The Soulless Asian; Asian versus Western

[TuskCracker]

The Soulless Asian; Asian versus Western

I lived Asia two years (1980-1981)

I find the following about Asia (Japan, China, and Korea)

- -> Hard working

- -> Money is everything

- -> Money is first, pollution of my neighborhood, who cares, if not in my yard

- -> Not as "artsy" and deep thinkers as Westerners (rarely procude a "Kurt Vonnegut" or "Hunter S. Thompson")

- -> Believe order is more important than pseudo-controlled chaos (good for dealing with crime, bad for storming ideas in a meeting)

- -> Women exist mostly for pleasure (I don't know how Asian Men raise daughters)

- -> Their economy are the worlds worst polluters
(If Asians ran the world, the last tree and last fish in the ocean would be gone by 2040).

- -> Many Chinese come of cold, like their lives are burnt-out robots, going through the motions (Americans love to say good morning, and talk a bit. and tell stories, or a joke or two).


p.s: Their are exceptions to every rule.

[nice gaijin]

If that's your experience, I feel sorry for you.

p.s: Their are exceptions to every rule.

There sure are, but I wouldn't call what you've listed here as rules.

[Shibuyaexpat]

I'm really sorry that from your 2 years in those countries, you were only able to take away those sentiments. Additionally, China, Korea and Japan have changed since 1980/81. All of those things you outline can be said of the U.S. if not more.

As for "artsy" and deep thinkers, a little study into Asian art and literature will help you to see that there's plenty there to keep an interested mind engaged.

As for "Believe order is more important than pseudo-controlled chaos," you'll have to elaborate on that because wouldn't any working society value order more than chaos--pseudo-controlled or not? I still don't understand what you mean by "pseudo-controlled." Wouldn't it simply be chaos if it's not really controlled?

[Glenski]

Women exist mostly for pleasure

How many soaplands did you say you visited?
How many mothers and working mothers did you interview or meet in your 2 skimpy years?

BTW, 2 years divided by 3 countries = 8 months per country average time spent. Pretty short time to judge entire countries.

[Ewok85]

Originally Posted by TuskCracker

I lived Asia two years (1980-1981)

I've been hearing fascinating stories from friends who lived/worked here from the 70's onwards, and the changes are amazing.

In particular:
"Hard working" = Long working. People will be at the office simply to be at the office. Last guy to leave is the "hardest" worker, even if he did sleep in the storage room for 10 hours of that 14hr day.

"Money is everything" - During the 80's and 90's the economy sky rocketed thanks to a false bubble economy. Money was easy to come by, and people spent like there was no tomorrow.

"Money is first, pollution of my neighborhood, who cares, if not in my yard" - Two words; Dioxin, Minamata.

"Not as "artsy" and deep thinkers as Westerners" - Hard to talk about as "art" in the East is different to the West, and both have their real disasters... Remember that there have been many Asian philosophers and deep thinkers, and Asian art is very different to Western art. Still, Japan had what I can only call a "cultural disaster" after WWII where anything "old" was considered to be dirty, substandard, and many beautiful homes, customs and practices were discarded for new, soulless, sterile objects, designs and ways. One look at Kyoto will tell you all you need to know.

"Believe order is more important than pseudo-controlled chaos (good for dealing with crime, bad for storming ideas in a meeting)" - Again, this is a recent thing. Anyone coming from Edo-era Japan would have been shocked and appalled by the people of modern Japan IMO. Crime is not what made Japan successful and adopt an extremely strict order to anything, it was huge advances in industry and in particular manufacturing, which kickstarted the economy after the war, which seeped into every facet of life.

"Women exist mostly for pleasure (I don't know how Asian Men raise daughters)" - Depends on the person, I've seen the best and worst you can come to expect from a human being while here, but thats no different than anywhere.

"Their economy are the worlds worst polluters" - You cheated, thats using the same thing twice!

[bakaKanadajin]

Your first mistake is lumping various countries into one 'Asian' grouping. Goes downhill from there.

