Ghost stories!

[Goldiegirl]

What are ghosts or spirits and do you believe in them? I've been thinking about this a lot lately because of experiences I had while growing up. Here's my story, tell me what you think...

Somewhere between the ages of 6-10 I lived in a "haunted" bedroom. I don't know what else to call it. At night time all of these old people would be standing around my bed talking. They weren't ghosts, like billowy white images, or shadows, but rather black and white images that looked like they were from old photographs. I couldn't see through them, they appeared solid. They all were talking to each other. Always, the one old lady at the end of the bed would try and talk to me. It had me very scared. I would just pull the blankets up over my head and pretend they weren't there. I never felt that they would harm me. During the day, I could hear whispers. I would tell my mom and she would say that there are no such things as ghosts and we are christians and don't believe in them. Well that answer didn't work. Finally she just got tired of me complaining and switched my bedroom. That ended the nightly visits, but I could still hear the old people. My mom says she never noticed anything. She worked nights so she didn't spend a lot of time in that room.

So the other day I was talking with my brother, and we got on the subjects of death and dying and what happens to your soul. I told him of my "haunting" and he got really aggitated. He lives in that house, but doesn't use that room. A few weeks ago he had his neighbor over who brought along his little daughter. She kept going to the stairway and talking. When her dad asked her who she was talking to, she said "the old lady"! They didn't think anything of it. Now of course he does. He said he doesn't use that bedroom because he didn't like the feel of it.

I am not sure what to think. What are all of your thoughts, and have any of you experienced something like a haunting or paranormal activity?

[Arlet]

Well, i Do believe in ghosts.
I don't know why, never experienced anything except one time we tried to call ghosts.
(Long time ago)
Still I think those stories are very interesting. Most of the time scary though.

[Goldiegirl]

Did you use a ouija board to call ghosts? Did anything happen? I never tried to call anything up, spirit, ghost or anything. I was always concerned that something would show up and I wouldn't know how to make it go away!

[Derfel]

Its just fun, how harmless ghost, who are constant "guests" can scare life out of people.
As for me, i do believe in ghosts, but on the other hand, im not saying that they surely exist. Its just that no one proven their existence for sure, and vice versa. Ghosts? I had such experience as well. For a short while there was a black image standing at my bed, i haven't a clue if it was a REAL ghost, or my imagination or whatever. But it scared me so much, that every single time, even though i was around 11 I ran to my mothers bedroom.

Its a possibility that children in general are capable of noticing the supernatural, but this capability slowly fades away for most of them, those who can keep their ability are the famous indigo children. Also, many people believe that humanity in early times, was a way way more spiritual race, not only in our beliefs, but regarding our senses as well. So perhaps, it might be that people's heightened senses gradually get sucked away by our technocratic, atheistic environment... although its just my theory, the latter one that is, the first two are made by professionals
I personally wouldn't try to call a ghost, i don't have the need of it, so i'd rather not mess with that kinda stuff without a strong reason.

[Mars Man]

Did somebody call my name? Oh...it was you Goldiegirl chan...hee, hee, hee...

Well I would like to come busting through the bar's swinging doors, and just stand there for a short moment as the music and talking instantly stops...so that all eyes can focus on me for a second...before I stroll up to the bar and ask for a stiff one.

Now...first I'd like to ask Goldiegirl, if I may have her permission to ask for some definitions on some of the terms presented. I'd then hope to be allowed to argue some on those definitions.

The very reason being, if that word, for example, 'ghost,' is left up to each individual to define, then no one can refute any statement by that person that they believe in, have seen, or have heard, or have touched or been touched by a 'ghost.' The same would be for the word 'spirit' or 'soul.' Also, would there be any difference between these three words, and if so, what?

