International Whaling Commission meeting on May 28

[Sarapva]

The International Whaling Commission will be meeting in Anchorage, Alaska on May 28 to decide whether to lift the global ban on commercial whaling (which Japan and a few other countries have never really complied with). The ban has been in place since 1986. What does everyone here think? Should the ban be lifted? I personally hope it isn't - I think whales and fish are endangered enough as it is.

[made of stone]

Originally Posted by Sarapva

The International Whaling Commission will be meeting in Anchorage, Alaska on May 28 to decide whether to lift the global ban on commercial whaling (which Japan and a few other countries have never really complied with). The ban has been in place since 1986. What does everyone here think? Should the ban be lifted? I personally hope it isn't - I think whales and fish are endangered enough as it is.

This may be a silly question, Sarapva san, but what difference does it make if the ban is lifted...if Japan and other countries have never taken any notice of it in the first place?

Isn't it really obsolete??!

Originally Posted by Sarapva

The International Whaling Commission will be meeting in Anchorage, Alaska on May 28 to decide whether to lift the global ban on commercial whaling (which Japan and a few other countries have never really complied with). The ban has been in place since 1986. What does everyone here think? Should the ban be lifted? I personally hope it isn't - I think whales and fish are endangered enough as it is.

Would you kindly give us a link? Thank you.

[Goldiegirl]

Whaling sucks. We humans will eat ourselves into oblivion and extinction.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

I hope for the reopening of commercial whaling.

[leonmarino]

I have never quite understood why whaling is so bad. Are they such an important part of the maritime eco-system?

Being a liberal (in the European sense, so in favor of decreasing state control), I'd say lift the ban.

[Sarapva]

Originally Posted by made of stone

This may be a silly question, Sarapva san, but what difference does it make if the ban is lifted...if Japan and other countries have never taken any notice of it in the first place?
Isn't it really obsolete??!

I think this is similar to the argument about legalizing drugs - saying that it's "okay" would probably lead to more use. It's heartening to know that a majority of countries have voted against commercial whaling, making those that still do earn the reputation of beings "bandits" in a way. Subsistence whaling by cultures that depend on whales for survival is one thing, and not likely to wipe out any whale species, but commercial whaling for people who don't need the whales to survive seems like such a waste of resources, and of course takes a toll on the whale population.

Here is a link to the International Whaling Commission:

http://www.iwcoffice.org/meetings/meeting2007.htm

And here is a link to stopwhaling.org:

http://www.stopwhaling.org/site/c.fo...al_Welfare.htm

[made of stone]

Originally Posted by Sarapva

I think this is similar to the argument about legalizing drugs - saying that it's "okay" would probably lead to more use. It's heartening to know that a majority of countries have voted against commercial whaling, making those that still do earn the reputation of beings "bandits" in a way. Subsistence whaling by cultures that depend on whales for survival is one thing, and not likely to wipe out any whale species, but commercial whaling for people who don't need the whales to survive seems like such a waste of resources, and of course takes a toll on the whale population.

I cannot thank you enough for that reply Sarapva! Your analogy brought me a deeper level of looking at not only this topic, but in fact different themes (perhaps) in life ...

My personal philosophical travels aside; you have brought to my mind that various studies have indicated, here in the UK, that one significant driving-force behind the desire to take these substances is, in actual fact, the very notion that they are illicit, dangerous, rebellious and/or deviant

I am just speculating to a large extent here, and although i'm posing these things as questions, I really don't expect answers. BUT (and it is a significant but!) is there some sense in which we can see the reaction of the Japanese Government on the issue of 'whaling' to be merely an assertion of self-identity, (i.e. as the way they have always done things), perhaps even strength? - if you like, a two fingers up at the force of the West that has neutered Japan politically (to an extent; and in a regional sense more so) and certainly in military terms, since WW2?

I posit these ideas just because I got a sense of them from some of my older Japanese friends. That whaling was traditional, and part of that traditional diet. That they didn't care too much for the taste, but that they felt through history that it should be their choice. If we gave them that choice, and tried to approach things in less confrontational a manner, might that not work???



