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#1 |
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Veni, vidi... vicodin?
![]() Join Date: Jun 4, 2006
Location: Busan, S. Korea
Age: 31
Posts: 495
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Underwater Archaeology and the Mongol Invasion
Recently, I read an old article from Naval History (June 2003), investigating the historicity of the "divine wind" that wrecked the Mongol fleet and spared the Japanese from a devastating invasion. The article plumbed into the historiographical nature of the invasion accounts, with some interesting results.
Firstly, the tale of the kamikaze decisively destroying the Mongol fleet has been demonstrated to be of Meiji manufacture. While a storm played a role in sparing the Japanese, other factors were instrumental in the defense of the Japanese islands. The typhoon story was propaganda that gained strength during the Meiji and subsequent Taisho eras. The Sino-Japanese War and Russo-Japanese War both helped to strengthen the narrative of the divinely summoned storm, propaganda that assured the Japanese people that the gods themselves would oppose an invasion of Japan. Secondly, while the storm played an effective role in halting the Mongol assault, a number of other factors aided the Japanese. The Mongol's inability to coordinate a successful offensive and gain a secure foothold on Kyushu played a vital role. The Japanese had prepared for the invasion, and utilized the terrain to great advantage. A 25-mile wall, encircling Hakata Bay, fortified the Mongols' primary landing-zone against incursion, making an amphibious assault extremely difficult. Although the Japanese had constructed a minor navy, it did little more than harass and annoy the Mongol ships, which had fastened their ships together into massive floating fortresses against Japanese assault. It was this action, however, that proved to cripple the Mongol fleet during the typhoon.
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Ὦ ̃ῖ', ἀέɃɃÃǃ ȃÃǃʃ̓ί̓ς ὅу ῇ ȃίʃÃƃ, уῖς ȃί˃փ ῥήʃЃ ÃǃόʃÃ˃̓. |
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#2 |
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Banned
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as far as i know, Song Dynasty was developed well though the fighting was weak.
after that ,Yuan Dynasty advanced Goryeo,korea. Goryeo king surrendered immediately. He started hunting the Domestic anti-Mongolian power. anti-mongolian power came to ask for helping in Japan. since Battle of Baekgang, Japan never trusted korea they were repressed by Goryeo king at last The rule organization of Mongolia was set up in Korea The hostages who were the traditional culture of the peninsula was sent to Mongolia. it was unwilling for Goryeo to be a vassal state of Yuan Dynasty because they were not sino-center country The prince of the hostage who wanted to return to korea earnestly appealed for the loyalty to Mongolia. he said " Everything is done by our own expense if said to attack Japan. Military forces and the ship procure it for myself. " they flattered and wore Mongolian clothes and the hairstyle. Btw, in chosun dynasty,It offered a bribe to the Ming envoy , and ancient manners were deleted from document under the compilation for them for the reasons of barbarous ,and it was not sino traditon and custom. They denyed an own tradition. anyway,The king of the hostage to whom the homecoming was permitted was ordered the Japan expedition according to the promise with a Mongolian emperor though I dont know Mongol's costume play was popular or sympathized. A promised implementation was urged on them. There were neither a naval engineering nor the money in Korea. funny thing is korean always say "To break easy on purpose, the South Korean made the ship that Mongol took. then japan was saved " it is typical Conversion in brain only 1% was mongolian, rest of them were the korean and chinese at Japan expedition The 1st Japan expedition started. Yuan and the korea as manservant defeated the outpost force in Tsushima and Iki. they landed kyusyu..