My own stance, at the moment, is that whatever any 'spiritual realm' may be (if there is, in fact any such dimension) in existence, it is not any part of the 'physical realm,' but may intersect in some manner so as to allow some type of energy mirrowing/borrowing/leaking. What is physical is always physical, and what is spiritual is always spiritual and the only possible overlap may be only that mirrowing/borrowing/leaking, which is a matter of energies that are affected.

There could be the scenario where what we humans see as 'spiritual' is nothing more than some function of the physical realm, which, if that were the case, would show that there would be no such thing as 'spiritual' or 'spiritual realm;' it'd all be the 'physical realm' only.

As for occurences such as Goldiegirl has brought out, where more than one brain can percieve the same firing systems of imagery, I have very little doubt that something does in fact exist. I would not be so quick to call that 'spiritual,' and would strongly argue that such images have nothing whatsoever to do with human existence other than the fact that humans interpret, or are causued to interpret the relation as such.

I hope to hear from you, Goldiegirl, on that priviledge of discussion the definitions--it'll mean a little embedding, that's why.

[Goldiegirl]

Mars Man san, I must apologize I don't have definitions per se. Only what I think, and I have an open mind so if you can add more, please do! I am confused to say the least. Here goes for definitions.

Ghosts...hmm....I always figured they were just around, like a leftover memory, and they can't interact, they aren't intelligent.

Spirits, trickier to me. I think they are intelligent energy, kind of the life spark that hasn't moved from the physical into the spiritual. They can try and make contact. But you see that could be a soul too. I think maybe a spirit could be religious in nature, maybe like an angel or on the opposite end a demon. Souls have to be from people who were once living. Feel free to help here Mars Man san!

A friend of mine who is a Jehovah's Witness told me that was I saw were demons and satanic and that I shouldn't think of them or try to find out more. He said there are no such things as ghosts and such. I didn't feel like the old people were evil and trying to harm me, but then again I never talked back to them either. I still can't go in that room. I never went in it even when my mom was in there.

[Revenant]

I've got a couple of odd experiences. The first happened at 6:45 in the morning. My bro and I were waiting outside for the basketball coach to come and let us in. It was a cold crisp morning, and the sun was still hidden behind the mountains. Then I saw a tall, slender, muscular, transparent shadow running extremely fast. He zipped down the street towards us, turned down away from us, and went around a corner. At first I wasn't sure that I actually saw that, finally I turned to my bro and asked him if he had seen anything, and he asked if I meant a dark shadow running. I only nodded, and neither of us has spoken of that since.

The other was I was upstairs sleeping in. Everyone else in the house had gone to work, so I knew I was alone. But I heard someone shuffling about downstairs, and a very faint jingling of bells. After some time I finally got up the courage to go have a look, but there was no one there, and nothing to indicate anyone had been there.

Ghosts if they exist, from a logical point of view, since we sense them through our limited senses, must be tangible, as in scientific instruments should be able to also pick up evidence of their existence. I haven't come across any scientific data that would suggest they were real, and a lot of scientific data suggests they don't exist, or that they were natural phenomena that our minds interpreted as ghosts (our minds can put together info from limited stimuli and create it's own picture of something that doesn't actually exist, as a gross example, there was the gif of a spinning woman featured on the net news recently, some people saw it turning clockwise, others counterclockwise), or that they are purely imagined (perhaps, I am slightly schizophrenic. I know I see moving transparent shapes that float across my vision that don't exist in reality. My bro is schizophrenic).

[justin]

I believe in ghosts and had more than one run in with them. Back when I was going to school in Oregon there were days when I was the only person in my dorm. I would relax by reading or playing some video games. Out of the corner of my eye I would see someone rush past my room or duck down the hall. When I went after the person or persons I would find empty air and nothing more. Voices whispered from corners, but never a speaker to be found. For awhile I thought it was my buddies playing tricks on me until they told me they had also seen and heard them as well. I still get chills thinking abou those days.

