September 11th true or false?

[centrajapan]

I am a big fan of Alex Jones and the movie Zeitgeist. It has been 6 years since the tragedy in New York yet the conspiracy theories does not seem to go away. Quite contrary more and more people are believing that the US government is hiding and covering up vital information from the pulic.

There have been various internet web pages, documentaries and books on this issue. The Japanese press TV Asahi has also picked up on this and done a report on it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...94269740126319

While steel does not melt before it reaches 2000 degrees and fire caused by jet fuel engine does not get more than 1000 degrees. So that in itself I find strange. How can steel melt? But then there was an another building WTC7 which also collapsed yet did not get hit by an airplane.

Then there is the Pentagon. The hole in the Pentagon which is supposed to be hit by an airplane yet the hole is much smaller.

Then there is PNAC. Where it says that a Pearl Harbour event will trigger a new war.

The people in the studio does not buy the conspiracy theory but then added that he understand that some people believe it.

This is Paul Thompson's time line.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/t...e_911_timeline

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...26015068091009

[Goldiegirl]

of course it's true. Who cares about conspiracies....the people who died were real and true nothing changes that fact!

[centrajapan]

Thats not the point. Do you think the US government is telling the truth?

Alex Jones on CNN

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...96278994633306

[Doc]

I believe the simple scientific and common sense fact that heat and fuel from two 747s melts metal causing the two towers to drop, over a cruse missile hitting them. The more you bring this crap up, the more it becomes pigeoned holed and faulty. Furthermore, with your last comment on the deaths of over 3,000 people you are borderline on causing trouble. I would advise you to watch your tongue when dealing with sensitive issues such as this one.

[sabro]

Conspiracy theories usually fall apart and something, this big and this complicated could never actually be pulled off: Achem's Razor- the simplest explanation tends to be the best... and when you see hoof prints, look for horses, not zebras... (Unless you are some where where zebras are common.)

[Derfel]

Originally Posted by sabro

Conspiracy theories usually fall apart and something, this big and this complicated could never actually be pulled off: Achem's Razor- the simplest explanation tends to be the best... and when you see hoof prints, look for horses, not zebras... (Unless you are some where where zebras are common.)

Normally that is true, but people who just want to have an excuse for hating the US only need some silly proof, they don't give a damn whether they are poor ones, or proven false.

[centrajapan]

WTC 7 did not get hit by an airplane. Yet it collapsed. You could turn it around and say if you really cared about USA you would want to find out the truth.

To be honest. When 3 steel framed building collapses on the same day due to fire that is the conspiracy theory. Because no steel framed building has ever collapsed due to fire before simply because fire does not get hot enough for steel to melt.

I can give 1 2 the benefit of the doubt but when the third collapses without getting hit by an airplane?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...73116607499063

THe official report says the reason why it fell was due to fire yet you see hardly any fire on the building.

Here is the owner of WTC 7 who says on TV to pull the building. We could start to ponder what he measn by pull it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...32340306101329

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

centrajapan,

You are hurting all the families of those who lost their lives that tragic 11th of September.
No American government would ever plan to kill their own citizens and then blaming the Arabs for this act. It was a real tragedy and there were thousands of eyewitnesses.

[Derfel]

Ok, so, you're saying that it was planned by the government, thats cool, in that case, who the hell volunteered for the suicide plane attack? Americans? No bloody way, it wasn't done by Americans. Say, steel doesn't melt from flames, in that case at least a miracle or an explosion would have been necessary. Obviously the government is not capable of working miracles, and a serious explosion, not one from simply the entering oxygen would have been too damn obvious. So what? The government used David Copperfield to take down the building? Or sent a bunch of chaps to circle around it chanting stuff until it collapses?
That simply can't be, it would be too big scale, too hard.

[centrajapan]

No one got killed in WTC 7. All the people were evacuated. WTC 7 collapsed much later on the same day. All I'm saying is that this building. A 47 story building which is a very tall building collapsed without getting hit by an airplane. The official report says it collapsed due to fire yet I am saying no steel framed building has ever collapsed due to fire before. Then the owner of WTC 7 says " we pulled it"

If you look at the video of when the building collapses it looks to me like a controlled demolishion.

I am recommending people to start to think a little critical.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hello Derfel,

Sorry, you misunderstand me. Doesn't matter neither of us is English speaking.

I mean to say that American governments were not planning such tragedy.
Whatever proof some people may think they have, that is one thing I will never belief.
So we are saying the same thing, 9/11 was not done by Americans or their government. Okay?

[centrajapan]

mean to say that American governments were not planning such tragedy.

The US government has fabricated lies to enter wars before though. It did in the Vietnam war. Tonkin Gulf incident in Vietnam. Where the US government said US Navy ships were attacked by North Vietnamese troops but this has been proven to be false.