They could not invade the interior from the coastline though it fights against the Japanese army that waited in the Kyushu coast because a Japan stubbornly resisted. When the night comes, a Japan started retreating. The purpose is to enter the position in the firm water castle scheduled beforehand, and to defend Dazaifu. The Japanese army voluminous corps of reinforcement increased and crossed Chikugo river and began going north. yuan anf korean army started the disadvantage and the becoming it retreat then ,It was a raid of the storm there. ... It became straggler hunting for Japan. 2nd Japan Expedition They smoothly defeated the outpost force in Tsushima and Iki this time, too They show up in the Kyushu northern part in the beginning of June. However, the coastline region in the Kyushu northern part turned into the fortified zone, and they could not land this time. It was repulsed in every case easily though they tried landing many times. Yuan martial commander was almost killed in shiga island Moreover, they run away to the sea. the Japanese sumurais made a night attack when they ran away to the sea...... Promised south Song army did not come at all. Then, they decided to run away to Iki island. The attack of a Japanese army continued though they ran away to Iki. Food was lacked because they were tossed in the sea for two months, and the epidemic spread in the shipboard because of the uncleanliness and starvation. 3000 soldiers die without fighting...... It was not possible to return to home because of Khubilai's order ![]() They waited for south Song army while enduring an obstinate pursuit of hungry and the Japanese attack. 100,000 south song army came at last and 40,000 korean remnants of a defeated army + Song army started general attack to Japan however ,They failed though they landed from Nagasaki. Again, it is a standby on the ship. then , The typhoon came. they tried to home. and Japan chased them to Tsushima they were captured at last.After it disarmed, south Song ppl were released, and the ship was given . they repatriated to the own country. However , all korean and mongolian were executed.......... btw since Battle of Baekgang, Japan never trusted korea............ this story is so interesting. 1272年 日本侵略を提言 [10] 高麗に帰国[11] 1273年 三別抄の乱を元の力で鎮圧 http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BF%...83%88%E7%8E%8B
Last edited by caster51; Jun 3, 2008 at 15:36. |
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#3 |
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Veni, vidi... vicodin?
![]() Join Date: Jun 4, 2006
Location: Busan, S. Korea
Age: 31
Posts: 495
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Originally Posted by caster51
The 100,000-man force is probably an exaggeration. The logistics would have made such an invasion almost impossible to effectively stage. Xerxes supposedly invaded Greece with that many men during the Thermopylae-Salamis campaign (480s BC). This is common before Thucydides--most battle records are grossly exaggerated.
The Southern Song navy was captured and incorporated into Kublai Khan's expeditionary force. I've read a little about the Battle of Hakata Bay and it is most fascinating. What is also interesting is how the victorious repulsion helped to cement Hojo pre-eminence as the regents for the Kamakura Bakufu. Most of the invading prisoners were massacred, and most of those were not Mongols (they only formed about 1% of the force, primarily the officer corps), while the remainder were N. Chinese and Koreans. Some people complain that the beheadings of prisoners was cruel and unnecessary. Those people don't study pre-modern war that often. Besides, it served as a mighty deterrent against possible future aggression. |
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#4 |
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Banned
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Location: japan
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Jyoryu-ji, fujisawa,kanagawa. at that time, five mongolians came to Japan to bring Khubilai's massage. however, they were executed.. This temple holds a service of them..... Enkakuji,kamakura
there are many temples like these in japan. mongolian sumo wrestler at Jyoryuji |
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#5 |
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Banned
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and Goryeo history document, I think it is not an exaggeration... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan 元史日本伝 http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-...ensi_1281.html 七日、日本人来り戦い、尽く死し、余の二、三万はそのために虜去せらる。九日、八角島に至り、尽く蒙古・高麗・漢人を殺し、新附軍は唐人たりといい、殺さずしてこれを奴となす。 □[門に昌]が輩はこれなり」と。けだし行省の官、事を議して相下らず。故に皆軍を棄てて帰る。これを久しくして莫青と 呉万五とまた逃れ還る。十万の衆、還るを得たる者三人のみ。 高麗史日本伝 http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-...i_01_1266.html in Japanese history text book, it is never written as an invasion. South Korea is pretending as the victim.... Last edited by caster51; Jun 5, 2008 at 13:24. |
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#6 |
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Banned
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Mongol troops finally conquered Southern Song Dynasty ( remaining southern part of China > south of Huai River after Chinese lost in the North ) in 1279.Second invasion of Japan came in 1281,Han-Chinese generals 范文虎 & 李庭 ( plus others ) led an army of 100,000 from Yangtze region. 1279年元軍征服南宋之後,於1281年春發動了對日本的第二次入侵。元軍的這次入侵規模大於第一次,其 中由范文虎、李庭等人率領的江南軍就有十余萬人 Source: http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...&variant=zh-hk |
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#7 |
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Banned
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#8 |
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Veni, vidi... vicodin?