[Kinsao]

I don't believe in 'ghosts' per se; that is, what most people mean when they say 'ghost', a physical humanlike form that appears as a shadow or a light or somehow intangible yet visible. However, I do believe that events that have happened in a place can leave an 'imprint' onto the location, so it's possible for people to sense something of what has happened in a place.

As for visible ghosts, I think people are of course seeing something, but as Mars Man pointed out, would not that be part of the physical world, necessarily, if it is visible? I don't believe that they are seeing the 'spirits' of people who have died but have been unable to fully 'leave' this dimension somehow. I believe that people who have died can be sensed not far away (indeed, I have experienced this myself, and not simply from habit or wishful thinking, either), but not in physical form - they have left the physical, is my view.

I have never had the experience of seeing a ghost or anything that could be called like a ghost. Which naturally is why I do not believe in 'ghosts' as they appear in the popular imagination (if I was to see one, maybe my view would be somewhat different - but still I would be searching for a 'rational' scientific explanation for whatever I had seen! My usual response to anything that looks weird or inexplicable is "Okay, so how was that done...?").

However my aunt had an experience once, she is a very practical and down-to-earth kind of person who never gave much thought to ghosts or any such... One day she was sitting in her car at traffic lights for quite a long time, and she heard a child crying, and she began to get a very disturbed and distressed feeling and feel really upset. She looked all around to try and locate the child, but couldn't see anything nearby. Later on she learned that in the pub on that corner near where her car was stopped, the landlord many years ago had been arrested for locking up a child into a small room and starving it to death.

My father (again a very practical person who didn't actually believe in ghosts) went once into a building (to be exact, an old pumping station), and he said that he had a feeling from that place like someone had died there from an accident. (He actually said "falling into the machinery".) About 30 years later I discovered, what had previously not been made public knowledge, that when the place was built, someone had died in the building of it, from falling on a loose plank from the top of the building right down into the basement (there was a kind of 'well' all the way down). So not accurate, but a sense of the untimely death connected with the building.

My fiance had what I consider to be a similar kind of experience although without realising it. Recently we were looking for reception venues, and checked out various buildings. There was one place that he said was really horrible and he would not have it for the world! I didn't think much about this because everyone's taste is different, although the place was not so bad, not great but... whatever. (lol). Anyway, I later discover that someone died of an accident in that place, and I wonder if maybe that was the kind of thing he was sensing in the atmosphere... He is kind of superstitious so maybe sensitive to that kind of thing, but he didn't know about this, so can't have been imagining things.

[Arlet]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

Did you use a ouija board to call ghosts? Did anything happen? I never tried to call anything up, spirit, ghost or anything. I was always concerned that something would show up and I wouldn't know how to make it go away!

Well, i used my necklace... ( Long story...)
I was really into wicca that year, it was on my b-day party.
We asked the ghost what the names of the grandparents were of a friend of mine.
And the ghost awnsered it right.
So, all people were screaming and stuff.

About the ouija board, i want to try it once.
Maybe i can ask a few things

[Mars Man]

Thank you Goldiegirl ! I enjoyed reading all the other episodes which have been presented since my earlier post, and hope to go over them a little and look for connections, similarities, and unsimilarities.

I'd like to first answer to the following point made by Goldiegirl, though.

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

A friend of mine who is a Jehovah's Witness told me that was I saw were demons and satanic and that I shouldn't think of them or try to find out more. He said there are no such things as ghosts and such.

The Watchtower Society goes very closely by a particular, rather literal reading in the cases that context allows, of the Protestant Bible. The Society does, at least in most cases, make an attempt to pay attention to the original tongues of the biblical documents.

The earlier of the Hebrew writings (what we usually call the Old Testament) does not evidence the belief in any remaining of the consciousness after death. Other than a scene in Samuel (which could be second temple, rather than earlier) and the ideas of resurrection in Daniel, the being (human and animal) is no more at death.