Just some ideas...

mos

[Han Chan]

I think that the ban or regulation of whaling should be based on sound scientific data. As whales are mamals they reproduce much slower than fish. I think that great caution should be taken, but I think that some limited harvesting of the least endangered spiecies should be possible.

For more factual info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling...gainst_whaling

[Goldiegirl]

I like how we use the word harvest when what is meant is killing. I guess it sounds better. I don't believe we harvest animals, we harvest corn, apples etc, but we slaughter animals. I'm not opposed to people eating meat, I am opposed to slow, painfull deaths.

[Han Chan]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

I like how we use the word harvest when what is meant is killing. I guess it sounds better. I don't believe we harvest animals, we harvest corn, apples etc, but we slaughter animals. I'm not opposed to people eating meat, I am opposed to slow, painfull deaths.

Harvest is often used when talking about utilizing fish and whale stock. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_stock
I am also opposed to slow, painfull deaths, but as I do like to eat meat and fish I have to accept that some animals are killed. My point is that advise should be taken from scientists.

Goldiegirl, you wrote this in an other thread: "When you are in a war you strike where you will do the most damage. Whether innocent people or not get killed isn't even an issue. At that time just being Japanese you were the enemy. So yes, they were enemies."
It seems to me like you are more compationate towards animals than people?

[bakaKanadajin]

I posit these ideas just because I got a sense of them from some of my older Japanese friends. That whaling was traditional, and part of that traditional diet. That they didn't care too much for the taste, but that they felt through history that it should be their choice. If we gave them that choice, and tried to approach things in less confrontational a manner, might that not work???

My knowledge of this is very limited but I'll throw 2 more cents in. A decent article on whaling appeared in the Metropolis recently and it attempted to gauge the Japanese public's feelings on whaling. For many of the older generation as you pointed out whale was a traditional part of the diet, especially during war time when meat was scarce. Many older people remember it as being fatty, rubbery and nothing special. The article left me feeling that they are simply nostalgic about their elementary school days moreso than the delicacy of whale itself.

The author of the article did some research and found that tons of frozen whale meat already exists and more whaling is not necessary in order to provide the meat to those few who enjoy it. Continuned whaling activities seem to be aimed at allowing fishing communities to continue traditional Japanese practices, not to meet demand.

As far as public information goes, in Tsukiji a spokeswoman for whale meat stated (this is not from the article this was an experience my friend had one morning) that whaling was in fact permitted for 'scientific research' and that the Japanese were endorsed by various organizations and NGO's on these grounds. This was obvious misinformation as the objection to Japanese whaling is quite broad and well-known. Also omitted was the practice of dolphin hunting and how it is often part of the 'traditional' practices of these same fisherman.

To repsond to your ideas, allowing these fisherman to continue doesn't have a huge amount of modern popular support, it would seem. Current indifference towards the taste and experience of whale meat itself by the public combined with an abundance of frozen stocks makes further killing of whales unnecessary. I suppose it comes down to pure national pride in traditions, but I think as I mentioned in a previous post, responsibility for endangered species and the greater common good have to factor in somewhere. The traditions of a few small fishing communities trumping the greater good of an endangered species' right to existence and well-being, especially with such low demand, doesnt seem correct.

[KirinMan]

Goldiegirl, you wrote this in an other thread: "When you are in a war you strike where you will do the most damage. Whether innocent people or not get killed isn't even an issue. At that time just being Japanese you were the enemy. So yes, they were enemies."
It seems to me like you are more compationate towards animals than people?

I wonder what context this was originally written in, link please, because from the majority of posts that I have read from Goldiegirl I never got the impression that she valued or was more compationate towards animals than people.

Taken out of context in relationship to the thread that it was originally posted in the phrase could possibly be misconstrued or misunderstood.

Animals as you know are not going to fire a weapon at you so in that sense what Goldiegirl wrote here makes plenty of sense to me at least.

[Goldiegirl]

The point of that thread was about war and the "savage killing of 100,000 people in Tokyo". When it's war there is death that was the point. We are not in war with whales the last that I knew. As I wrote as well, I have no problem with people eating meat.

[KirinMan]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

We are not in war with whales the last that I knew.

