Freedom of speech. Free press.

[centrajapan]

Here is a ranking of which countries have the most free press. I strongly believe in free speech though I know it always is not easy to draw the line. Censorship, no thanks.

The ranking
Rank Country Note
1 Iceland 0,75
- Norway 0,75
3 Estonia 1,00
- Slovakia 1,00
5 Belgium 1,50
- Finland 1,50
- Sweden 1,50
8 Denmark 2,00
- Ireland 2,00
- Portugal 2,00
11 Switzerland 3,00
12 Latvia 3,50
- Netherlands 3,50
14 Czech Republic 4,00
15 New Zealand 4,17
16 Austria 4,25
17 Hungary 4,50
18 Canada 4,88
19 Trinidad and Tobago 5,00
20 Germany 5,75
21 Costa Rica 6,50
- Slovenia 6,50
23 Lithuania 7,00
24 United Kingdom 8,25
25 Mauritius 8,50
- Namibia 8,50
27 Jamaica 8,63
28 Australia 8,79
29 Ghana 9,00
30 Greece 9,25
31 France 9,75
32 Taiwan 10,00
33 Spain 10,25
34 Bosnia and Herzegovina 11,17
35 Italy 11,25
36 Macedonia 11,50
37 Japan 11,75
- Uruguay 11,75
39 Chile 12,13
- South Korea 12,13
41 Croatia 12,50
42 Romania 12,75
43 South Africa 13,00
44 Israel (Israeli territory) 13,25
45 Cape Verde 14,00
- Cyprus 14,00
47 Nicaragua 14,25
48 United States of America 14,50
49 Togo 15,17
50 Mauritania 15,50

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24025

Who are these people who come with these statistics?

Reporters Without Borders

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=9594

I am happy to see Norway doing very well. I wish Japan was a little bit more free.

[RegDunlap]

I find that list a little hard to believe. How can Germany rank so high when simply questioning the Holocaust can get you thrown in jail?

I respect RSF, but their ranking needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. The US was in the top 10-15 just a few years ago, yet mysteriously has plummeted. Wonder why?

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by RegDunlap

I find that list a little hard to believe. How can Germany rank so high when simply questioning the Holocaust can get you thrown in jail?

Who's been thrown in jail in germany for simply questioning the holocast may i ask?

[RegDunlap]

Originally Posted by Tokis-Phoenix

Who's been thrown in jail in germany for simply questioning the holocast may i ask?

This guy, who is a scumbag by the way;




Sorry, can't post the link. Look up Ernst Zundel. He just got a 5 year sentence for it.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by RegDunlap

This guy, who is a scumbag by the way;
Sorry, can't post the link. Look up Ernst Zundel. He just got a 5 year sentence for it.

The guy did more than just speak out about the holocast, he was an extremist neo-nazi who sent hate mail to holocaust survivers ("Zündel was a vocal supporter of alleged Nazi war criminals living in Canada. During the trial of Imre Finta, Zündel was confronted outside the courthouse by a Holocaust survivor. Zündel told the survivor "Listen, yeah, we are gonna get you yet, don't you worry"") who apparently promoted hatred against jews on his website.



I don't think there's anything wrong about questioning certain things that happened in the holocast, however this guy wasn't just doing that, he was an extremist and nazi supporter who tried to rally people to his cause and incite racial hatred against the jews.

And besises, it was the canadians who first arrested him, not the germans, according to wikipedia.

If you disagree with germany ranking so high because it disrupts the freedom of speech from individuals like this neo-nazi guy, then i disagree with what you are saying.
I don't think germany was out of line jailing this guy, and if america jailed him, i don't think america would be out of line for doing so either.
I'm sure this Ernst guy was very intelligent and had many good points to make, but from what i have read so far his debate on the holocaust turned into a more illogical hatred of the jews and which i am sure i knew full well that what he was saying was very damaging and was boung to incite violence of some sort sooner or later, and that he could have got his points across in a lot better and more respectful and responsable ways, and so it was very irresponsable for him to do what he did knowing the suffering it could cause to other people etc.

