Dalailama; Vegetarian? Yes or No?

[magevampjoe]

I have created this thread for people to discuss the Dalailama case; is he a vegetarian or not. People were clogging up the vegetarian yes or no topic so this is here for them.

Please use this topic to debate the dalailama case.

Thanks,
magevampjoe

[nice gaijin]

I thought he was vegetarian for a brief time, but eventually returned to an omnivorous diet. I don't see the point of arguing this, could you explain the merit of debating this topic? Is this a "depends on your definition of vegetarian" thing, or is the accuracy of the reports of his diet in question?

[centrajapan]

I said he was not a vegeterian then Chi got angry for me stating that. No big deal. He is still a great man.

She demanded that he was a vegeterian.

[magevampjoe]

I made this topic because on the occasion where people (other than myself) attempted to get back on topic people were arguing. No merits for debating, but if they want to debate it they can come here, rather than using the other topic. Delete this topic if you want to. I don't really care, but topic-clogging is annoying.

[Chi65]

See the exact links and posts on the veggie-threads and how also vegetarians describe themselves. Thats the easiest way. Its all said there.

And for me he can also do as he likes or needs, by the way.

[kairu]

Doesn't he try to stay vegetarian except when traveling? It makes sense that he wouldn't reject the food offered by his hosts, considering his position. Still, his kitchen is completely vegetarian.

So, yes he is at home, but no he isn't overall.

Right?

[Goldiegirl]

Exactly kairu...his web site says his kitchen is vegetarian at home. When he is away from home he can't always be vegetarian. Too, when at home he doesn't eat dinner.

[Chi65]

Anyhow, more yes than no does not make it a general no, and on most places outside Dharamsala, that he visits, they do have vegetarian kitchen, in workshops, centers etc.

[Goldiegirl]

Well, I think the Dali Lama and I are alike in the food way. I eat vegetarian at home, but in Japan it's very hard to find all vegetarian food. There is usually fish broth or pork/chicken broth in food/noodles etc. So, I deal with the chicken broth, fish is out. I think the Dali Lama has to be flexible....but he is mainly vegetarian and if he had his way he would be so outside of his home if possible.

[centrajapan]

Most Tibetan monks are not vegeterians. In Tibetan culture there is not much of a vegeterian culture. Dalailama first came in touch with vegeterianism after being exciled to India. He became sick and his doctors told him to eat meat.

Most Asian cultures be it Chinese, Korean, Mongolian, Japanese, Tibetan, do not have much of a vegetrian culture like India.

[Mars Man]

First of all let me thank you, megavampjoe san, for setting up this poll--the reasons for such being explained in the OP. (as I looked at the other thread last night (Jn time) I had decided to wait until this morning to move in...depending on how the volleying would have gone--now I don't need to)

I will vote for the 'I don't know'...because, honestly, I do not. I think that Revenant can tell us more about this, maybe, as I think he follows up on the Dali Lama somewhat.

I though, although, that original Buddhism was more about the 'middle path' type thing wherein 'moderation' was the key. Hinduism, from which it had basically split paths with, was very vegetarian, and I had just kind of taken Buddism to say that to also open the path for eating some meat. (I mean that's what happened to Sikhism, the combination of Hinduism and Islam, they went to eating meat)

[Goldiegirl]

I don't know anything about the religious aspect of what his diet is, but I know what his website said. I posted that verbatim in the other thread on vegetarianism. I agree though that people who live in cold climates, like Tibet, Siberia, Alaska (Inuits) aren't vegetarian; they can't. They would die, there's not enough plant life and many are nomadic tribes so shipping in veggies is not an option. I know that reindeer and even horses are common foods in those areas.

[Chi65]

Its right in general though, that it does not necesarily imply vegetarian diets over there, also in Buddhism traditionally. Therfor they had and still have some people to kill the animals, but they were considered to be a kind of unclean, outcastes. It had to do with the image, that killing animals would be a bad thing, and thus cause bad karma, yet they ate their meats. One could say, its a kind of double thinking, but thats the way it was and most probably still is.
No wonder, that some are having problems with this. But in regards to their Karma-thinkings it had a clear place.
I suppose, that the avoidance of animal meat (whenever possible) by most monks and others then happened, because they thought it over more properly.
And Golditerm about what you get served there, its vegetarian.egirl, yes, you are like him in terms of Vegetarianism, yet you are a Vegetarian, like so many that I know, including my own daughter (can't be closer thus and therefor has my full understanding) who have similar problems.
It would reduce the whole amount of vegetarians to almost(!) 0, would it not be seen this way.
And right, the reasons for being one has many aspects, not just the beliefs.
I have no idea, if there ever has been a research about the last aspect, but it might be interesting!
Beside this, the Dalai Lama is a head or one of the heads in at least one major vegetarian society, as I found few days ago, but I don't know, if I can find this link again.
Just to add to the picture.
I still say, his own surroundings and close networks are not lyers at all, especially not tibetan monks and higher ranks there (which is the kind of organisation, that we have here, its directly related). If one blames them, one blames the Dalai Lama as well(!).
They even made a vow about speaking the truth, which should also be known.

