Is There Middle Ground for the Middle East--what would make a compromise?

[Mars Man]

From the Mediterrenian sea to the Tigris River, Mt. Hermon to the tip of the Sinai peninsula--a land of many struggles over the course of thousands of years--lies a thorn of an issue even in our time. Can a compromise be made? What might it take?

This thread is for a discussion of what a person might make of the turmoil in that region, and what might be done to reconcile, to compromise, to put an end to the fighting and build trust and friendship.

The theme of this thread will have little to do with religious belief-systems, though points from tenets of such may have bearing from time to time. This thread is not to belittle nor speak ill of other members, but to debate and discuss the problems, possible causes that had given rise to the problems, and how the conflict might be resolved. Let's be fair, as open-minded as possible, and polite.

I would think that less concern about national or national groups interests and more concern about human interests, would be a good starting attitude. At the same time, this would probably have to mean lessening of religious exclusiveness.

[scorpion da black]

a compromise is a way to solve the never ending battle of the middle east with no blood spilled.

Palestine for the Arabs and Israel for the Jews...
the problem is Israel and Palestine is the same land....and when we have two people claiming the same land and both are so insisting on the righteousness of their battle....we will have blood spilled, blood will rain with no cease....

Israelis claim that Palestine is their religious land, the promised land that God have granted them.
the Palestinians believe that Palestine is their land the land of their ancestors...the Canaanites who embraces Islam and that made the land even greater in importance to them and all the Muslims of the world....it is the land that they believe prophet Muhammad visited in the miraculous one night visit to Jerusalem and the heavens ...the land where he prayed with all the prophets...

any sane Muslims wouldn't compromise his holly land ...and neither do i wish for...
BUT
that will mean great blood bath.
if in any case peace can be achievable ... then compromise can be achieved...and war can be avoided.
a and we can all share...
if both sides are not ready to compromise then i am afraid war is inevitable ....

[Mars Man]

Yes, you have touched upon one big problem there, the history. It is quite certain a thing that the tribes who had inhabited the land from way back before the tribes of Abram's decsendents who had moved into the general area had started to fight for control, were Cannanite peoples. Of course they were not Muslem, for there had been no Islam at that time, and my guess is that if Islam had moved into the area at that time, the same thing would have happened--a killing off of them for their wicked and godless ways would have occured.

By the time the kingdom of David had been concretized, a certain area of land, Israel, had been seen as being Jewish land. The Assyrians took it for a while, (or at least part of it) then the Babylonians, the Medes and Persians kind broke up Babylonian control of it, then the Greeks controled it, afterwhich the Romans took over. Did I miss anyone?

If we can consider--while we are talking about history (and there's always room for 'if's in such talk)--that the religious leaders and socially strong among the Jewish people had not revolted against Rome, that little plot of land would have been Jewish up until the late 6th century or so, when the warring leaders of Islam likely would have pushed into it, and taken control. In that case even, the Crusades would likely have occured as recorded...but to no avail. And of course, if Hitler had not taken his crazy course against the people of that religious belief-system and heredity, the nation state of Israel would probably not have been suggested by the winning parties of that war--had it happened.

So, whose land is it really, historically speaking? How far back would we have to go? That's why I personally reason that in trying to reach a compromise today, we cannot include nor give consideration to historical claims, to any degree...not even in the 19th century. We have to put all history aside, and take a snapshot still life look at the very present, and come up with a working compromise.

The first thing I would suggest, would be education to eradicate the tendency to think of any area of the land as historically belonging to any one group or governance.

[scorpion da black]

i will give you a short story...
the Argentinian people claimed the Falkland islands as historically theirs, so did the British.
we have two people claiming the right to have the land....
some will side with Britain and some will side with the Argentines...
no one can know who this land is for sure...
how it was solved?
through war, one side overpowered the other...
now the battling sides of the middle east will either have to cancel the one another and the victor claims this land. or we can have a peaceful solution where the land can be shared...
as much as i am unsatisfied with that idea...it is the best way...
a war in the middle east isn't like a war in any other spot on earth, it could spark world war 3...
a compromise should be found ...or a war where one part completely annihilates the other and that thought is outrageous!

another issue is trust....if the Palestinians do any more compromising; what ensures that the Israelis will do the same?
the Palestinians gave a lot of compromising in the history of negotiation with Israel. like camp David and Oslo ...and yet there was no solution...
every Arab is doubtful about Annapolis ...what if the flaws of previous negotiations happen again...where the Palestinians compromised a lot of their rights and lands and still returned empty handed.
i look to the negotiations with hope but yet great doubt and prejudice.

