Perpetually Foreign

[Dogen Z]

In my cruise through cyber space on this rainy night in Tokyo, I came across this site and thought it might be useful to post it here.
It's about how Asian Americans are perceived by in the U.S. (not by everyone, mind you, but I think it hits the nail for many people).

democracyweb.com/asian/media/foreign

Here is the link.
http://www.democracyweb.com/asian/media/foreign.htm

[yukio_michael]

I get a 404 on that link (posted before the second link was posted), maybe I'm being dumb here... I'm curious though how you think Asian foreigners are perceived... If they are perceived any certain way in the United States, it's by their own insular activities.

A good deal of Korean, Chinese, & Viet Namese residents, in the places that I have visited have gone out of their way to remain insular, rather than to dilute their culture and become "Americanized" if you will.

I don't have any big problem with that--- As I've spoken in other threads this is natural... And, this country, the United States, is particularly open to that sort of cultural bonding. Not so in Japan, where they wipe Korean town names off the map and replace them with Japanese names. You exist in Japan as Japanese, foreign, or not at all, regardless of your race.

I'll relate my visit to New York again here... In the Lower East Side, no one thinks of China Town as a "group of foreigners", Forget it Jake, it's China Town... New York is especially accepting to foreigners... You can be living there for a few months, and essentially, you're a "New Yorker" not some visiting foreigner, which can't be said of other countries (especially Japan).

Then there are Asians who come to the United States, not just for the resources provided, but to live a different life than they did in their own countries, speaking fluent English, starting businesses, adopting western ways... Are they thought any more so as foreign? It's their ability to break away from the natural instinct to bond to their own, and establish a personal identity--- though of course, they too still bond with members of their own cultural origins.

Asians are as foreign as they allow themselves to be... If they cut themselves off, isolate themselves, then yes, they will be seen not really as a community of "foreigners" but a community of Asians... but that is all... Speaking for myself, I see them as a community, in the midst of other communities, in one big community.

Asian Americans seen negatively: Results of landmark survey called startling, disheartening

One in four Americans has "strong negative attitudes" toward Chinese Americans, would feel uncomfortable voting for an Asian American for president of the United States, and would disapprove of a family member marrying someone of Asian descent, according to a landmark national survey.

Pushing for Yellow Entertainment

In many U.S. cities like Los Angeles or San Francisco, the face of Asian America is ubiquitous. But when it comes to television and film representation, the Asian American face seems perpetually foreign. It is either typecast in stereotypical roles or just not seen at all.

[MeAndroo]

As an 3rd generation American born person of Chinese and Japanese descent who grew up in southern California (diverse) and now works in downtown Los Angeles (diverse) but lives in Chinatown (not so diverse), I think I have a bit of a different perspective on this. My first thoughts are that the articles are from 2001, but considering how long Chinese people have been in this country, that really doesn't seem to matter.

I see both sides of Asian-Americans. Like yukio_michael mentioned, they tend to self-segregate in many respects. This isn't exclusive to Asians by any means, but that doesn't make it any less true. These "pockets," in respect to school, geography, whatever offer both a sort of sanctuary for those who feel more comfortable with people of similar background and a sort of convenient sampling of that race, if they build businesses a la Chinatown, for those who are less familiar. I can see how this provides an authentic yet stereotypically skewed view of the people and their habits, lifestyle, and demeanor. There are also the Americanized children who simultaneously embody the best and worst of both cultures.

[pipokun]

Originally Posted by yukio_michael

...
I don't have any big problem with that--- As I've spoken in other threads this is natural... And, this country, the United States, is particularly open to that sort of cultural bonding. Not so in Japan, where they wipe Korean town names off the map and replace them with Japanese names. You exist in Japan as Japanese, foreign, or not at all, regardless of your race
...

But most American people live happily without going to China town or little India.
Not here, but I sometimes see people who say it is their great adventure to go to an Asian supermarket nearby.

It is interesting for you.

Mr Kumoda is a business person in Morinaga Nutritional Foods, and he started to sell tofu in the US market back from 1985.
They call me "Mr Tofu"
http://www.kumoda.net/bunsyun.html
あるフードショーで、あまりに疲れていて路上に豆腐を数ケース置き忘れたことがあったが、翌日行ったらそのまま持 ち逃げされることもなく置き忘れたままに残っていて、 悔しい思いをしたことがあった。また1992年のロサンゼルス暴動では韓国系グローサリーストアが襲われた。そのとき、トイレットペーパーやコカ・コーラまで略奪されたというのに豆腐だけがそのまま残って いたこともあった。
At a food show in the US, he was so tired that he had left tofu on the street. I felt disapponted to know nobody stole tofu at all.
...
His conclusion goes that it is hard to say tofu acquires American citizenship, even though his plant manufactures 100,000 tofu packs/day now. But he think 'green card' should be granted now.