The Greek writings of the first century that make up the New Testament, taken in light of the earlier Hebrew understanding, can be seen to mostly support that view too--mostly (there are some weak points there, in their arguments)

This means, then, that all such 'supernatural' events that are often attributed to 'ghosts' or 'spirits' are actually, in WT teaching, those very 'spiritual beings' which took on bodily form and married as many human women as they could get, thus making the giants, back before Noah's flood. They had been confined to the earth, in a sense of 'activity range.' These are what later came to be called 'demons.' ( we must keep in mind that that word basically had meant 'deity.')

Interestingly enough, Bible aside, this understanding of what the animal is, in all that we can know at the moment through scientific method, and natural historical studies, gives us the same understanding. It is most likely that upon death, that which makes the person work really, the brain, and all that it is, 'dissolves' back into so many atomic particles and whatnot.

Once the brain is dead, the animal is no more--no active conscious nor drive of metabolic functions. Once the physical build has fully broken up, that very build is no more--regardless of being re-used in another build, another animal.

I will go on, but will stop here for now...leaving one thought. Other than that occasional falling rock from the solar system, all the water that we have here on this planet, has fundamentally been, all the water we have ever had here on this planet. The same is true for every other element of the physical planet--including what has been used to make every living animal that has ever been here on this planet. (not off-topic, but deep embedding)

[Sarapva]

I do believe in a non-physical world where people (ghosts, spirits, etc.) live. I've never had an experience where I actually saw ghosts or spirits, but I've heard other people talk about their experiences (hearing screaming in a certain house, having things moved without anyone moving them, and my great-aunt once saw her sister after she died).

This all reminds me of the TV program "Lisa Williams: Life Among the Dead". I usually don't watch regular TV programs, but I saw this by accident recently and it's interesting. Lisa Williams is obviously British (by her accent), but lives in California and does - (can't think of the word used now). She gets in touch with people who have died and helps them communicate with the people who knew them. Sometimes it's a mother who lost a child, someone who lost a sister/brother or someone who hears and sees things in their house and they want an explanation. Has anyone else seen this program? It seems very genuine.

[Goldiegirl]

I've watched both Lisa Williams and John Edwards (Crossing Over), they seem sincere and truthful. I really like Ghost Hunters on the Sci Fi channel. They take a scientific approach to studying paranormal activity. Many times, people hear things that are pipes banging, or the furnace and the shadows are caused by car lights through windows. So they don't call many places "haunted". They go into the different types of hauntings, like shadow people, residual hauntings, poltergeists, full bodied apparitions, EVP's (electronic voice phenomenons) etc.

[Mars Man]

And then continuing with the terms. . .

It is most obvious that the common idea behind the word 'ghost,' is that it is a person, an individual who had existed in our physical world, yet who now exists, pretty much as they were in the physical realm, in the spiritual realm. The 'ghost' is, in most cases, the very person.

This definition is most obviously incorrect and untrue. There are simply too many things going against the common 'ghosts' reporting that we hear of. Has anyone ever seen, heard report of, or imagined a 'ghost' with missing or unusable limbs, naked, blind, mentally challenged, ill, seemingly intent on being friendly in a normal humanly manner, or as an infant? How many 'ghost' animals have been reported? What about 'ghost' dinosaurs? Neanderthal or homo erectus? Has anyone ever caught sight of a 'ghost' spider, fly, worm or tree or flower...for that matter?

That is something to think about. What would the point be in a group of people standing around talking, one old lady (and why old?) trying to talk to anyone? What would be the point of a person running quickly down a street and then turning a corner and running off? What would be the point of someone following another into a restaurant, sitting down at the table across from that person, then soon getting up and going into the bathroom, never to come out again--the customer asking the waitress puzzledly why she had brought put two glasses of water on the table. What is the point?

What first comes to my mind, is that firstly, there are much more likely no such things as ghosts; because the complete 100% being (human, animal, insect, plant, bacteria, virus, etc.) goes into something else at the end of the life cycle. All the material on the earth is recycled into new material.