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Originally Posted by tokapi
Originally Posted by caster51
If the sources did not exaggerate this, then I'm a monkey's uncle.
The whole of the Roman Empire at it's height (Antonine Dynasty) had no more than 1/4 million men under arms (250,000) throughout the entire empire. This demanded at least 1 million acres of farmland devoted just to producing bread (let alone meat and vegetables to feed the army). The logistics of actually equipping 100,000 men, constructing at least two or three thousand transport craft, and organizing cargo convoys to feed an army of that size, is nothing short of astounding. I'm not saying the Yuan couldn't have done it administratively. I'm asking, would it have been economically feasible? Armies march on their stomachs. It's a hell of a lot easier to equip and dispatch a massive invasion force like that in a video game than it is in real life. As I said, in the pre-classical west, we see this sort of exaggeration often enough (and heck, even into the classical period, cf. Battle of Cannae). It is difficult to stress how implausible a 100,000-man invasion force is, especially when conducting operations overseas. I'm more apt to believe in an invasion force of 100,000 overland. But when you have to account for the construction of transport and escort vessels, and the logistical nightmare of not only transporting foodstuffs and materiel, but finding that much food and materiel, it becomes immensely doubtful. But hey, maybe they did accomplish it. If that is the case, it would have been that much more imperative for the Mongols to capture safe harbors (which they failed to do). |
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#9 |
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Banned
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GodEmperorLeto;
it is mongol empire at that time though I can not guess http://www.oniazuma.com/2007/10/testing.html |
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#10 |
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Banned
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Interesting read ....
The biggest factor that led to the downfall of China's Sui Dynasty was the series of massive expeditions into the Korean Peninsula to invade Goguryeo,one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea.The war that conscripted the most soldiers was caused by Sui Yangdi. The army was so enormous it was actually recorded in historical texts that it took 30 days for all the armies to exit their last rallying point near Shanhaiguan before invading Korea; in one instance, the soldiers--both conscripted and paid-- listed over 3000 warships, 1.15 million infantry, 50,000 cavalry, 5000 artillery, and more. There were just as many supporting laborers, and an exorbitant military budget that included mounds of equipment and rations (most of which never reached the Chinese vanguard, as they were captured by Goguryeo armies already). The army stretched to "1000 lis (a Chinese unit of length, in modern translation one half-kilometer, though its precision in antiquity may be questioned), or about 410 kilometers, across rivers and valleys, over mountains and hills." In all 4 main campaigns, the military conquest ended in failure. Nearly all the Chinese soldiers were defeated by the prominent army leader Eulji Mundeok of Goguryeo. For example, of the 305,000 Chinese troops, only 2,700 returned to China, according to the Book of Tang records, soldiers in summer conquests would return several years later, barely living through the cold and famishing winter. Many died of frostbite and hunger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_Dynasty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo-Sui_Wars |
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#12 |
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Banned
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Originally Posted by GodEmperorLeto
Mars Man ... ![]() I wanted to provide background of an ambititious imperialistic conquest parallel,it was in response to GodEmperorLeto's doubts. |
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#13 |
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Veni, vidi... vicodin?
![]() Join Date: Jun 4, 2006
Location: Busan, S. Korea
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Originally Posted by tokapi
Yeah, over a million infantry is, to be honest, logisitically impossible in a premodern society without motorized transportation. The army would starve simply because it wasn't possible to feed it given the technological capabilities of assembling and transporting foodstuffs.