Again, I will fully apologise if hate crimes would be rampant in Japan. But so far, even North Korean supporter group loudly demands more subsidiaries for their kids' education to praise their great leader here in Japan.

[junjunforever]

I think the cultural differences make it really hard for the asians to integrate into the western society. They values are too different. For instance, let's say a generic asian friend makes a generic white friends. They talk about getting married. Asian guy will talk about how the parents approve of the marriage and how the family will think about the wedding. The white guy talks about how they love each other and thats all that really matters. Asian guy will talk about what kind of food they are going to feed. White guy will talk about where to have the wedding. The valuations are just different, and asians just end up sticking around with each other.

It is also worth noting thats not just asians in America. White people in Japan tend to stick around with each other too, and everywhere else in the world. If anything, most Asian at least try to learn English by actively going to school, while most Americans will learn by buying couple books to learn basic phrases and stop there.

[kireikoori]

Originally Posted by junjunforever

Asian guy will talk about how the parents approve of the marriage and how the family will think about the wedding. The white guy talks about how they love each other and thats all that really matters.

Whites used to be the same way. It's only recently that we've felt that way. People getting married for the love used to referred to as love sickness in the "west". lol, it feels so weird saying the west when I live east of Japan. lol, I love Europe..especially Germanic, Slavic and Celtic culture...but I don't really have a clue what it's like to be a European.
_
From what I'm aware Japanese people are like us, they get married for the love.
*ehem*
_
I really don't like American media. And this topic reminds why. If American media and culture weren't bad enough there's this whole Asian American whinery about not getting certain roles in movies..it really makes me sure I never want to look back upon American pop-culture. Not that I don't remember roles or Asians being kind of stereotypical back when I was watching. But as much as Asians deserve regular roles man I'm tired of hearing about it. I would have never heard of that stupid Joy Luck Club movie if it weren't for all this.
_
Some of the complaints see stereotyping where it doesn't exist and is really annoyingly paranoid.
_
Instead of finding every single obscure flick to criticize like Joy Luck Club or whatever why not focus on better things...like foreign films in America. America has a freaking monopoly on entertainment worldwide and I want it to go away.
_
You know stereotyping doesn't just exist in the US. According to wikipedia...
Wikipedia:Carolyn_Kawasaki

Her claim to fame on Japanese television comes from her playing off the stereotypical American woman from the Japanese point of view in which they are thought of as loud, domineering, and materialistic. She has appeared in television shows such as Waratte Iitomo, among others.

[heianbutterfly]

Generally, I think, it's hard for any migrant-background people or in many cases just non-white regardless of how many generations having lived in the country to fit into Western countries unless they completely and totally lose their accents, their culture or at least not actively act "Chinese", "Indian" etc around Westerners. I don't think you can compare foreigners in Japan unless you are talking about say a person with white American parents but who grew up in Japan, speaks fluent, unaccented Japanese better than many of the local Japanese people themselves, whose opinions and outlook are sometimes quite different from the average Japanese attitude due to their different influences at home but who can express and explain these opinions in the native Japanese language to anyone who wants to listen. In comparison the majority of Western foreigners living in Japan are little more than long-term tourists, many can barely even speak Japanese and are not even trying to fit in

[MadamePapillon]

Generally, I think, it's hard for any migrant-background people or in many cases just non-white regardless of how many generations having lived in the country to fit into Western countries unless they completely and totally lose their accents, their culture or at least not actively act "Chinese", "Indian" etc around Westerners.

I don't think that is true. I've known and been friends with 'non-white people' both westernized and others clearly from 'out of town'. I have to say that the only real barrier I've personally witnesses from non-westerners is themselves. Many people here are ready to embrace our differences and don't put any pressure on anyone to act 'less ethnic' around them.
Unfortunately, many non-westerners (especially Asians, this is not a stereotype) choose not to try and fully interact with us westerners (even in our own country), preferring to keep to their own ethnic group, speak only their own language, and only really dealing with us on a superficial level. The problem isn't with us wanting them to be less 'foreign', in my experience, the problems come with them not wanting to become 'like us', in other word: western.
They want to live in a western country...but they don't want to have anything to do with the west.
Like they say: Only in America

[Pachipro]

Originally Posted by MadamePapillon

They want to live in a western country...but they don't want to have anything to do with the west.

Very true Madame P. Many a foreigner desires to live in a western country and enjoy the fruits and freedoms of that country but have no desire to fit in or become a member of that country. So they flock to the "ethnic" neighborhoods, like "Chinatown", "Little Tokyo", "Little Italy", "Little Saigon", "Germantown", "Little Mecca", etc., etc. where they speak and live among themselves, often marrying among themselves, living as they would in their own country and try to have as little to do with the country they are living in or with the local population as possible.

