Japan's vs America's, etc. Wartime Atrocities

[Bucko]

caster51、日本の犯罪を正当化しようとしているのをやめろ。もちろんアメリカの軍人は犯罪をやった が、日本の犯罪に比べると何でもない。アメリカの軍人は赤ちゃんを空中に投げて銃剣で捕りましたか？妊娠し ている女の腹を割きましたか？そういうことは日本の軍人がやった。もっと日本の軍人の犯罪を知りたかったら 、僕のおじいさんに聞いてください。彼はすごくひどいことを見ました。

そのビデオである男の人は占領の間２千５百の殺人事件があったと言っています。嘘だろうけど、日本の軍はア ジアで一時間同じ量の殺人をやっただろう！だから、正義のためアメリカ軍の犯罪と日本軍の犯罪を比べないで くれ。

[Dutch Baka]

Originally Posted by Bucko

caster51、日本の犯罪を正当化しようとしているのをや めろ。もちろんアメリカの軍人は犯罪をやったが、日本 の犯罪に比べると何でもない。アメリカの軍人は赤ちゃ んを空中に投げて銃剣で捕りましたか？妊娠している女 の腹を割きましたか？そういうことは日本の軍人がやっ た。もっと日本の軍人の犯罪を知りたかったら、僕のお じいさんに聞いてください。彼はすごくひどいことを見 ました。

そのビデオである男の人は占領の間２千５百の殺人事件 があったと言っています。嘘だろうけど、日本の軍はア ジアで一時間同じ量の殺人をやっただろう！だから、正 義のためアメリカ軍の犯罪と日本軍の犯罪を比べないで くれ。

Any translation on this? If you are posting outside of the Japanese language area please post in English or put a translation/summary with it. Thank you in advance.

[Bucko]

Ah sorry, here's the translation:

caster51, stop trying to justify Japan's crimes. Of course American soldiers committed crimes, but they were nothing compared to Japan's crimes. Did American soldiers throw babies into the air to catch them on their bayonets? Did American soldiers cut open the bellies of pregnant women? These are the things that the Japanese army did. If you want to know more about Japan's crimes just ask my Grandfather. He saw some absolutely terrible things.

On that video, one man said that during the occupation, there were 2500 cases of murder. Although that's probably a lie, the Japanese army in Asia probably committed the same amount in one hour! So in the name of justice, stop comparing the crimes of the Japanese and American armies.

[pipokun]

If I post something like Bucko's post, totally irrelevant topic, it will be deleted.

Bucko, please ask him if he protested the military brothel run by the PRC and why he left the country.

[caster51]

アメリカの軍人は赤ちゃんを空中に投げて銃剣で捕りましたか？妊娠し ている女の腹を割きましたか？そういうことは日本の軍人がやった。もっと日本の軍人の犯罪を知 りたかったら 、僕のおじいさんに聞いてください。彼はすごくひどいことを見ました。

about this story you should read this book.
the fact is understood.
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%81%82%E3...82%B9-%E3%83%8

it is so famous, even Japanese solidiers were suprised at them

could he distinguish soldiers.
there are Korean soldiers and Japanese soldiers...

そのビデオである男の人は占領の間２千５百の殺人事件があったと言っています。嘘だろうけど、 日本の軍はア ジアで一時間同じ量の殺人をやっただろう！だから、正義のためアメリカ軍の犯罪と日本軍の犯罪 を比べないで くれ

。

your grandfather said like that? for Justice?
what a Convenient word

[Mikawa Ossan]

I have split the thread. Please stay on topic.

And Bucko, please do not be so rude in your use of Japanese.

[junjunforever]

Originally Posted by caster51

about this story you should read this book.
the fact is understood.
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%81%82%E3...82%B9-%E3%83%8
it is so famous, even Japanese solidiers were suprised at them
could he distinguish soldiers.
there are Korean soldiers and Japanese soldiers...
。
your grandfather said like that? for Justice?
what a Convenient word

....so now its korea soldiers who did the wrong doings, now that you cant deny that the japanese army has carried out the atrocities.

How about the Uni 731? Even the most patriotic japanese cannot disagree on this issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

A special project code-named 'Maruta' used human beings for experiments. Test subjects were gathered from the surrounding population and were sometimes referred to euphemistically as "logs" (maruta, 丸太).[6] This term originated as a "joke" on the part of the staff due to the fact that the official cover story for the facility given to the local authorities was that it was a lumber mill. The test subjects included infants, the elderly, and pregnant women. Many experiments and dissections were performed on the living without the use of anesthetics because it was believed that it might affect the results, or that it was unnecessary because the subjects were tied down.[6]






Whether true or not, you may escape several instances of war crime by just dumping the guilt on others. But you cannot escape the overwhelming atrocities the japanese army have committed.