I get the feeling that there are people out there that would disagree with you here. Personally I agree with you and thank you for clarifying the possible misconception.

Also and not to belittle in any way shape or form the concerns the OP has about whales but to me at least it is nice to see that you Goldiegirl "care" about us humans too.

[Goldiegirl]

I do care about humans! I care about them almost as much as animals!

[FrustratedDave]

Originally Posted by Hiroyuki Nagashima

I hope for the reopening of commercial whaling.

I ask in respect for your oppinion but Why?
This is why I am I hope the ban is not lifted.
"WARNING THIS VIDEO IS OF GRAPHIC NATURE"
http://www.glumbert.com/media/dolphin

[bakaKanadajin]

Originally Posted by FrustratedDave

I ask in respect for your oppinion but Why?
This is why I am I hope the ban is not lifted.
"WARNING THIS VIDEO IS OF GRAPHIC NATURE"
http://www.glumbert.com/media/dolphin

Horrible. I feel ashamed to be part Japanese after watching that.

[FrustratedDave]

First I want to say I love my wife and my family, her family ,my friends and also love living here in Japan. (My wife and family are Japanese)

But ,there is a general level of exceptance here they some of us (western society) find disconcerting. Check these vids out and tell me what everyone thinks?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3_-t...%2F%3Fp%3D1660

http://www.break.com/index/very-fresh-fish.html

It is all about money and nothing else. I choose not to have an oppinion on these last vids, so I will leave it up to you guys to say what you think. BTW, I am no PETA freak either.

[KirinMan]

Originally Posted by FrustratedDave

First I want to say I love my wife and my family, her family ,my friends and also love living here in Japan. (My wife and family are Japanese)
But ,there is a general level of exceptance here they some of us (western society) find disconcerting. Check these vids out and tell me what everyone thinks?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3_-t...%2F%3Fp%3D1660
http://www.break.com/index/very-fresh-fish.html
It is all about money and nothing else. I choose not to have an oppinion on these last vids, so I will leave it up to you guys to say what you think. BTW, I am no PETA freak either.

The top one was Japanese, yet if I am mistaken the bottom one was from a Chinese restaurant. Either way well I may be in a minority here but they are just fish, and I enjoy eating them. I really do not care about how they feel only how they taste. Like I said people may not agree with my opinions or thoughts about this but to me it wasnt a big deal.

This is why I am I hope the ban is not lifted.
"WARNING THIS VIDEO IS OF GRAPHIC NATURE"
http://www.glumbert.com/media/dolphin

Why is it people get more upset, angry or bothered by the size or the type of fish that is being killed? Whales, dolphins or porpises seem to be on everyones list of mammal's or fish that shouldn't be culled, harvested, fished, or killed. Choose the word that you agree with. It's food, and other than the size of the "catch" fisherman the world over net literally tons of smaller fish everyday and almost noone gives a damn about how they are processed.

Is it the size that bothers people? What if those were all sharks, would people give a damn about them?

I'm sorry I don't agree that the video was that "graphic", unless of course you are a person that is bothered by seeing large fish being killed in large numbers.

I'm sorry, Once again I may be in the minority here on this but in my opinion it really isn't that big of a deal and have a hard time getting bothered by seeing it. There was a thread here on the subject of killing baby seals, that was only for the skins, nothing else, at least here the meat of the dolphins killed is processed for food and people buy it. I've eaten the dried dolphin jerky that was jerked with a teriyaki flavor, pretty damn good if you ask me, just a bit too expensive for my budget. Tastes great with a cold beer too!

To me it just looked like a decent haul by the fishermen that day.

[bakaKanadajin]

Not quite as bad as the dolphins, but still a little disturbing.

The dolphin slaughter along with Western livestock slaughterhouses are probably the most alarming due to the high intelligence level of the animals vs. the amount of suffering they endure. It may sound harsh to downplay whats happening to these poor fish but these fish simply don't have the same capacity for emotions and suffering. That does not make it right, but some relativity is unavoidable. On the other hand we know that dolphins, whales, and after more recent research cows too are highly intelligent. I think for many, the killing of whales and dolphins is especially upsetting because we are only now beginning to understand how deep their social interactions and communicative ability could potentially be. Dolphins and whales have also never been a widespread staple of the human diet to the degree that livestock are, and are not domesticated either, making it seem even more unnecessary and cruel.