[Mars Man]

Yes, I well remember that politically worked-up conflict over that small Island group down there. Even in that conflict the same principle could be applied. Of course the most basic result is that the land belonged to neither the UK nor Argentina.

However, as you have gone into some detail to show, regarding that patch of earth there in the around the Jordan river area, it again becomes clear that what is most needed is an education program to help all peoples there learn that the land doesn't belong to anyone ! That's the first step. The next step would be to remove borders and walls all the while having the local seats of government relinquish some degree of power to the United Nations.

[pugtm]

Originally Posted by Mars Man

Yes, you have touched upon one big problem there, the history. It is quite certain a thing that the tribes who had inhabited the land from way back before the tribes of Abram's decsendents who had moved into the general area had started to fight for control, were Cannanite peoples. Of course they were not Muslem, for there had been no Islam at that time, and my guess is that if Islam had moved into the area at that time, the same thing would have happened--a killing off of them for their wicked and godless ways would have occured.
By the time the kingdom of David had been concretized, a certain area of land, Israel, had been seen as being Jewish land. The Assyrians took it for a while, (or at least part of it) then the Babylonians, the Medes and Persians kind broke up Babylonian control of it, then the Greeks controled it, afterwhich the Romans took over. Did I miss anyone?
If we can consider--while we are talking about history (and there's always room for 'if's in such talk)--that the religious leaders and socially strong among the Jewish people had not revolted against Rome, that little plot of land would have been Jewish up until the late 6th century or so, when the warring leaders of Islam likely would have pushed into it, and taken control. In that case even, the Crusades would likely have occured as recorded...but to no avail. And of course, if Hitler had not taken his crazy course against the people of that religious belief-system and heredity, the nation state of Israel would probably not have been suggested by the winning parties of that war--had it happened.
So, whose land is it really, historically speaking? How far back would we have to go? That's why I personally reason that in trying to reach a compromise today, we cannot include nor give consideration to historical claims, to any degree...not even in the 19th century. We have to put all history aside, and take a snapshot still life look at the very present, and come up with a working compromise.
The first thing I would suggest, would be education to eradicate the tendency to think of any area of the land as historically belonging to any one group or governance.

the maccabees took over and created a dynasty for 100 years between Rome and greece

[Goldiegirl]

They've been fighting for years upon years there. I don't believe there is any way to make peace there. There will never be compromise as that would mean each side would have to lose a little, whether it's land, power, money. I also get the feeling that as much as everyone talks that they want peace, ultimately, that's not what is wanted. The only real peace is when one side annihilates the other. But then I am sure we will be in another world war.

[pugtm]

its already happened and we are in that war which incidentally is the final war that starts of the messianic era. the war of gog and magog.

[centrajapan]

Israel-Palestine conflict is very easy to solve. Israel pulls back to 1967 borders. Palestine gets East Jerusalem as their capital give freedom to the Palestinians in return a normalisation to Israel by all Arab countries.

Israel, US does nto want peace they are fine with conflict management. The millitary industry is big business. It makes it much more lucrative for the powerful people in US not to have peace.

[Mars Man]

Originally Posted by pugtm

the maccabees took over and created a dynasty for 100 years between Rome and greece

That's right ! I did leave someone out. Oh well...

I seriously doubt that take on Gog and Magog. Also I don't really think the simple steps that centrajapan san has spelled out will do either...unless, at least, a major education overhaul were to be set up and carried out (by all parties).