[TuskCracker]

Lived and worked; Singapore and Hong-Kong. Hong-Kong as much as Singapore. Studied Bhasa-Malaysia to do business with Malaysian companies. Many vacation trips to; Malaysia and Thailand.

My opionon on "Asians just pollute" is just very strong. So long as the pollution is not in their yard. It was rampant wherever I went in Asia. It was a culture attitude, money first, and who cares about messing up your city.

I met a few Koreans and Japanese. Nothing changed my mind about this.

Time frame was 1980-1981

[Mycernius]

Originally Posted by Tuskcracker

I lived Asia two years (1980-1981)

What all of it, including Arabia, India, Israel? I believe they are all Asians as well.

Originally Posted by Tuskcracker

I find the following about Asia (Japan, China, and Korea)

So by living in these three countries you have decided that the list you came up with is typical of all Asians? That's a bit like living in Ireland and the UK and saying all Europeans drink tea. Hardly a representative sample of Asia, 3 countries.

Originally Posted by Tuskcracker

Not as "artsy" and deep thinkers as Westerners (rarely procude a "Kurt Vonnegut" or "Hunter S. Thompson")

By whose standards, yours? Three major world religions came from "thinkers", Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism. Sun Tzu produced a book, The Art of War, that is still studied by modern day military. Ever thought that the overwelming commercialism from the west keeps Asian authors and artists in their own countries and not being able to expand as easily into the west as the west does so into Asian.

Originally Posted by Tuskcracker

Women exist mostly for pleasure

Hmm, an attitude I have often seen and heard in the west, especially by those who want to keep women in their place. Religious groups mainly.

Originally Posted by Tuskcracker

Their economy are the worlds worst polluters
(If Asians ran the world, the last tree and last fish in the ocean would be gone by 2040).

Number one is the USA, followed by China, Japan, Germany and India.
The US has been the number one polluter in the world for years, including the time you where in Asia (Which I gather you mean the Far East, Asia is a rather large continent)
It will soon be passed by China, but it is still up there.
Source
You will also notice that only three of them are Asian countries. I suggest you get your facts right before posting.

[Shibuyaexpat]

Originally Posted by TuskCracker

Lived and worked; Singapore and Hong-Kong. Hong-Kong as much as Singapore. Studied Bhasa-Malaysia to do business with Malaysian companies. Many vacation trips to; Malaysia and Thailand.
My opionon on "Asians just pollute" is just very strong. So long as the pollution is not in their yard. It was rampant wherever I went in Asia. It was a culture attitude, money first, and who cares about messing up your city.
I met a few Koreans and Japanese. Nothing changed my mind about this.
Time frame was 1980-1981

are you really expecting to carry on an intelligent conversation from this or are you simply looking to seek justification for your views? Either way, i'm finished with this thread.

[TuskCracker]

-
All I read is that Communist China is super-polluted. I had two people who visited China, said they do not want to go back. It was just too much pollution and filthy.

These articles by the "liberal" New York Times. It reinforces what I mentioned.

As China Roars, Pollution Reaches Deadly Extremes
By JOSEPH KAHN and JIM YARDLEY
Published: August 26, 2007
The speed of China’s rise as an economic power is unprecedented, as is the scale of its problems.

->http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/wo...a/26china.html

Beneath Booming Cities, China’s Future Is Drying Up
By JIM YARDLEY
Published: September 28, 2007
Groundwater levels are dropping around China, as development taps a finite water supply.

-> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/28/wo...a/28water.html


In China, a Lake’s Champion Imperils Himself
By JOSEPH KAHN
Published: October 14, 2007
When Lake Tai succumbed to floods of man-made waste this year, the man who tried to save it was in jail.

-> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/wo...a/14china.html

.

[Goldiegirl]

So when you say Asian, perhaps you should just say CHINA? Seems like that is your area of interest, right or wrong. I certainly will not defend China, they are a very polluted country. I was even reading about "cancer" towns there. Many people are dieing of cancer because of the polluted water that runs red/brown, and is poisoned from the coal mining.