Then, all such observations, as pointed out in some above posts, are with our brains. We do not need to have the motion of waves through the air to hear a sound. All we need is to have that particular area of the cortex stimulated. REM is a good time to go through such experiences.

All observations are relative to our knowledge at a fairly present state. Life has been very, very abundant of the earth over the last several million years--as far as can be discerned--and yet we never have observations of beings that we have no concept of. . . and when these may occur, we tend to put them in the area of extraterrestrial beings, such as 'Grays' and 'Smen,' rather than our common definition of 'ghosts.'

Therefore, as argued for on this thread, since the brain along with consciousness and awareness is totally disseminated (for all practical purposes) and due to the far greater likelihood of consciousness and mental awarness being a direct and immediate function of neurons and physical chemicals, it is clear that when a person dies, that person no longer exists as a whole individual.

This will also bring to moot, the general idea of 'soul,' as well, because 'soul' can best be described as the being itself. Therefore when your pet goldfish dies, leave it in the water threre, and you will be able to see for yourself what happens to the soul--pardon my grotesqueness here, but to make the point clear--it dissolves into the water, may be taken up by the plants in the water, partially digested by other fish then excremented back into to water to be taken up and recycled by other life forms. (or on a macro scale, settle to the bottom of the body of water, becoming a part of a shale rock formation.

I argue that we can say that there is no such thing as a 'ghost' as usually thought of then. That does not eliminate the observations, it simply means they have other root causes/sources. In the same stoke, we can say that there is nothing other than a possible impersonal energy of sort, and information particles that are left over from the brains of all animals when they die--and these are scattered about and often are taken up and reused by other life forms. Therefore, no 'soul' separates from the body of any human when that human dies, which maintains the fully aware and conscious state of that individual at the time of death.

[Sarapva]

I have to disagree with you, Mars Man, although I can understand your argument and have heard the scientific and logical reasons many times for not believing in what we can't see and hear physically. But there are too many instances of people who have had these experiences for it to all be explained as a physical phenomenon. In this modern world we live in we don't often want to think that there are a lot of things going on we don't understand or that seem illogical. But things always seem illogical until we do understand them. It's "safer" in a way to believe that everything is physical, because then we don't have to admit that there is a whole world of things we don't understand.

Even the old philosophers believed in an afterlife. Here's an excerpt from Plato's "Phaedo", with Socrates talking to Simmias:

Socrates: Is there or is there not an absolute justice?

Simmias: Assuredly there is.

Socrates: And an absolute beauty and absolute good?

Simmias: Of course.

Socrates: But did you ever behold any of them with your eyes?

Simmias: Certainly not.

Socrates: Or did you ever reach them with any other bodily sense? - and I speak not of these alone, but of absolute greatness, and health, and strength, and of the essence or true nature of everything. Has the reality of them ever been perceived by you through the bodily organs?

[Chi65]

Sorry for interruption, I have read a few posts here with great interest and would like to say a lot to the theme, but am too tired right now (and too busy the last days).
But I found something interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW0B1sipLBI
as one of many more theremin-videos around, as you may see.
This is also called a ghost-instrument, you will surely find out, why.

Enjoy the interlude!

[Goldiegirl]

What happens to our energy or spark when we die. Does it just stop. I know our cells die, and we are recycled back into the earth...ashes to ashes. But we are energy as well. I understand what Sarapva is saying. I was just watching the movie Santa Clause ( I love Christmas movies) and the little boy in trying to get people to believe in Santa asks his step father if he has ever seen a million dollars..answer...no, and the boy points out that a million dollars does exist even if you haven't seen it. That's the point with these odd happenings. Just because you haven't experienced something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As for people not seeing animals, my friend Gin swears, she sees her beloved black German Shepherd looking in her window that has been dead for close to 30 years. Perhaps people do see dinosaurs or bugs, maybe they are called crazy? I don't know what I saw. All I know is that I saw people, and an old lady was trying to talk to me. It seems too odd for it to just be coincidence, that another little girl sees and old lady in my old house and she is talking to her as well. I know the story of the angels who had sex on earth and their children were giants....well....the problem is there is more than one religion. So saying these visions are satanic or demonic just doesn't answer the question for me. i don't believe the bible told a true happening of events but rather in many instances is a parable, but I think that is another thread.