A more rounded out, fair and balanced education in a large area of subjects would first have to take place. That would more plausibly lessen the rigidity between in- and out-group. If that could be set into motion, then after some time, what centrajapan san has laid out can surely work--although I'd still suggest going even further...remove all borders and give more control to the UN. (yeah, I've been a dreamer all along, just like John (as in Lennon) has spelled out for us)

[RegDunlap]

The thing is, the Palestinians ALREADY have a country to return to. It's called "Jordan".

It is easy to forget that the plight ofthe Palestinians has more to do with their fellow Arabs than with the Israelis. After all, it was the Arab League that viciously invaded Israel in 1948, attempted to exterminate every Jew there, and encouraged the Palestinians to leaveso that the slaughter would be easier. In the time since, the Palestinians have been kept caged up by their "brothers" in religion and culture. Refused rights and citizenship, denied employment, and kept in squalor.

[Mars Man]

Originally Posted by RegDunlap

After all, it was the Arab League that viciously invaded Israel in 1948, ...

While that cannot be denied, I would strongly argue, again, that as we discuss what will amount to middle ground, we will have to set 'history' aside, as that can never clear up the future possibles.

Also, let's do be careful not to let the thread slide off-topic. Thanks !

ps I guess I could say 'Welcome to JREF' RegDunlap san, but alas, it has no meaning.

[centrajapan]

The thing is, the Palestinians ALREADY have a country to return to. It's called "Jordan".

Not! Palestinians are not leaving. Ethnic cleansing is not tolerated these days. I am actually in favor of a 1 state solution where Jews, Palestinian Arabs wether they are Muslims, Christians or Jews get equal treatment. 1 person 1 vote.

If not that Palestinians have already agreed to make a state consisting of only 20% of historic Palestine divided into 3 and Israel woun't even give them that.

[RegDunlap]

Originally Posted by centrajapan

Not! Palestinians are not leaving. Ethnic cleansing is not tolerated these days. I am actually in favor of a 1 state solution where Jews, Palestinian Arabs wether they are Muslims, Christians or Jews get equal treatment. 1 person 1 vote.
If not that Palestinians have already agreed to make a state consisting of only 20% of historic Palestine divided into 3 and Israel woun't even give them that.

Well, of the original Mandate of Palestine , the Arabs got something like 60%. They THEN got a big chunk of the remainder upon the formation of Israel. they THEN went to war to try and steal the last bit. Fortunately, they lost. Having lost (repeatedly), they cannot now try and claim what they originally tried to take by force.

So, you favour a one state solution? That puts you in the same camp as Iran, Syria, Hamas, and Fatah.

The voting you talk about? Already happens in Israel my friend. Pity it doesnt happen in the surrounding nations...

[centrajapan]

Originally Posted by RegDunlap

Well, of the original Mandate of Palestine , the Arabs got something like 60%. They THEN got a big chunk of the remainder upon the formation of Israel. they THEN went to war to try and steal the last bit. Fortunately, they lost. Having lost (repeatedly), they cannot now try and claim what they originally tried to take by force.
So, you favour a one state solution? That puts you in the same camp as Iran, Syria, Hamas, and Fatah.
The voting you talk about? Already happens in Israel my friend. Pity it doesnt happen in the surrounding nations...

I will quote Ben Gurion.

If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

The Zionists came into a land which was already inhabited by others. It was an outright theft of property. Israel is guilty of etnic cleansing.

Palestine had democratic elections, didn't they? And Hamas won. Incase you don't know Palestinian politics. There is Fateh and Hamas. US supports Fateh. So how can Fateh and Hamas all have the same label?

Israel can either annex the rest of Palestine or give freedom to Palestinians. It is not difficult. Racial discrimination, oppression, segregation is out of fashion.

[Mars Man]

I do not see anything in the immediately above posts that tend to lead to some point on how any compromise can be met without dragging the idea for such through history...which simply will not work.

If there were any strong supporting evidence that relying on history were important for reaching the goal of a compromise, please do present it, but I am rather sure it will utterly fail. We cannot go back far enough, and have any win/win situation.

AGAIN...LET'S BE CAREFUL NOT TO LET IT SLIDE OFF-TOPIC too much.