Hence, the primary sources are of dubious historicity. The archaeological remains of the Mongol Invasion fleet doesn't support a 100,000-man invasion force. I'd believe 50,000, or maybe even 75,000. But not 100,000. That's the problem, the veracity of the sources themselves are highly suspect. Research methodologies in the West are much more critical (perhaps too critical at times) when compared to Eastern historiography. Thus, Western scholars take primary source material with a grain of salt at times, especially when dealing with inflated troop numbers. Troop numbers are usually magnified by a factor of 10 in order to foster the impression that the victors were grossly outnumbered. From what I understand, the Yuan administration was not nearly as efficient as that of other dynasties. While I won't deny that 100,000 men is possible, it is a definite stretch. However, you really can't expect me to believe that the Sui-Gogoryo chroniclers weren't inflating the troop sizes. A 1.15 million-man invasion force is almost impossible before the modern era (railroads, refrigeration, etc). If I get more time, I'll see if I can't hit my University's library and gather more information. I take Wikipedia with a grain of salt. I've found mistakes on it before. |
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#14 |
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Banned
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when wa sent soldiers to korea in 7th century, it was 42,000 I think if they won, they would be proud of # of overwhelming power. induction to estimate something is needed that hypothesis,observation, probability. it is a method of natural science..
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#15 |
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Banned
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One good book on Sui Dynasty written by an American author
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books This coming weekend,I will dig up some reliable Chinese & American sources on military capabilities & statistics of Mongol's Japan invasion. |
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#16 |
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Veni, vidi... vicodin?
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Originally Posted by tokapi
Please do. I won't be able to check anything out myself until probably Monday afternoon US EST. But I'd appreciate anything you can recommend to me. This stuff is pretty interesting. I'm actually kind of excited by any new work being done, hence my enthusiasm over the koifun archaeology and the excavations of the Mongol shipwrecks.
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#17 |
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Banned
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至元十七年(1280年)夏,元朝在高麗創設驛站,加封高麗王儲為開府儀同三司和行省左丞相。第二年 ( 1281 ),元朝在高麗徵發軍士、水手25,000人,戰船900艘,參加侵日戰爭。高麗民眾不堪其擾。至元十九年(1282年),日本侵擾高麗沿海,在高麗國王請求下,元軍駐防金州。元朝 正式在高麗設置征東行中書省,以高麗王與元軍將領阿塔海共領行省事.
In 1281,Yuan ( Mongol Empire ) Dynasty drafted Koryo conscripts,sailors 25,000 total,900 warships in the peninsula for participation of Japan invasion. Source: 《元史 》卷208 《 高麗傳 》。 = 《 Yuan/Mongol History 》 chapter 208 of 《 Koryo Dynasty chronicle 》 |
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#18 |
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Banned
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First invasion happened in 1274 after Japanese Shogun refused to pay tribute to Khubilai.The invasion force comprised of 15,000 Mongol, Jurchen ( Manchu ), and Chinese troops, and 8,000 Koryo troops, left from the peninsula.
7 years later in 1281,Khubilai plotted out a two-pronged assault strategy.The first force ( "Eastern Route fleet" ) of 50,000 Mongol ( complete with horses ) and Koryo troops would leave from the peninsula to retake Iki and Tsushima.There,they would link up with the second force ( "Southern Route Fleet" ) of 100,000 Chinese ( formerly defeated Southern Song ) troops leaving from southern China.The combined fleets would then attack Japan. Source: " 元史 "記載 Records of Yuan Dynasty ( complete Chinese language original version internet link below ) http://www.hoolulu.com/zh/25shi/23yuanshi/t-index.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Four_Histories note: 《新元史》 New ( revised ) History of Yuan Dynasty, compiled by Ke Shaomin ( 柯劭忞 ) in 1920.This updated edition corrected many hundred inaccuracies in previous text 元史. 二十四史 ( Japanese ) http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%...9B%9B%E5%8F%B2 新元史 ( Japanese ) http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%96%...85%83%E5%8F%B2 Last edited by tokapi; Jun 8, 2008 at 20:41. |
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#19 |
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" Military Establishment of the Yuan Dynasty " ( East Asian Monograph ) by CC Hsiao. It's an excellent book and covers this detail.