[Mars Man]

A quicky here, and then I will get back. I fully understand the points made by both Sarapva san and Goldiegirl, and yet cannot help but feel that a secure grasp of what I have written has somehow been missed a little. I will get back to that soon enough...I too, have been a little tied up these days, even when coming on line--as those of us who do help in moderating do have some 'work' to do, from time to time.

I will explain ...surely by tomorrow night Japan time...if not earlier. It might be to good to recheck what I have written here, along with posts of mine on the other thread dealing with 'spirits' 'soul' and so on, as well as my points regarding the Bible. This will help, I reason, in pinpointing my position. THEN....I hope to hear some data supporting other arguments too. Let's discuss this carefully and fully !!

[Fel1city]

So long as you are comfortable in your beliefs then that's fine: it's when the "ram down the throat" issues occur I have problems. No one religion is better/more correct etc than any other: so many cultural issues are caught up in religion it is the culture/personal behaviours that is important.

PS LOVE that Avatar!!

[Chi65]

What I was trying to say with the ghost instrument is, that this a form that can be measured, but:
Some koreans are on the track now (remember, still a lot of shamanism over there, plus special voice-trainings, that have their origin in shamanism, thus are believed and traditionally experienced to effect something within and around you)
They play with the poles of that system in a whole big room now! That is, their movement dictates the voices, not as long known dancers "interpret" sounds etc., but vice versa. There have been many other artists working on making movements heard and music visible via movements, but mostly very humble compaired to this.
Just an information in between.

Because:
I am a synaestete and know from my dancings, that after a while, I often "feel" something close to solid/manifest, even becoming colourfull and leaving tactile feelings etc. when I am dancing. I can concentrate on this and even play with this "invisible", form it. It is mostly first kind of flux, but can become quite clearly "almost" as if something is there. sometimes i play with it with others. What about pantomime, for example?
That is not so uncommon, by the way.

Now I wish to come to come to a creative process, or even "the" creative process".
You get an inspiration(spirit!), a vision, an urge, a dream (many artists say clearly, that they HAVE to make this and that, without knowing, why, also filmers, Zhang Yimou is one of them, and I had some amazing experiences with him, but maybe on another occasion more).
Now imagine a certain relatively easy process:
An idea, that becomes more and more clear, then slowly manifests, then fades away, becomes invisible again (for example memories of something, talks about something, that may not even exist any more, but have once). But it leaves unremovable traces in your brain, you can call it up again for further use any time, it has become timeless on this level. And an artist would maybe start another piece of creation from memory, from where it "touched" you. The same way again, first just a vague idea, then some scetches maybe, then a sculpture or drawing, or piece of music etc., and it starts all over again. A bit like chinese whispers.
For quick changes, you already know the renga people in Japan. . .(who work with this principle)? Its somewhere in the forum, I have seen. They are also quite famous already an (Aichi expo and other places of similar level)
So, something is "in the air", but also was in the air before and is after.
Even if no intrument can measure the before or after, it definitely was/is there.
Ghosts, exactly.
I have often painted such "ghosts", they are my friends.
I have for example seen one from the corner of my eye (like a big black bird fluttering in the corner of one room, ravensize), and went checking the whole surrounding, more than sceptical, nothing, but as soon as I was on the same place as before, it was there again. . .and only when a certain piece of music was played. This explained itself later, not rational, but that "ghost" manifested later, to exactly that very same piece of music, and even closer to me than before. A human, said to be a raven by indians, another african singer, who came into focus via the receiver of the piece of music. (The receiver did not know about that bird-experience in his house then, but I told him afterwards, he also got the "vibes" thus!). He was as surprised by a real provable series of coincidences coming with this. I just wrote it all down, as often.
It turned out to be a kind of message from a dead african singer(he died much too early and young, a tragic story), whom we both loved very much, thus he left traces in both of us, that led to a pleasant meeting and further friendship. That dead musician practically has brought us together for something (which again is a new chapter). . .People ARE that sensitive. . .
Something similar happened to me many times. This is only one example.
I could write a ghoststories book myself, hehe.