[kireikoori]

WTF
http://www.japantoday.com/forum/tm.a...1&key=&#969517
This thread reminds me too much of that one Southpark episode.

Also, does Japan really pollute that much? I know a dolphin when extinct recently in China. And due to pollution. Which is pathetic.

But Japan? Maybe I'm wrong, but they seem pretty green to me.

[tokapi]

Does Japan's air look green,pathetic

[Derfel]

Although i understand what this topic is about, i just can't seem to grasp its purpose, TuskCracker, you list so many things, which do you want to discuss if i may ask? Because the definition of order, the role of women and economy don't have anything to do with each other. Although im in no position to say this, but i suggest you make an actual topic about the area that caught your attention instead of a vague listing. And yes, i have to agree with the ones that spoke before me, 8 months each is not too long, i would say, you were there as a tourists. Not that i know more than you, but judging after roughly 8 months considering it was damn years ago is wrong in my opinion.
Please continue.

[TuskCracker]

I was their 22-23 months. It was work and work. I lived and worked; Signapore and Hong-Kong. On 3 and 4 days weekends, mostly took time to go to Malaysia and Thailand, with friends from work

I studied formally Bhasa Malaysian. Many of my peers in the classes did better than me. I had dealings with Malaysian companies.

I lived and worked in an Asian culture (1980-1981). In Singapore, English was spoken most of the time in the company. In Hong-Kong much less English spoken in the companies offices.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Ewok85

"Not as "artsy" and deep thinkers as Westerners" - Hard to talk about as "art" in the East is different to the West, and both have their real disasters... Remember that there have been many Asian philosophers and deep thinkers, and Asian art is very different to Western art. Still, Japan had what I can only call a "cultural disaster" after WWII where anything "old" was considered to be dirty, substandard, and many beautiful homes, customs and practices were discarded for new, soulless, sterile objects, designs and ways. One look at Kyoto will tell you all you need to know.

Hmm i think Japan's rejection of its native styles of art back then started a lot earlier than its involvement in or after the WW2 years. I think Japan started to become obsessed with western styles of art during the early meiji period as soon as Japan opened its doors to the west, during this time the japanese started to make their first tentative steps towards imitating western styles of art.

Even before the meiji period, there were small quantities of western art secretely circulating around japan during the Edo period, i have a book on the history of shunga called "Japanese Erotic Fantasies, Sexual imagery of the Edo period" (an interesting book BTW, has many interesting points to make on how sex affected japanese society and how it affected the art that society produced etc).
In the books many pictures and writings on shunga, it shows one very unique peice of Edo shunga by a japanese artist- the picture shows a western couple making love, the shunga print is not only unique for its content but also for the japanese artists attempts at shading (a technique borrowed from the west), he seems to have a hard time coming to grips with the concept of shading but does it to the best of his abilities non the less. The annomynous shunga print is thought to have been based on the later 18th centuary drawings or imitations of Il Modo by Giulio Romano (1499-1546)- it is hard though to speculate on the amount of western material like this circulating in Japan at this point in the Edo period.

None the less though, i would say that definately by the Taisho period western arts influence on kimono at least is well in full swing, you often see many old vintage kimono from the taisho period often referred to as "taisho-roman" kimono, the influence of western art on these kimono's designs is obvious on many, for example here is one example of what i am talking about;

http://www.ichiroya.com/item/list2.php?number=87499



The artist trys to use more shading in the decoration of the kimono's design while trying to copying the more "realistic" western style of painting flowers, in a lot of taisho kimono you also see lot of things like roses appearing as motifs on kimono, with roses of course being prized back in the west, the flowers of royalty.