[centrajapan]

The US was in the top 10-15 just a few years ago, yet mysteriously has plummeted. Wonder why?

The reason why US is ranked quite low is because

There were slightly fewer press freedom violations in the United States (48th) and blogger Josh Wolf was freed after 224 days in prison. But the detention of Al-Jazeera’s Sudanese cameraman, Sami Al-Haj, since 13 June 2002 at the military base of Guantanamo and the murder of Chauncey Bailey in Oakland in August mean the United States is still unable to join the lead group.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24025

USA does have a long track record of prohibitin people entry with "ideological concerns."

One of them was Nelson Mandela.

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/exclusion/passports_act/

[RegDunlap]

I dont care who he hates or what he says really. He should be given the chance to air his views, and publicly make himself look like an idiot. Sunlight is often the best disinfectant.

I personally can only condone restricting free speech when there is a direct and credible threat of violence involved. Merely hurting someones' feelings just doesnt cut it. There is, AFAIK, no freedom from being insulted.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by RegDunlap

I dont care who he hates or what he says really. He should be given the chance to air his views, and publicly make himself look like an idiot. Sunlight is often the best disinfectant.
I personally can only condone restricting free speech when there is a direct and credible threat of violence involved. Merely hurting someones' feelings just doesnt cut it. There is, AFAIK, no freedom from being insulted.

The thing is he did get a chance to speak his views to the world, and at the very least do you not find anything wrong with the fact that he sent threats to a holocaust surviver? He wasn't just "hurting people's feelings".

We can all say whatever we want, but that doesn't mean that we should expect everyone to accept what we say or for us not to take responsability for what we say.

If someone started going around trying to rally people to the ideals and cause of the ku klux clan, would you just go and say "well they can say whatever they want, freedom of speech and all that"? Would you just say "oh well they don't deserve to get punished until the point when they inevitably take things too far and someone gets physically hurt"?

With the way this german guy was going, it was inevitable that things were going to turn violent between some people at some point.
It wasn't like his aim was just trying to debate a controversial point, he was completely disregarding a lot of evidence and being extremely disrespectful to thousands of war survivers, he was rallying people for a nazi cause.

[Mycernius]

Originally Posted by RegDunlap

I find that list a little hard to believe. How can Germany rank so high when simply questioning the Holocaust can get you thrown in jail?
I respect RSF, but their ranking needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. The US was in the top 10-15 just a few years ago, yet mysteriously has plummeted. Wonder why?

Patriot act anyone?

[Derfel]

Well you see the holocaust that took place is a fact, anyone who questions it, and isn't a historian with facts and documents, is a complete idiot, an idiot who deserves a few years in a cell for his idiocy.

[nice gaijin]

If we jailed everyone who said something stupid, we'd all be in prison. Freedom of speech is not a selective right--it applies to both idiots and the people who call them idiots.

[Derfel]

True, but not everyone attempts to state his moronic views in public. We are free to think anything, but certain things better not be stated.

[nice gaijin]

Originally Posted by Derfel

...We are free to think anything, but certain things better not be stated.

And that is not freedom of speech.

[Derfel]

Haha if I wrote all of my thoughts here i'd get banned and you'd pretty much agree with me getting banned, now isn't that the same case? Or perhaps should I consider this as encouragement to write the stuff I keep deep inside down?

[nice gaijin]

This is not your website, so you are subject to the rules set forth by the site administrators. If you start your own site, you can write whatever you want, however tasteless or wrong, without fear of getting arrested for stating your opinions. If you get banned from a privately owned forum for spouting the same nonsense, it's not a violation of your rights.

[Derfel]

Originally Posted by nice gaijin

This is not your website, so you are subject to the rules set forth by the site administrators. If you start your own site, you can write whatever you want, however tasteless or wrong, without fear of getting arrested for stating your opinions. If you get banned from a privately owned forum for spouting the same nonsense, it's not a violation of your rights.

The constitution is the very same thing, go start your own country with your own constitution and you can do whatever you please.

[nice gaijin]

That's a pretty big leap in logic, and a rather unreasonable length to go to in order to do as you please.

