bit of history too lol. So let's start!

Is religion fear? Do people believe in something because they are afraid?
That was our main question today. [snip]

I must state frankly that I am not comfortable with the question as is it worded. I really think that history shows that the issue is much more complex than that. I do not say that as any sort of fan of religion, quite the opposite.

Fear is often an important component of religion, but there are other factors. For example, religion is far too often used to enable people to feel not only that they are better than people who do not worship the same religion, but that good things will happen to the True Believers and bad things will happen to those who are not True Believers. Too often, religion is used to create attitudes like, "I am Theologically Correct, and you are not, so you will suffer for it!" This sort of attitude frequently occurs when people quote self-congratulatory rhetoric from the religious writings of their religion. I am sure that just aobut any holy book contains plenty of self-congratulatory rhetoric for True Believers to quote. The so-called "sense of community" often used to praise religion is usually a euphemism for a sense of superiority. I myself have often heard clergy flatter their congregations for supposedly worshipping the right religion. Yes, clergy often scold their congregations for not contibuting enough money, but than they can turn right around and tell them how wonderful it is that they are Theologically Correct.

While it is true that religion is a complex matter, I do not mean to underestimate the extent to which fear is used in religious propaganda. A particularly repulsive example in the USA is the "Left Behind" series of books and movies. Some Christians may protest that the "End Times" idea is a relatively recent phenomenon and not really supported by scripture. That's as may be, but the phenomenon is quite popular in many circles and is too often treated as a legitimate religious "point of view" and not as intellectual terrorism.

[Mars Man]

Originally Posted by Anohito

Some Christians may protest that the "End Times" idea is a relatively recent phenomenon and not really supported by scripture. That's as may be, but the phenomenon is quite popular in many circles and is too often treated as a legitimate religious "point of view" and not as intellectual terrorism.

Just to point out a fact before I go to bed, here, Chiliasm and apocalyptic movements are very old, even before Christianity really go the get up and go, and are well atested to by written works among those that eventually ended up in our Bible of today. It's not anything new at all--though there may be some new spins put on it.

[Anohito]

Originally Posted by Mars Man

Just to point out a fact before I go to bed, here, Chiliasm and apocalyptic movements are very old, even before Christianity really go the get up and go, and are well atested to by written works among those that eventually ended up in our Bible of today. It's not anything new at all--though there may be some new spins put on it.

I did specifically mention the "Left Behind" series, but perhaps to be excruciatingly clear I should have modified the term "end times" in some fashion.

At any rate, there is plenty of criticism of the version of the "end times" that is promoted by the Left Behind series and other religious pundits of that ilk, criticism particularly of the idea of the Rapture. Here are some relevant URLs:

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2005/berkowitz0205.html
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bi...tem=1103842675
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bi...tem=1103842675
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d760201.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Expose...8913779&sr=8-1