If you read about the interesting but sad story of the famous japanese artist Utamaro, you will find out that at the date of his death the japanese were already rejecting their "inferior" styles of native art, poor Utamaro's grave was completely neglected for decades upon decades and his achievements were never really given the real credit he deserved for a long time after his death because there was no one willing to give him any credit at that time as the japanese carried on obsessing about how "superior" and amazing western style art was, they neglected their own artists, art and really culture too for too long...
It was not until the japanese really started to realise that we loved their styles of art, that they started to give more credit to their own styles of art.

[Derfel]

Well its sad, but natural, if the situation would have been vice versa, western culture would have adopted Japanese elements, if not Japanese art wholly. Its pretty much similar to the USSR's jeans and generally west mania. But i kinda have a questions, how does all this western influence affect the modern Japanese culture? I mean, when you look at what happened with the USSR you'd expect Japan to restore its balance quickly, but since im reading the opposite, it probably is otherwise... is this the case? If it is why do you think it is?

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Derfel

Well its sad, but natural, if the situation would have been vice versa, western culture would have adopted Japanese elements, if not Japanese art wholly. Its pretty much similar to the USSR's jeans and generally west mania. But i kinda have a questions, how does all this western influence affect the modern Japanese culture? I mean, when you look at what happened with the USSR you'd expect Japan to restore its balance quickly, but since im reading the opposite, it probably is otherwise... is this the case? If it is why do you think it is?

I dunno much about the story/history on the USSR thing, but i think the main reasons why japan stayed so westernised after the war was simply because art became involved with the war spirit and politics of japan and the three of these things became so closely intertwined with each other and the culture of the japanese in general, that there was no turning back even after the war- i think the way stuff like western art effected japan, didn't just affect the fashions and trends at the time, it affected the way of thinking of the japanese people themselves.

I think if Japan had won the war, things could have turned out very different for its art and culture, since winning the war would have boosted japans ego and spirit beyond immeasureable bounds, and this japanese spirit would have no longer needed the western ideals it held to be looked up to anymore, and so a new re-inforced bold and self-assured japanese culture would have risen out of its old pre-war more insecure shell.

I think losing the war though for japan irreverseably forced japanese people to continue adopting more and more western culture though- i don't think this just came about with the literal permanent landing of westerners like american troops on japanese soil which the japanese were forced to accept, but i think the whole war itself put an imense amount of strain on the general japanese people and probably made them question many of their japanese born and bred ideals which were influencing and motivating their actions in war.

In the end they lost the war, and i think with this started the loss of many aspects of their culture began (and in many ways this still continues to this day).
Some of the old culture like the old styles of art are now gradually being accepted back into the circles of praise, and old dead artists like Utamaro are now being praised more than ever now in recent times, but this isn't the case for a lot of aspects of the old culture, which i am afraid some of which will be irreverseably replaced with western aspects of culture.

I think for Japan, losing the war made it very humble (or at least a lot more humble than it used to be, losing the war slashed at the heart of japans pride), and it is true that the numerous Americans at least wanted to mold a newer and more westernised society out of this conquered and now subdued oriental foe.

[Goldiegirl]

I think if the "Americans" wanted to make a new America, we would be living there and not the Japanese....for example, Native Americans. Personally, I think Japan was/is a very smart nation overall and would have progressed to a more western syle regardless of the outcome of the war. To me it's lame to ever think they could've won, they were just too small and had very limited resources. Japan is still very Japanese. I know that I am not in my country immediately. Even companies that are American that are in Japan are not run like their American counterparts. McD's is not the same as it is here. It's different...it's Japanese. I am not welcomed when I enter or leave...

[Derfel]

McDonald's is McDonald's wherever you are, they might serve you in a different manner, nonetheless your life will be shortened by the same amount if you eat there
Umm yes, well its probably impossible to completely root out everything Japanese, even if you make efforts, but still, its rather easy to destroy whole aspects of a culture even without doing much, just by being in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Well hopefully most of those aspects will survive, one way or another.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

I think if the "Americans" wanted to make a new America, we would be living there and not the Japanese....for example, Native Americans. Personally, I think Japan was/is a very smart nation overall and would have progressed to a more western syle regardless of the outcome of the war. To me it's lame to ever think they could've won, they were just too small and had very limited resources. Japan is still very Japanese. I know that I am not in my country immediately. Even companies that are American that are in Japan are not run like their American counterparts. McD's is not the same as it is here. It's different...it's Japanese. I am not welcomed when I enter or leave...