[RegDunlap]

Originally Posted by Tokis-Phoenix

The thing is he did get a chance to speak his views to the world, and at the very least do you not find anything wrong with the fact that he sent threats to a holocaust surviver? He wasn't just "hurting people's feelings".

Doesnt matter if it was a holocaust survivor or not. If he made specific threats, which were directed at a specific person,that is a crime. If not, he can say what he wants.

We can all say whatever we want, but that doesn't mean that we should expect everyone to accept what we say or for us not to take responsability for what we say.

People dont have to accept it. That is THEIR freedom. As for"taking responsibiliity", see above re uttering threats.

If someone started going around trying to rally people to the ideals and cause of the ku klux clan, would you just go and say "well they can say whatever they want, freedom of speech and all that"? Would you just say "oh well they don't deserve to get punished until the point when they inevitably take things too far and someone gets physically hurt"?

Yes.

he was completely disregarding a lot of evidence and being extremely disrespectful to thousands of war survivers, he was rallying people for a nazi cause.

Which he should be allowed to do.

Distasteful and controversial speech needs protecting the most.

[tokapi]

Originally Posted by nice gaijin

And that is not freedom of speech.

In America,it doesn't extend to Communists or sympathizers propagate Marxism ideology agenda.

[nice gaijin]

Originally Posted by tokapi

In America,it doesn't extend to Communists or sympathizers propagate Marxism ideology agenda.

Are you referring to the Cold War era, or something more contemporary?

[Mycernius]

Probably to the McCarthy trials and communtist witch hunts.
As for Germany, anyone promoting its Nazi past, the salute, propaganda, is illegal in Germany. It is the countries way of dealing with its past. There are enough threads on the forum as a whole with regards to the Japanese not facing up to its actions in WW2. I'm sure you would feel just as hot-tempered if the Germans treated its Nazi past with a shrine to its war dead from the SS.
Ther is no true freedom of speech anywhere in the world. What you say will annoy someone and if they are powerful enough they will try their best to censor it. One example is the press itself. say anything against the media and it will not get very much publicity and you will find your views censored in the media. The likes of Rupert Murdoch have quite a bit of power when it comes to shaping the views of the populace.

[Derfel]

Absolute freedom of speech would only heat things up and lead to anarchy. We'd have millions of debates everywhere on TV, strikes all around, extremist movements under every bloody rock. If you want to live in that kind of country I can understand why you promote absolute freedom of speech.

[RegDunlap]

Originally Posted by Derfel

Absolute freedom of speech would only heat things up and lead to anarchy. We'd have millions of debates everywhere on TV, strikes all around, extremist movements under every bloody rock. If you want to live in that kind of country I can understand why you promote absolute freedom of speech.

I dont recall anyone promoting "absolute" freedom of speech. You are making a straw man argument, and a poor one at that. In any case, you have no proof that any of what you speculate would actually happen.

Mycernius said;

As for Germany, anyone promoting its Nazi past, the salute, propaganda, is illegal in Germany. It is the countries way of dealing with its past. There are enough threads on the forum as a whole with regards to the Japanese not facing up to its actions in WW2. I'm sure you would feel just as hot-tempered if the Germans treated its Nazi past with a shrine to its war dead from the SS.

60 plus years later, it is a pretty sh!tty way to deal with the past. By driving neonazis underground, you give them cachet and "cool" factors that exposing them in public would not do.

A government facing up to its past has nothing to do with restricting the speech of its citizens. They are different issues.

[Derfel]

Originally Posted by RegDunlap

you have no proof that any of what you speculate would actually happen.

Don't deny the obvious please. Or perhaps you have one of those huge A armbands?

[RegDunlap]

Originally Posted by Derfel

Don't deny the obvious please. Or perhaps you have one of those huge A armbands?

It's hard to deny what has not been proven or tested. However, YOU are the one who made the claim, so you are the one who should provide some evidence to support it.

Open and public debate of controversial issues is the best for all concerned. Once some ideas are labeled as too controversial or taboo, the door is open for abuse.

What do you mean by an "A armband"? You lost me there.