For those that do interact or work among the natives and can speak the language fluently enough to get decent employment, they soon flock back to their community after work where they feel comfortable and "at home" and can interact with their own kind, eat their own kind of food, speak their own language etc. just as if they were living in the country of their birth.

They gladly proclaim their ethnicity with flags on their cars and celebrate all the holidays of their hometown as well as some of their own laws.

The same can be said for the many foreigners who go to Japan or some other foreign country to work. They soon find comfort among their own countrymen and women where they do not have to learn the local language or customs.

Whether this is good or bad, I cannot say for sure. But I do believe that if you move to a foreign country to live permanently, or for a few years by choice, you should truly try and fit in as best you can and that means living as the locals do and speaking the language of your adopted country. And lord knows how difficult that is with all the prejudices, stereo-types and discrimination against those that are perceived to be "outsiders".

When I lived in Japan it was because I wanted to and it was my choice. I chose to live among the locals away from the major cities, learned their language and tried to fit in as best as I could. I tried to stay away from "my own kind" as best as I could (unless they felt and thought as I did) as it would detract me from learning the language and customs and if I wanted to be among my own kind, I would've never left my homeland. For the most part it worked out excellently.

Don't misunderstand me here, I did enjoy hanging out with "my own kind" now and then and speaking my own language on occassion, but it was not my passion and goal. My goal was to fit in as best I could and live as a local would.

For others who tried to live among their own kind (whether American, Canadian, European, etc) it did not work out as well as, after more than 10 or more years of living in the country, they barely could speak the language or knew the customs, but they sure had a lot to complain about with other like-minded foreigners whom they hung out with or lived among almost 100% of the time.

So, if one desires to live in a foreign country by choice, they should forego their own country's customs and culture and adopt the ones of the country they chose to live in, because, after all, why did you choose to live in that country? To take advantage of it? In other words, was it to have your cake and eat it too? If that is the case, it will only draw animosity from the locals IMO and further perpetuate stereo-types.

[tokapi]

Shall we have a few " live " examples of N America born Japanese & Chinese perpetuated the image of " perpetually foreigners ".

Hikaru Utada 宇多田ヒカル http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utada_Hikaru
Lee-Hom Wang 王力宏 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Hom_Wang
Edison Chen 陳冠希 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison_Chen

[tokapi]

Ahem .. one question,do Whites really want to interact or socialize with Asians & other non-Caucasian folks ( seriously )

read below wiki link for realistic views ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

In Florida and Texas, as in California, the immigrant influx is creating a Democratic future. Because most of the White Americans leaving California have tended to be politically conservative and the Democratic Party has historically been considered to be in a far stronger position among Latin American and Asian immigrants, the large-scale immigration and white flight have helped to transform California into a stronghold of the Democratic Party.

White flight in Northern California

Another form of white flight is also taking place in many parts of Northern California, such as the western suburbs of San Jose, California. White flight, though taking place at a slower pace, is also affecting high-income upper-class neighborhoods that are becoming increasingly Asian American.In this case, however, the white flight does not result in socio-economic problems for the affected communities. The influx of non-whites whose socio-economic status is at least as high, if not higher, than that of previous white residents compensates for the loss in white population. Furthermore this trend tends to affect upscale enclaves such as Cupertino, Saratoga or, in Southern California San Marino. These cities are expected to have income grow significantly and become more upper-class than they are today.

[hsakakibara1]

Originally Posted by yukio_michael

I get a 404 on that link (posted before the second link was posted), maybe I'm being dumb here... I'm curious though how you think Asian foreigners are perceived... If they are perceived any certain way in the United States, it's by their own insular activities.

A good deal of Korean, Chinese, & Viet Namese residents, in the places that I have visited have gone out of their way to remain insular, rather than to dilute their culture and become "Americanized" if you will.

I don't have any big problem with that--- As I've spoken in other threads this is natural... And, this country, the United States, is particularly open to that sort of cultural bonding. Not so in Japan, where they wipe Korean town names off the map and replace them with Japanese names. You exist in Japan as Japanese, foreign, or not at all, regardless of your race.

I'll relate my visit to New York again here... In the Lower East Side, no one thinks of China Town as a "group of foreigners", Forget it Jake, it's China Town... New York is especially accepting to foreigners... You can be living there for a few months, and essentially, you're a "New Yorker" not some visiting foreigner, which can't be said of other countries (especially Japan).

Then there are Asians who come to the United States, not just for the resources provided, but to live a different life than they did in their own countries, speaking fluent English, starting businesses, adopting western ways... Are they thought any more so as foreign? It's their ability to break away from the natural instinct to bond to their own, and establish a personal identity--- though of course, they too still bond with members of their own cultural origins.