Hm, but when you compare Japan to how it is now or even just how it was soon after the war and what it was like before it went to war, the changes that happened in that short period of time to its culture are astounding though.
I think there was always a good chance back at the start that Japan could have won the war, but i think by the time the americans were getting ready to nuke Japan, i think Japan was bound to lose the war soon either way (i think the americans knew this, which is why i think the americans viewed the nuke bombs as more as experiments than as a desperate act to stop the war- i think the americans knew full well by then that they were going to win the war).


The Americans didn't want to make a new America in Japan, they wanted to westernise Japan as a country on the whole though, to help take advantage of its resources after the war- westernising a country is different from building a new america or whatever on it, Japan is in a very good position (literally) for many things. The American's changed a great deal about the way Japan worked, for example from just small things like introducing milk into childrens school meals, to more large cultural changes like making prostitution and cannabis illegal etc.

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

Personally, I think Japan was/is a very smart nation overall and would have progressed to a more western syle regardless of the outcome of the war.

I'm not sure about that...Its true Japan is a very smart country, but when you look at what was going on in the meiji period with just the general culture back then, it was quite crazy really- on the one hand, they were worshipping so many aspects of western culture like western style art, its miltary and many aspects of its politics etc. But on the other hand, women who wore western style clothes were often looked down upon and viewed as "loose women", good women were still expected to fullfill the japanese societies expectations, they wore kimono while the men wore western style suits, the free women were pretty much viewed as the baby making machines they had always been for a long time in japanese society. They were encouraged to express their individuality, but then on the other hand they were still living in a very supressed sexist society etc. They wore western style art on their kimono, but their homes were decorated with japanese style art like Imari ware bowls to eat out of etc.

Basically, i think Japan was obsessing with certain chosen ideals of both western culture and systems and japanese cultures and systems, but at the same time it was rejecting many aspects of both cultures. The meiji times were times of great change in many respects in Japanese society.

I think though that japans adoption of so many aspects of western style culture was because they admired us because they viewed us as being more technologically and militarily advanced than then for quite a while, but if Japan had one the war against its posible that the Japanese would have stopped looking up to our technology and stuff because at the end of the day it didn't win the war against the Japanese as a whole etc.

[Goldiegirl]

Derfel, having never been to Japan I can assure you it is NOT the same as it is in
America or your country.

A+ JackInBox!

[mika_r]

Originally Posted by kireikoori

WTF
http://www.japantoday.com/forum/tm.a...56178;�
This thread reminds me too much of that one Southpark episode.

xDDDD me too!

anyway, what makes you think that western ppl are "better" than Asian?

may I remember you WW I and II, inquisition, colonization, genocides, etc... all begun by western countries!!

oh by the way, USA is one of the countries who most contaminates in the world!

[Derfel]

Well, Iron Maiden's Paschendale is a great song, i shall quite from it:
"Cruelty has a human heart
Every man does play his part
Terror of the men we kill
The human heart is hungry still"

Now, this describes everything people do in a critical situation, be they europeans, americans, africans, asians, australians, whateverians.
Its a very human reaction, an instinct i dare say.

[TuskCracker]

I've been hearing fascinating stories from friends who lived/worked here from the 70's onwards, and the changes are amazing.

Of course I realize, things have changed. Just my impressioms from being their 1980-1981. Have never been back.

My opinion: If Asia could solve or control several issues, it will be the "center of the universe" very soon. Problems facing Asia;
-> Political Corruption, to having Old-Style Communist Dictatorships
-> China versus Taiwan
-> North-Korea (slowly getting much better)
-> Pollution
-> World War II guilt, and the political impacts