There is an another incident. During the 6 day war. Israel attacked an American ship killing American millitary personell. While this is a little different. Some say it was an honest mistake yet some say it wasn't.

So we are saying the same thing, 9/11 was not done by Americans or their government. Okay?

Before you come with that conclusion. You should study each incident.

[Derfel]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth van Kampen

Hello Derfel,
Sorry, you misunderstand me. Doesn't matter neither of us is English speaking.
I mean to say that American governments were not planning such tragedy.
Whatever proof some people may think they have, that is one thing I will never belief.
So we are saying the same thing, 9/11 was not done by Americans or their government. Okay?

Umm, you misunderstood me, I agree with you that the government did nothing that nasty.

[scorpion da black]

arabs did do that job of blowing the planes to the WTC
i can believe that because no other people are brave enough to die for a cause ( not that i am pro that act...or whether it is false or not ) just saying..Americans don't have the guts to do a suicide act..maybe the Japanese kamikaze or Soviet honer guard ...but not Americans to their home land ..why would they??

but what i can argue is that "" yes the American government did plan for everything ""
it is proved that members of the CIA trained Qaeda jihadists and they were in continuous contact ever since the afghan war against the soviet union ...
in an indirect way, the CIA members willing to start the war made way for the terrorists and even financed them to cause all this havoc...not even this, the terrorists even rehearsed for this under CIA supervision.
it is not difficult to believe so hence the mighty (Qaeda) enemy of the US is in a matter of fact an American creation...
lets say this "the qaeda did more bad to the Islamic world than good"
they could be fools on a mission being fooled by their own religion to do the desires of their enemy..
I heard many times that the members of the Qaeda are brain washed to do what they do...that is true..but who brain washes them..and here the American intelligence come to picture ...

it is all logical...and that WTC 7 is an awesome strengthener to my hypothesis

[Goldiegirl]

Americans have the guts to face there enemies not use their youth to blow themselves up and kill innocent people. If you want to see courage think of the Americans who overtook there captors and forced their jet down in a field...That took real courage! The passengers of United flight 93 showed what honor and courage truly are....

[karlyboo]

I've never yet heard a convincing theory about 9/11 that isn't full of half-truths and general rubbish which has been repeated so many times it's accepted as fact. The whole business about melting points etc. has been conclusively debunked several times. Try http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...w/1227842.html this for a first hit off of google.

So we return to it being a bunch of lunatics who hijacked a plane and caused many, many innocent deaths. Personally, I theorise that humans (in general) have a hard time understanding such large and difficult things so it's a lot easier to start chalking it up to conspiracies to 'explain' it all and make it more rational.

The passengers of United flight 93 showed what honor and courage truly are....

Quoted for truth.

[scorpion da black]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

Americans have the guts to face there enemies not use their youth to blow themselves up and kill innocent people. If you want to see courage think of the Americans who overtook there captors and forced their jet down in a field...That took real courage!

misunderstood again

what i meant was..the Americans will not carry out such mission on foreign land for some cause! while other people from other societies may have that in them.

when there is a cause worth dying for, Americans would be ready to die..for example defending a land lets say.....but hurting their own people to start their crusades...i doubt some twisted American will have the guts to do that.

the Palestinians for example wouldn't do such mission ..but they would suicide to fight back the Israeli occupation ...
the Lebanese did that as well when the Israelis occupied their land...
but neither Lebanese or Palestinians would carry out 11 September's mission on other Lebanese or Palestinians...

maybe I am wrong..maybe there is Americans who are ready to this mission just like Iraqi terrorists blow their own people just to get two or three Americans standing by the crowd

[Goldiegirl]

Suicide is considered a sign of weakness and cowardly act, no matter what the cause. You fight to win and win to fight again another day.

[scorpion da black]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

Suicide is considered a sign of weakness and cowardly act, no matter what the cause. You fight to win and win to fight again another day.

not rue not true...

when some one is fighting a mightier enemy with more advanced weapons and more in number the only left option is a devastating blow to their bases...a human cruise missile ..a human time bomb..a powerful weapon using primal weapons compared to modern weapons...
the Lebanese did that to fight the Israelis off their lands ..what you don't get is that we fought a country that bombed us with bombs that destroyed a city block each....and yet despite the huge difference between their technology and ours they were kicked out off our country. we consider those suicide bombers ( who attack armed men in uniform not civilians ) as heroes..they are celebrated brave martyrs...
when we have cruise missiles and continent crossing bombs we wouldn't have to use suicide bombers to win a war.

[centrajapan]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...ml?page=5#wtc7

As for WTC7 and the picture.

It states that the building collapsed due to fire and as a side effect of WTC 1&2 collapsing. But if you look at the picture from that web site. How come the other buildings around WT7 did not collapse but only WTC7? ANother fact that one has to think about is if no steel frame building has ever collapsed due to fire how come 3 collapsed on the same day and 1 collapsed without getting hit by an airplane.