By the way, I know, that in Korea and China I very well was confronted with and invited to several (mostly buddhist) monasteries during my researches, and I know that monk food is a stable term, for what they serve in the monasteries, and its strictly vegetarian. No exception found so far.

[made of stone]

Is the Dalailama a vegetarian?

No he isn't, because he eats meat and consumes other animal products.

[Chi65]

Originally Posted by made of stone

No he isn't, because he eats meat and consumes other animal products.

Maybe you read the whole posts first?. . .

[made of stone]

I did Chi san, but for me the definition is clear: someone who eats meat (however occasionally) is not a vegetarian. One could say that he 'tries to follow a vegetarian diet wherever possible', but that is absolutely not the same thing.

I also think it's telling that the Dalai Lama himself doesn't claim to be a vegetarian.

This whole argument is about a shade of grey, imho, and I don't see how anyone can argue it's pure black (although granted it may be a very dark shade of grey, it's still not black!!)

mos

[Chi65]

See this from here and read the whole thing over again, you missed many points:

http://www.godsdirectcontact.org/eng/news/160/vg6.htm

Dalai Lama

On April 5, 2005, the Dalai Lama made the following statement before an assembly of Tibetan leaders: “Lately I have turned to a vegetarian diet. Today’s youth, particularly the ones who have come from Tibet and have a refugee status must inculcate these principles for their own development and to have peace of mind. The message from mahakaruna [Sanskrit: ‘great compassion’] has clearly asked us to follow and preach love and compassion for all living beings.” The Dalai Lama’s noble action is an inspiration to people around the world and is especially admirable because he changed his diet at the age of seventy. Actually, he had wished to be vegetarian from an early age but was hindered by the curious beliefs of his personal physicians.

Nowadays, however, Tibetan doctors increasingly recognize the benefits of vegetarianism, including Dr. Tenzin Tsephal, Director of Tibetan Medicine in one of the main Tibetan expatriate settlements, who states, “It is not necessary for [the Dalai Lama] to eat meat. I would never prescribe someone to start eating meat again. The Tibetan doctors who do so are a bit old-fashioned and aren’t aware [of] or open to the alternatives to eating meat. I think all Tibetans can and should stop eating meat.”

etc.etc.

[Chi65]

Originally Posted by made of stone

I did Chi san, but for me the definition is clear: someone who eats meat (however occasionally) is not a vegetarian. One could say that he 'tries to follow a vegetarian diet wherever possible', but that is absolutely not the same thing.

I also think it's telling that the Dalai Lama himself doesn't claim to be a vegetarian.

This whole argument is about a shade of grey, imho, and I don't see how anyone can argue it's pure black (although granted it may be a very dark shade of grey, it's still not black!!)

mos

He does and the shade is much more towards vegetarian, as explained before. Thus the opposite is true.
What you are saying is no more and no less than there are almost no vegetarians then.
Its not white either in that case, as a no would imply, in fact much closer to your black. No one argued its pure black though. I don't know, where you got that from.

[made of stone]

Originally Posted by Chi65

He does and the shade is much more towards vegetarian, as explained before. Thus the opposite is true.

I understand and agree - he follows a meat-free diet more than he follows a meat eating one. But that does not follow the definition of a 'vegetarian'.

Originally Posted by Chi65

What you are saying is no more and no less than there are almost no vegetarians then.

Not at all - there are millions of vegetarians in the world - people who never eat meat or fish or consume animal products.

As difficult as it is, I have two friends who have managed to maintain that even in Japan for over five years - they truly are vegetarians.

Its not white either in that case, as a no would imply, in fact much closer to your black. No one argued its pure black though. I don't know, where you got that from.