Thus its a pity, that you, Goldiegirl could not get the message from that old lady. She left her "traces" to whatnot. . .and thats for you to find out, still.

Don't worry, I am not crazy, my father was a scientist, I have discussed such things many times and have my ideas about it.

Great thread!

[Mars Man]

I appreciate the posts, people. Nice! Having read through your post twice, and as carefully as I could, Chi65 san, I think I have caught a glimpse of the understanding you wish to present. (and thanks for the theremin link...my friend here in Japan plays one--his local performance was very nice...but I think many couldn't quite appreciate the music so much)

Again, in keeping the definition for the word 'ghost' to be: A person or animal which has--by all other known means and processes--died, and yet is in the exact state of mind and body in another, non-physical make-up.

It cannot be denied that this is THE single, most widely used definition, and so I hope that those partaking in the discussion will keep this is mind when using the word.

The state of 'seeing'

I would firstly like to point out that our only source of perception and interpretation is without any doubt whatsoever, the brain. This is true for all animated animals...even those like the sea-snail that loses its brain upon becoming fixed. The obvious purpose for the brain is to move, and thus survive.

Light comes in photons, as a wave or as a particle. Even as a wave, it disturbs, sets into action, moves other particles--just as sound is the disturbance of particles due to a wave of whatever frequency. By means of the rods and cones within the eye, signals are created from the photon bombardment.

Yet light also, is a measured thing. The common human eye catches light within the range of 400-700 nanometers on the electromagnetic spectrum. That spectrum, as thus far known, goes from less that a nanometer of wavelength to 10 meters of wavelength--that of AM radio. Of course, therefore, we can't see AM radio waves...what would life be like if we could? Wow...

All the recieved waves by the 'net' on the retina excite a chemical/electric 'dance' (as it were) to the thalamas, and then on to the visual cortex, which then also sets off a spasm of firings which 'interpret' the signals recieved. All the while, feedback from other processing nodes and systems are interconnecting to 'recognize' and 'patternize' the signal block.

The end result is that what we see, is, in the final analysis, what the brain makes of the signals it recieves. . .nothing more, nothing less. To this degree, and in this manner of speaking, what we see is called 'the internal reality.' It is real, only, it is a natural and existing part of the universe that is only in our brains...and not external.

Of all the case studies there have been, even the few which I have come across in my studies, we have all kinds of things which show this--from tasting color, to seeing the outside world in a snapshot format, (no motion detectable) to 'seeing' sound and feelings. (as in the blind-from-birth man who could fairly representatively draw and paint things that he'd never ever seen.)

Therefore, we could well imagine the situation in which a person 'sees' stimuli recieved via a different receptor than just the eyes. In such a case, as has been shown in some studies and brain proding, there need not be any 'external,' visually perceivble object. It is also most evidently the case that simply electromagnetic waves within the visual range passing through the brain does not stimulate the neurons such as to cause the systems to fire. Thus (and this is a little foreshadowing here) you cannot simply recieve nor have perception created by raw energy or particle excitement.