[RegDunlap]

To get back on topic, there cant be any compromise in the region until the stain of radical Islam is cleansed from the area. Once the various kleptocracies are replaced by representative government, and the rule of law begins to gain respect, THEN the conditions will be right to start thinking about a solution.

The treatment of the Palestinians, particularly by their fellow Arabs, is a sin. It needs to be addressed.

The basic right to existence of Israel as a sovereign and free nation also needs to be loudly and publicly guaranteed by its neighbours.

Until that time, blood will flow.

[centrajapan]

The treatment of the Palestinians, particularly by their fellow Arabs, is a sin. It needs to be addressed.

So is the treatement of the Palestinians by Israel. remember it was Israel who created this problem.

To solve a problem one has to deal with the cause. This is human nature.

The basic right to existence of Israel as a sovereign and free nation also needs to be loudly and publicly guaranteed by its neighbours.

If Israel agrees to pull back to the international recognised borders which are stated by the UN res 242 every Arab country have said that they will normalise their relationship. So what is Israel waiting for?

[RegDunlap]

Originally Posted by centrajapan

So is the treatement of the Palestinians by Israel. remember it was Israel who created this problem.
To solve a problem one has to deal with the cause. This is human nature.
If Israel agrees to pull back to the international recognised borders which are stated by the UN res 242 every Arab country have said that they will normalise their relationship. So what is Israel waiting for?

There you go dashing back into the past again.

The problem was created by the Arab League when they invaded Israel, a sovereign nation recognized and created by the UN. Instead of using diplomacy, the Arabs mistakenly thought they could take the easy path and murder the Jews, thus freeing up the land for their Palestinian brothers.

I agree that Israel isnt perfect by any means, but I would rather be a Palestinian in Israel than a Palestinian in Egypt, or Syria, or Saudi Arabia, etc.

[pugtm]

thanks and i agree. i would favor a different compromise. they get gaza and if they behave we let them have a little more. but since we would recognize them as a nation state if so much as a bullet comes out of their it is a declaration of war and we go all out on them. since they do not follow geneva conventions they have no rights under them and yeah. my solution. it gives them a stick and a carrot. behave and you get more dont and we will go back to fighting. easy and simple as that.
and yes jordan is part of palestine the british stole from us. let them go there if they dislike it so much.

[Mars Man]

With this educational program I am speaking of...and I will life a finger in trying to deny that it's an idea WELL ahead of its time...will right from the start, begin tackling this 'we' .vs. 'they' mentality. That is the starting point. There is no is no they, only 'we,' you see?!!

[centrajapan]

they get gaza and if they behave we let them have a little more.

Palestinians are being oppressed. Just as blacks in South Africa, African Americans in USA were and you say if they behave. Would it not be better to ask the people to stop oppression than to tell people how to stop resisting oppression.

I am all in favour of educating people. And the fact remains. Israel is a racist apartheid country which practice severe racial discrimination.

Just what part of this is it that people especially Americans don't get?

[Hezam]

To get back on topic, there cant be any compromise in the region until the stain of radical Islam is cleansed from the area

you must apologize ...you heart all Muslims ...

[Hezam]

thanks and i agree. i would favor a different compromise. they get gaza and if they behave we let them have a little more. but since we would recognize them as a nation state if so much as a bullet comes out of their it is a declaration of war and we go all out on them. since they do not follow geneva conventions they have no rights under them and yeah. my solution. it gives them a stick and a carrot. behave and you get more dont and we will go back to fighting. easy and simple as that.
and yes jordan is part of palestine the british stole from us. let them go there if they dislike it so much.

Stuped ..your mind look like the Children .....

it is bigger than you think ...

If you have a good ideas put it here but ideas like these are not serious...

[RegDunlap]

Originally Posted by centrajapan

Palestinians are being oppressed. Just as blacks in South Africa, African Americans in USA were

No, they arent. I dont recall blacks having voting rights and members of parliament in either of those countries.

I am all in favour of educating people. And the fact remains. Israel is a racist apartheid country which practice severe racial discrimination.
Just what part of this is it that people especially Americans don't get?

Education is a good subject. Why not take the time to see exactly what 'education' that Palestinian kids get in Gaza and the west bank? Shocking.