I got that from the basic definition of a vegetarian from any dictionary - that a vegetarian does not eat meat!

Chi san, I quite agree about the white/black etc, and I think I said that. I'm sure on the scale I defined the Dalai Lama is almost black. But I do believe that unless he's at the extreme of the scale (never eats meat) then he's not a vegetarian.

I don't really understand where the debate lies here - the Dalai Lama himself doesn't claim to be a vegetarian. He can't, imho, because although he may prefer to eat mostly vegetarian food, he does eat meat.


made of (Sarapva san please help me here!!)

[Chi65]

But to add something about Buddhism and the like and Vegetarians or not and why, a quite interesting page from Wikipedia here (although I do not trust wiki entirely from experience ):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism

As written many times here and somehwere else, a mostly vegetarian, particularly if wanting to, which is the case here, is a vegetarian in relation to a no vegetarian, thus definitely not a no. If you so wish, you can fairly say, "mostly" a veggie, or you can say, you yourself have such extreme scales, opinions, but for sure not no in objective and general sense.
As much as a smoker or drinker is a smoker or drinker, even when occasionally not.
(Please forgive me, if you feel offended, thats not my aim)

And I have my doubts, that there are many left, if you don't give them that. I know many myself in a long life, plus upcoming troubles during travellings, incl. my on daughter*, who is as strict as can be, as said before and in the Vegetarian thread.
* in relation to her, I am clearly an occasional, thus non veggie.

[Tsuyoiko]

I guess this comes down to where you draw the line between vegetarian and not. I class myself vegetarian, but maybe some people would disagree. I eat dairy and eggs, drink wine and wear leather shoes. Ideally I wouldn't eat or use anything that exploited animals, but there has to be a balance for me between doing my best and still maintaining some quality of life. I have tried to be vegan and wear plastic shoes but it made me so miserable I just decided to go as far as makes me comfortable.

I think the dalai lama's motivation is like that, except he's putting other people's convenience before his own principles. So I would class him as a vegetarian.

[Sarapva]

Originally Posted by made of stone

I understand and agree - he follows a meat-free diet more than he follows a meat eating one. But that does not follow the definition of a 'vegetarian'.

made of (Sarapva san please help me here!!)

I wasn't going to post on this thread, but since my help has been requested, I'll say what I think about it! I think this is just a question of definition - saying a person is "a vegetarian" means they don't eat any meat. But if they eat meat sometimes, it's probably more accurate to say they "follow a mostly vegetarian diet".

Since vegetarianism is relatively new to the western world (I think), this definition hasn't really been agreed on yet. Some people think that if a person eats fish but not meat they're vegetarian. I prefer to think that a person is "a vegetarian" if they don't eat any meat or fish (me), and "vegan" if they eat no meat, fish, dairy or eggs (me most of the time). If people ask me if I'm vegan I say that I'm not strictly vegan because I'll eat things with eggs in sometimes. But I can say I'm "vegetarian" because I don't (knowingly) eat any meat or fish.

This is another aspect: I read in a book about vegetarianism that it's going to an extreme to say, if a person accidentally eats a small piece of meat or fish (that might have accidentally got on their plate along with other food), that they're not vegetarian because they did consume some meat. I think I have actually eaten small pieces of meat here and there without meaning to, but I don't think this means that I'm not a vegetarian. A person could drive himself crazy being so obsessive about every crumb of food.

Anyway, why is it important whether the Dalai Lama is vegetarian or not? I don't see what all the fuss is about.

[Eponine]

I voted don't care...with respect i fail to see how this counts as a topic for "serious discussion"!

[Sarapva]

I hope I haven't discouraged anyone from posting on this topic - I was just half-serious in my last post. It's interesting to know what the Dalai Lama does eat, as he's a leader in human and animal rights.

I think maybe his position is to not be rigidly either way - to not eat meat as a rule, but to be flexible enough to eat it if it's offered(?). (Thereby not fitting nicely into any category we could put him in?!)

[Chi65]

Anyway, why is it important whether the Dalai Lama is vegetarian or not? I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Sarapva, just see who opened that thread, the reason is simple, if you remember his other posts. . .

Fanatics and fundamentalists. . .

But the Dalai Lama is none, and thus he is a pretty bad example to be pinned down on narrow limits as an example to serve s.o.'s racism paranoia and the like.

It only shows, how easily someone can end up in the opposite corner via manipulations.

Stay openminded, people, see it from all sides and don't let that happen.
We can all learn.