If you look at the way it collapsed it does look like a controlled demolishion. Why does not that web site show a video when WTC7 collapsed? The FEMA report is not only full of half truths it just does not explain very well at all. It's not logical.

Then there is the Pentagon. US version.

Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan?
A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen

But the hole is rather small. It is very small. If an airplane crashed into the Pentagon you have to remember that the airplane crashed into the Pentagon 5 meters or so above ground level. Thats quite a pilot stunt in itself. Before crashing into Pentagon it took a 270 degrees turn and then crashed into Pentagon and the hole it made in the Pentagon is much smaller than a commercial airliner.

If it is a commercial airliner then surely the Pentagon could have released a video release making sure to public that it was a commercial airliner. It hasnt. Surely one of the most secured buildings on the planet can come up with better evidence than this.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...42.html?page=6

This picture here is not very convincing.

Suicide is considered a sign of weakness and cowardly act, no matter what the cause. You fight to win and win to fight again another day.

This is off topic. Start a new thread about the brave Americans some place else. But I will asnwer this but this has nothing to do with this thread. Martyr operations are not concidered suicide. It is not coward to sacrifice your life for a cause you believe in.

[karlyboo]

To throw my 4 yen in to the (side) debate-

A soldier gives his body as a weapon of the war, to quote Donovan, so I personally see no problem with volunteer suicide attacks against legitimate military targets. If people want to volunteer to die to help their side win, that's sort of part of being a soldier imo. You're expected to fight (and die if necessary) to serve your nation.

That said I would like to clarify that opinion comes against the backdrop of my considering war a pointless and colossal waste of human life at the best of times and something which should have been consigned to history long ago, along with most forms of combat (including suicide attacks), but governments will keep starting arguments and expecting their respective peoples to go out and fight on their behalf...

My apologies for continuing the off-topic thread.

[Goldiegirl]

it's true for Americans...what's acceptable for other cultures I can't say...I am just basing my opinions on what I know. Even Timothy McVeigh didn't kill himself...anyway this is all off topic. 9/11 is very true no matter who did what, innocent people were killed and their families still suffer...that's the real truth.

[scorpion da black]

thank you karlyboo san for explaining my point

and centrajapan san... i didn't get off topic, i just explained my opinion...you can read that again in post 14!

[Derfel]

If cowardice was a substance, suicide would be made of it.
Suicide bombers are just chaps who want to win at all costs, even if they don't live to reap it all.
Bravery ain't what they show in boring mass produced films, all the honour, chivalry, sure there's plenty of that too, but in truth, those are brave who want to win, someone dead is rotting, that is closer to failing than winning, actually its 180 degree different.
Terror can't win wars, its not enough to decrease a country's military power, in fact, its like a fly messing about.
America, regardless of how many underhanded tricks it does, is a country for the sake of its peoples' welfare, whereas countries that train and contain suicide terrorist forces are just mad dogs, loose blowing themselves up, blowing others up, and generally blowing about just for the hell of it, simply cause some rabid madman said so.
Many countries been in thicker mess throughout the centuries, but they cut through it somehow, not by spreading hell and tickets to heaven, but by economy.
Its like kicking the teacher that slapped you for setting your books on fire during class.
Honestly, all this propaganda I see about America being wrong and morally unstable... what the hell? How is that the case?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...%29_per_capita
Do you think this reflects how ethical a country is? Hell no, it reflects how well its citizens worked, and not how bloody well they can blow themselves up and become mincemeat, sacred bloody glorious mincemeat sorry.
Bravery is to question stupidity when you're surrounded by it, and not surrounding your ribs by an explosive belt. I see nothing brave there.
We're not in the age of Pyrrhic victories, fact is, we never were.
Why would anyone want to die? What good does it bring?
America wouldn't have blown up the WTC, there are easier methods to create a casus belli. They could have simply organized a wave of terrorist attacks, small scale ones, I say it would have been a better excuse for war.
Im asking, are we back in the medieval era? Just because you found some random fact, you're labeling America guilty. The inquisitorial law procedures are outta the fashion for a couple of years now. If you can't prove something hundred percent don't go around shooting into the air saying: "Heck, I can't prove this, but knowing how dirty and immoral Americans are, they're probably red handed.!"
This theory is feeble, darn feeble.
Americans live a comfortable life, they can value it. Now lets count how many Americans this plan requires... well at least several hundred. You think at least one of the head honchos wouldn't question the madness?
No way, in this age we're living in, that kind of thing is rather difficult. It would require the cooperation of aliens, ghosts, gods (plural cause only one wouldn't be sufficient for this plan), one million genius autist kids lined up, and probably poor dead Bruce Lee.

[scorpion da black]

Derfel my rply to you in these posts..post 19...then 14

""you sure should read more"" bro