This will be an embedded process, as I had said before, so please bear with me. I WILL touch on all points and objections raised so far...and will do so in detail...over time. (of which I really, really wish I had much more) [and I want to keep my posts kind of short, and as readable as possible]

[Goldiegirl]

Ghost, I suppose most people would assume that it means someone/thing who was once alive in the physical sense here on earth. Grey aliens, are from space, but could be another dimension here on earth too and not from space. I read a book that said the past, present and future are all happening at the same time. Well what if the "layers" of time get mixed up. Like disc's, they don't have enough room on them to store an entire movie usually so they are double layered, sometimes the laser reads the wrong layer. What if that is what we see as the strange phenomena we call ghosts or spirits or paranormal activity etc?

[Sarapva]

That's an interesting thought, Goldiegirl! There are so many things in life that are not physical - feelings, thoughts and concepts (the "law" is not a physical thing, and yet most of us abide by it). I know that feelings and thoughts have been explained scientifically as originating in the brain, but I just don't believe it's all physical. I also need to research some more arguments for this.

I look forward, Mars Man, to your explanations of all this.

Thanks, Chi65, for the theremin link. I listened to it - I've never seen anything like that before! It does show a link between the physical and non-physical.

[made of stone]

I do think I've seen a few ghosts, (I was absolutely certain at the time, twice, and so were the friends I was with, but after the event it's pretty easy (natural??) to try to explain what happened away as something else: once the two day - old goose bumps go down, of course ;)

I've had a few inexplicable events recently - seemingly from recently-departed loved-ones 'guiding' me in different ways. All have been positive, quite incredible things,.

I appreciate the scientific approach - I am myself the most deeply critical and deeply analytical person - but I challenge anyone to convince me now that these things will be explained by science in the next thousand years (if our planet lasts that long!!)

mos xxx

[Chi65]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

Ghost, I suppose most people would assume that it means someone/thing who was once alive in the physical sense here on earth. Grey aliens, are from space, but could be another dimension here on earth too and not from space. I read a book that said the past, present and future are all happening at the same time. Well what if the "layers" of time get mixed up. Like disc's, they don't have enough room on them to store an entire movie usually so they are double layered, sometimes the laser reads the wrong layer. What if that is what we see as the strange phenomena we call ghosts or spirits or paranormal activity etc?

Goldie, that is also one of my points, because the traditional asian understanding has often been one beyond time, and thus the modern idea of the multiverses is not an unfamiliar one.
The point is, that the layers constantly interact, not just mix up, in fact forwards and backwards, like your memory and your future-ideas simultaneously in a way.
Go to watch some images under Google and multivers, to get an idea.
Even if I tried to explain just the one way above, but you can see it as much curved, if you like (Einstein is near!).
Funny enough, that by trying to understand "dark matter"(in contrary to white, "real" , thus material, substancial matter), scientists come to a similar understanding, but have not yet made the obvious link between this.
(I am also on a scientist forum, where this is a theme, but without ghosts, hehe)
I once made an according little animation-film with a japanese friend's(he was a project manager for Sony at that time and was as interested thus connected) friend, some years ago. He had absolutely no problem to get my point and even played further with this image to my surprise. This never happened in any western country, where I tried for years to explain this.
I am with you in this.
Which book is it, that you just read?

Sorry, Mars man, but she really hits an important point!
I will nevertheless read your posts with great interest, but the full understanding cannot be made without her idea. She is up to something good.

Originally Posted by Sarapva

That's an interesting thought, Goldiegirl! There are so many things in life that are not physical - feelings, thoughts and concepts (the "law" is not a physical thing, and yet most of us abide by it). I know that feelings and thoughts have been explained scientifically as originating in the brain, but I just don't believe it's all physical. I also need to research some more arguments for this.
I look forward, Mars Man, to your explanations of all this.
Thanks, Chi65, for the theremin link. I listened to it - I've never seen anything like that before! It does show a link between the physical and non-physical.

You got my point for posting this, Sarapva

I am sure, that it also has to do with the reception of a non-physical phenomenom. Only, WHAT?
We may have to wait for some further korean experiments in art maybe, they are also up to something.
But it rings a strong bell.