[KirinMan]

Originally Posted by bakaKanadajin

Not quite as bad as the dolphins, but still a little disturbing.
The dolphin slaughter along with Western livestock slaughterhouses are probably the most alarming due to the high intelligence level of the animals vs. the amount of suffering they endure. It may sound harsh to downplay whats happening to these poor fish but these fish simply don't have the same capacity for emotions and suffering. That does not make it right, but some relativity is unavoidable. On the other hand we know that dolphins, whales, and after more recent research cows too are highly intelligent. I think for many, the killing of whales and dolphins is especially upsetting because we are only now beginning to understand how deep their social interactions and communicative ability could potentially be. Dolphins and whales have also never been a widespread staple of the human diet to the degree that livestock are, and are not domesticated either, making it seem even more unnecessary and cruel.

Intelligence of the animal or fish to me still doesn't make a difference to me. Heck even cockroaches are intelligent enough to run or, in the case of here in Okinawa, fly away when someone swings a rolled newspaper at them.

I think a part of the problem that goes beyond the issue of how intelligent the "whatever" that is being killed is the literally bloody manner with which is was or is done. Something about the blood in my opinion that bothers people, that along with I guess the "intelligence" of the "whatever".

I am pretty sure that if there was a method that didn't cost anything and produced the same results people would be willing to use it to kill the "whatever" in question. In the video the fishermen used their knives to kill the dolphins without damaging the meat, which btw as everyone knows is the product. That may not be the neatest way but it is the most efficient way for the money that they probably know.

[FrustratedDave]

I did not listen to them with the sound on so I did not know the last one was from china.
I was going to say my bit ,but I could not be bothered. But whales and dolphins are not a sustainable food source or did you already know that?

[KirinMan]

But whales and dolphins are not a sustainable food source or did you already know that?

Outside of Japan and Iceland who else in the world wants to, or actually does hunt whales or dolphins? I have heard news that make claims that the source is non sustainable, however from the news I remember reading about the whaling here in Japan the Japanese are not suggesting that they will hunt the whales to extinction.

Greenpeas' and other enviromental organizations, to me anyway, like to make it appear that the Japanese want to harvest every last living whale on the planet. I dont think that is true.

Putting limitations on the number and species to me would be fine, then the food source would be sustainable. There are fishing areas throughout the world where there are limits placed on the number of fish or crustaceans that are allowed to be caught or harvested.

The same could be done in my opinion for Japan in regards to the whale issue as well.

[Sarapva]

I don't know how I missed all these posts yesterday! I must have been online too early!

Originally Posted by made of stone

If we gave them that choice, and tried to approach things in less confrontational a manner, might that not work???

Just some ideas...
mos

mos - This is a good point, and I'm glad you put it in this light. The Japanese continuing whaling could be a reactionary thing or done in defiance. But I don't think any decisions should be made based on the traditions of only one country. The whaling ban is a worldwide ban, so most countries had agreed with it (and I hope they still do when they vote again this week). At the most, some leniency could be given to Japan because it's such an old tradition, but I think that's already been done. I think Japan should show more respect for the rest of the world and comply as much as possible with something a majority of countries voting have decided.

FrustratedDave - I've seen the dolphin hunt video, and I couldn't watch the other links you had. Any video about any suffering, big animal or small, leaves me horrified, depressed and angry for a few days (at least) afterward. Obeika had a good point, that there are millions of small fish caught and processed that probably feel as much pain and suffering as the dolphins and whales. This is why I don't eat any flesh foods anymore, not wanting to support anything that causes that kind of suffering. Whether anything is intelligent or not, if it's alive it can probably feel pain. When we humans have the power to increase or decrease that pain, why don't we choose to decrease it? I don't understand how any human could continue to cause pain after becoming aware that something is feeling pain. Compassion is what separates us from animals after all, isn't it - the ability to empathize and "feel" what another is feeling.