[frostyg02uk]

I cant believe that a thread was made for one single person. I have to agree with Pipokun this is a totally irrelevant topic and its not even really a topic its more of a telling off to one member. Couldnt this of been better spent through PMs? It doesnt even do what it says on the tin lol.

[hanbei]

I am angry at the arrogance of the US House of Representatives for blaming Japan on a historic issue irrelevant to US directly.
Americans should acknowledge their miserable history and the present atrocity in Iraq. American has no eligibility to accuse Japan for comfort women problem in the WW2, which was fabricated by false testimonies.

We Japanese blame America for slaughtering good citizens in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with atomic bombs. American should recognize you as the most atrocious rascal in the history. Your criminal deeds were not only the atomic bombings, but also enslavement of African people, blood shedding in Vietnam and Iraq, the discrimination of colored races at the present day in your own country and boosting the cycle of bloodshed with arms export in the whole world.
Americans are the pack of hyena, which had tore up the resources of Native American.

US government has justified them by saying that the atomic bombs were used for sparing the lives of millions of people.
Needless to say, their paradoxical excuse was the absolute bullshit added after the ending of the war.
The truth was that the atomic bombings had been conducted mainly for the experimental purpose to assess the destructive capability of the atomic bombs, and the experiment had been conducted on the ground of the racial prejudice.

The atomic bombings can’t compare with other offenses.
They are special, the crimes against the whole humankind, and a Christian may say “the sin against God,” and still US government justifies them.

I have never heard the US apology for the atomic bombings.
They have no right to press for Japanese apology on the comfort women issue until they apologize to Japan for the atomic bombings.
You should not blame others by shelving your own crimes.
It should be called “the US arrogances.”

I predict Japan-US relationships will crumble at dizzying speed because of US arrogances.

[Half-n-Half]

Originally Posted by hanbei

American should recognize you as the most atrocious rascal in the history. Your criminal deeds were not only the atomic bombings, but also enslavement of African people, blood shedding in Vietnam and Iraq, the discrimination of colored races at the present day in your own country and boosting the cycle of bloodshed with arms export in the whole world.
Americans are the pack of hyena, which had tore up the resources of Native American....You should not blame others by shelving your own crimes.

You should choose your words more carefully. I am 17 years old. They were not MY criminal deeds, MY actions that tore up the resources of the Native Americans, MY actions that enslaved African people, MY actions that invaded Vietnam or Iraq, MY actions that dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, MY actions that export arms to the whole world, nor am I a racist. I have no problem with you having problems with America, but blanket statements like this just simply aren't true and shouldn't be tolerated. Most of the people on this board were not alive during the atomic bombings, or were at least wee little children (with the exception of Uncle Frank ).

Originally Posted by hanbei

Americans should acknowledge their miserable history and the present atrocity in Iraq.

Another blanket statement. Many Americans agree on these points. Many protest the war in Iraq every day. They even have a political party for them: Democrats.
America has definitely had its rocky past and has been very arrogant and sometimes slow to apologize. However, Japan hasn't had a spot-clean history, either. If you say America has no right to ask Japan to apologize for comfort women, than what right does Japan have to ask America to apologize for the dropping of the atomic bombs? In the end, someone is going to have to swallow their pride and apologize. Sorry to say, it will most likely be Japan, because the U.S government (at least to my knowledge, which is limited ) thinks the dropping of the atomic bombs was the right thing to do, and therefore, there is nothing to apologize for.
I understand you are angry, but please don't let it turn to hate.

[hanbei]

US government and American people refuse adamantly to apologize for atomic bombings to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

They are the mankind’s common enemy to be punished.

[frostyg02uk]

Your saying alot of MY's halfy but to be fair the same can be said about the Japanese. They (as in our members) did not fight in the war nore use comfort women. Yet if I was Japanese I'd be a bit pissed off that everytime I come onto this forum I see a new thread at how terrible Japan was 62years ago especially when you see a thread on how america demands (or wants whatever way you view it) Japan to say sorry even though they did drop 2 A bombs and their record in war since then is not a good one. I think there are about 3-5 comfort threads going about with posts in the hundreds yet when i made a thread for the 62nd year of Hiroshima I got 5 posts...and 2 were mine so I didnt see anyone crawling out of the wood to say anything then..maybe because i didnt have a band wagon...who knows.