Asians are as foreign as they allow themselves to be... If they cut themselves off, isolate themselves, then yes, they will be seen not really as a community of "foreigners" but a community of Asians... but that is all... Speaking for myself, I see them as a community, in the midst of other communities, in one big community.

I agree that many Asians cut themselves off from the rest of society. Then again, not all of society wants us. Things are better in California and the western US states as they are more used to asians. In New York City where I live, however, things are different. Yes, we can make friends with, lets say, white people, but it is so much harder to do so. Most tend to gravitate towards their own ethnic groups. This is a fact in many states, not just in NY, so putting the blame entirely on Asians is not fair.

Originally Posted by Pachipro

Very true Madame P. Many a foreigner desires to live in a western country and enjoy the fruits and freedoms of that country but have no desire to fit in or become a member of that country. So they flock to the "ethnic" neighborhoods, like "Chinatown", "Little Tokyo", "Little Italy", "Little Saigon", "Germantown", "Little Mecca", etc., etc. where they speak and live among themselves, often marrying among themselves, living as they would in their own country and try to have as little to do with the country they are living in or with the local population as possible.

For those that do interact or work among the natives and can speak the language fluently enough to get decent employment, they soon flock back to their community after work where they feel comfortable and "at home" and can interact with their own kind, eat their own kind of food, speak their own language etc. just as if they were living in the country of their birth.

They gladly proclaim their ethnicity with flags on their cars and celebrate all the holidays of their hometown as well as some of their own laws.

The same can be said for the many foreigners who go to Japan or some other foreign country to work. They soon find comfort among their own countrymen and women where they do not have to learn the local language or customs.

Whether this is good or bad, I cannot say for sure. But I do believe that if you move to a foreign country to live permanently, or for a few years by choice, you should truly try and fit in as best you can and that means living as the locals do and speaking the language of your adopted country. And lord knows how difficult that is with all the prejudices, stereo-types and discrimination against those that are perceived to be "outsiders".

When I lived in Japan it was because I wanted to and it was my choice. I chose to live among the locals away from the major cities, learned their language and tried to fit in as best as I could. I tried to stay away from "my own kind" as best as I could (unless they felt and thought as I did) as it would detract me from learning the language and customs and if I wanted to be among my own kind, I would've never left my homeland. For the most part it worked out excellently.

Don't misunderstand me here, I did enjoy hanging out with "my own kind" now and then and speaking my own language on occassion, but it was not my passion and goal. My goal was to fit in as best I could and live as a local would.

For others who tried to live among their own kind (whether American, Canadian, European, etc) it did not work out as well as, after more than 10 or more years of living in the country, they barely could speak the language or knew the customs, but they sure had a lot to complain about with other like-minded foreigners whom they hung out with or lived among almost 100% of the time.

So, if one desires to live in a foreign country by choice, they should forego their own country's customs and culture and adopt the ones of the country they chose to live in, because, after all, why did you choose to live in that country? To take advantage of it? In other words, was it to have your cake and eat it too? If that is the case, it will only draw animosity from the locals IMO and further perpetuate stereo-types.

I agree but lets face it, that is not the way it usually is. Most white people stick with shites in Asia and Asians with Asians in western nations.

It is also a reason of why you move to another place. Most come to the US for percieved jobs and opportunity. Many to Japan due to interst in the culture.

[Matthew Ota]

Acceptance of Asian Americans as Americans is predominately in areas where there is a high population of Asian Americans, such as Hawaii and California. In areas where there are few Asians, they are invariably viewed as foreigners. I have lived in both types of places.

[hideway]

Wait.. How come a new member can't post an URL and a guest can?

[gaijinalways]

My goal was to fit in as best I could and live as a local would.

That's commendable if you're allowed to do that. Then again, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" may lead you to treating some people as slaves and viewing people fighting to the death as entertainment.

When I lived in Japan it was because I wanted to and it was my choice. I chose to live among the locals away from the major cities, learned their language and tried to fit in as best as I could. I tried to stay away from "my own kind" as best as I could (unless they felt and thought as I did) as it would detract me from learning the language and customs and if I wanted to be among my own kind, I would've never left my homeland.

I always thought my own kind was humankind, but I could be wrong.

As to something detracting from you learning the language, yes, this is a good reason to not live in a major city here in Japan. But I'm not sure my main goal is to learn the language whenever I move to a foreign country, so I guess I'm different than you. That and lazier, as I find learning languages difficult. I do try from time to time, but I fear it's a skill I don't possess, learning languages easily. It is something you have to make a concerted effort at, that's for sure, and it's a huge investment of time as well (in my experience anyway). Of course, it can often be time well spent. I should probably spend more time learning French, as I enjoy visiting there every year. My french is rusty, but it comes in handy once in a while.