After the posts an american wanting Japan to say sorry another american made a thread saying basically "who are america to tell anyone to say sorry with our record" but more or less anyone that contributed to that thread mocked the thread maker. While I think Japan should (although they have...numerously) say sorry for their war crimes if I was the person who had to say sorry I'd be thinking...who are America with their record to demand anything?

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

You are so right frosty, it mustn't turn into hate.
We could all learn from our discussion on this really good Forum. Yes me too!!

[frostyg02uk]

Completely off topic but to anyone who thinks they hate somwhere or someone you can learn alot from Elizabeth Van Kampen. Read many of her old posts..I'm sure in time your change your opinions.

[Ultraman]

I have removed my original post because I couldn't speak it to a living victim of the atomic bombs.

Sincerely RK

[frostyg02uk]

Or maybe the pot calling the whole kitchen black? ^-^

[hanbei]

Everybody knows nuclear warfare can ruin the civilization.
US had used the nuclear weapons against Japan for the first time in the human history.
US president Harry S Truman had made the devil’s decision.
US government and American people are the devil’s reincarnation continuing their massacres in Vietnam, Iraq and everywhere in the world.
The atrociousness of American people overwhelms Hitler.

We should not forget the fact that US are the most malicious nation in the world for polluting the Earth.

[Ultraman]

I have removed my original post because I couldn't speak it to a living victim of the atomic bombs.

Sincerely RK

[hanbei]

To Ultraman:
Your know-it-all attitude is insufferable.
Japan is not your place.
Go home!

[Mars Man]

Wait,wait,wait just a second, please...let's not get into a person thing here. Let's not start throwing mud, please gentlemen.

You have raised some points that we should perhaps look into more carefully, hanbei san. Let's do that. They may be more valid in some respects--I repeat in some respects--than some of us may like to consider, so, let's stay calm and look into them. (an others) MM

[Half-n-Half]

Originally Posted by frostyg02uk

Your saying alot of MY's halfy but to be fair the same can be said about the Japanese. They (as in our members) did not fight in the war nore use comfort women. Yet if I was Japanese I'd be a bit pissed off that everytime I come onto this forum I see a new thread at how terrible Japan was 62years ago especially when you see a thread on how america demands (or wants whatever way you view it) Japan to say sorry even though they did drop 2 A bombs and their record in war since then is not a good one. I think there are about 3-5 comfort threads going about with posts in the hundreds yet when i made a thread for the 62nd year of Hiroshima I got 5 posts...and 2 were mine so I didnt see anyone crawling out of the wood to say anything then..maybe because i didnt have a band wagon...who knows.
After the posts an american wanting Japan to say sorry another american made a thread saying basically "who are america to tell anyone to say sorry with our record" but more or less anyone that contributed to that thread mocked the thread maker. While I think Japan should (although they have...numerously) say sorry for their war crimes if I was the person who had to say sorry I'd be thinking...who are America with their record to demand anything?

My intention in my OP was not to convince anyone to sway one way or another, it was to point out the absurdity of Hanbei's post and to play devil's advocate. I found, and still find, his posts extremely racist and full of hate. I realize that America definitely has had a dirty past and has no more right to ask Japan to apologize than Japan has the right to ask America to apologize. Sorry if what I said was misinterpreted.

[Ultraman]

Originally Posted by hanbei

To Ultraman:
Your know-it-all attitude is insufferable.

I know.

Japan is not your place.
Go home!

Why don't you leave home?
OK enough kidding. Why are you upset hanbei?
RK

[GodEmperorLeto]

1) The use of the atomic bomb against Hiroshima and Nagasaki produced fewer casualties combined (including from radiation illness and cancer rates) than the firebombing of Tokyo alone.
2) After the Japanese military convinced the population of Okinawa that the Americans would behave just as the Japanese had in Nanking (i.e. raping, plundering, murdering, etc.), the U.S. government had to re-evaluate casualty projections for civilians for Operation Downfall, which grew to number in the millions.
3) The prospect of continuing a war for at least another year, and having to suffer rapidly increasing numbers of casualties, both of American and Japanese soldiers, and Japanese civilians (both caught in the crossfire and actively suicide-charging allied forces) was, without the use of the atomic bomb, an horrific necessity.

People are very quick to judge the American decision to use the atomic bomb. And they betray their own foolishness and ignorance to believe that all Americans feel that it was the right thing to do. They are also foolish to believe that all Americans supported both the Vietnam and the current Iraq war. Such people betray an incredible ignorance both of American politics and the American people as a whole. Especially since both the Vietnam and Iraq wars succeeded in dividing the country's populace and creating a lot of internal tensions and discontent at home.

The use of the atomic bomb is heavily criticized in the United States by American historians, political theorists, and journalists. Americans are more likely to know about the Mai Lai massacre during the Vietnam War than the Rape of Nanking by the Japanese. (Ironically, the Mai Lai massacre was interrupted by an American helicopter officer who refused to permit the slaughter to continue unchecked, while no Japanese stepped up to stop what was going on in Nanking.)

My point is this: Criticizing the American use of the atomic bomb is fine. But to condemn the United States for its use is foolish and ignorant. The fact is that the use of the bomb saved lives. The casualties, both Japanese and American, from Operation Downfall would have been worse than anything that had yet been seen in the war. In addition, the Soviet Union let it's non-aggression pact with the Japanese expire, and by dropping the bomb the United States prevented Japan from being parceled out like Germany was. Soviet behavior in East Germany as they drove on Berlin, and later with the purging of the Japanese from Sakhalin, was abominable, and easily comparable to the Japanese in China.

To criticize the use of atomic weapons because they are, by their very nature, atomic weapons is acceptable. But also realize that Truman never again dropped another atomic bomb, not even when it would have been to his advantage during the Korean War, at the behest of MacArthur. The United States has never again deployed atomic weapons in an attack against an opposing faction, state, or government. Period. American attitudes towards our own nuclear arsenal are fearful and mixed with loathing.

In addition, the United States has some of the strictest laws regarding emissions from automobiles, factories, and other industrial facilities in the world: one of the reasons companies continue shutting down factories and moving to countries where the fines are not as high and the regulations are not as strict. And every year, emissions requirements for automobiles become increasingly strict, requiring an average of $200 a year in maintainance on automobiles to bring them up to the new specifications. In fact, the United States, once responsible for over half of the world's pollution during the 1980s, is now only responsible for about 20%, and increase in pollution has slowed, while Europe, Russia, and Russia are producing more greenhouse gases and industrial waste at exponentially increasing rates each year. Finally, the United States' forests have tripled in size in the past 100 years, while other nations, such as Brazil, are destroying their forests at increasing rates every year. To accuse the United States of not only being a warmongering nation of tyrants is ignorant, but to also accuse it of being singlehandedly responsible for destroying the environment is foolish beyond description.

It is very easy to play the blame game and point fingers at other countries for their iniquities, especially if you don't live there, have never visited there, and do not know the facts. Just because you saw it on television doesn't make it true. Ironically, that is something Americans teach their children as a rule by the time they are 10 years old.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Sorry about the double-post, but I also thought I'd quote something that I had written a few months ago in another thread.

Originally Posted by GodEmperorLeto

The vast bulk of the Japanese of today didn't fight World War II. They didn't commit any atrocities or war crimes. They are not guilty at all.

And I still agree with this. I don't feel that there is any constructive point into comparing war crimes. That is like trying to defend Roman behavior during the Jewish War in the AD 60s/70s. It is a pointless exercise. The point of studying history is to understand what went wrong and to try to learn from it, and prevent it from recurring.

The reason that history repeats itself isn't because history has some cyclical nature, but rather that, although times, technology, and knowledge may change, people fundamentally don't, and so they repeat the same mistakes that their predecessors have.

If you compare Japanese and American behavior during the Pacific War in an effort to understand what happened, why it happened, and how people should behave in order to prevent it from repeating itself, then you are doing the right thing. But if you are comparing behavior to vindicate yourself or to lay blame on someone else for something that happened half-a-century ago, then you are basically engaging in a fruitless exercise that will accomplish little more than anger people and spread feelings of enmity and victimization.

[hplaserjet6p]

Originally Posted by GodEmperorLeto

My point is this: Criticizing the American use of the atomic bomb is fine. But to condemn the United States for its use is foolish and ignorant. The fact is that the use of the bomb saved lives.

WOW... its still 9th August for god sake.

statement like that, i find it as offending as "use of brothels prevented local women getting raped".....