The Yuan military bureaucracy was headed by the Privy Council (shumi yuan), which answered directly to the emperor. The most elite branch of the army was the keshig, the imperial guard. Although it had a Mongolian core, the keshig was ethnically mixed, containing many Chinese as well. The main Yuan army was divided up along racial lines. There was the Mengku jun (Mongol army), the Tanmachi jun (western Asians) the Han jun(former Jin and Khitan troops), and the Xinfu jun (former Song troops). There were also small garrison armies stationed in each province, but these were controlled by local civil officials (except in cases of emergency). Soldiers were all drawn from designated military families (aolu). In terms of organization the Yuan army was structured along the same lines as the Mongo larmy, in units of 10,000, 1,000, 100, and 10. In terms of weapons and tactics the Yuan army undoubtedly used a mixture of Mongolian and Chinese arms and strategies. Regular units of cavalry, infantry, artillery, river forces, seagoing navy etc.. Also separate units of North Chinese, South Chinese, Koreans etc.. There was a heavy investment in Song technology and Yuan troops in general were heavily armed and armoured. How much of an improvement this was isn't clear as the suffered numerous defeats in the wars against Quaidu and Chatagyid troops from Central Asia (who were traditional Mongol cavalry armies with far less personal armour, and lower numbers as well). * Read also David Graff's " Medieval Chinese Warfare " for a good account of these campaigns. |
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#20 |
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Banned
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Originally Posted by caster51
You're correct caster51. The Yuan (Mongols) occupied Song China and were quick to uptake technology from the very advanced Chinese of the time. Gunpowder firearms became refined, with cannons from this period being some of the earliest firearms in the world. The Song Chinese were very advanced even if beleagured and in a period of Imperial decline, and the Mongols ( later the "Yuan" dynasty after their final victory ) needed to adopt engineers (Chinese) to learn how to conduct siege of mighty Chinese cities, or conduct massive naval battles along rivers. This was all new stuff to Mongols method of warfare who traditionally based combat around mounted warriors and their swift cavalry. Even Arab engineers were bought in to provide military techniques in the fight against China so the Mongol get points for adaptability.. I think Khubilai Khan's ' cheap war plan " failed miserably by using demoralized captured Southern Song Chinese troops for the invasion of Japan. In May of 1281 the Eastern Route Fleet set out from modern Masan, Korea and retook Iki and Tsushima with ease. But the Southern Route Fleet encountered problems and was delayed for a month. The impatient Mongol commander of the Eastern Route Fleet, Hsin-tu, decided to disobey orders and start the invasion without the Southern Route Fleet. The Eastern Fleet tried to land at Hakata bay on Kyushu, the same place they had landed in 1274, but the Japanese had since errected a stone barrier along the coast. The Fleet detoured to Shinganoshima but were met by fierce resistance. Only one Mongol unit landed successfully. The Japanese used small fishing boats to harrass the Mongol fleet with hit-and-run attacks, burning and sinking several ships. Finally the fleet retreated back to Iki. While anchored off Iki the fleet was decimated by a sudden outbreak of disease that killed 3,000 men. But hope was renwewed when the Southern Route Fleet finally arrived in July. The island of Hirado was taken and used as a rallying point for the entire invasion force. From there the Mongols attacked and occupied the island of Takashima. But before the invasion could even begin another typhoon descended on western Japan and decimated the Mongol fleet. Khubilai never attempted another invasion of Japan. |
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#21 |
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Veni, vidi... vicodin?
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Not Regarding Contingent-Sizes and Logistics...
To briefly shift the subject from the troop-muster and deployment capabilities, I'd like to suggest a few articles.
I was in the grad student office today, printing out copies of my thesis, and simultaneously surfing for information on J-Stor. If you ever get the funds, J-Stor is an indispensible asset to research. It puts almost a century of major scholarly journals in half-a-dozen European languages at your fingertips. Here are the articles I've downloaded, and their locations: Brudnoy, David. "Militant Sainthood: Nichiren." Numen, Vol. 17, Fasc. 1 (Feb., 1970), pp. 19-44. Nichiren was the Buddhist monk who warned of the impending Mongol invasions and was largely ignored until the Khan sent emissaries demanding the Japanese surrender. Shuho, Zuikei and Charlotte von Verschuer. "Japan's Foreign Relations 1200 to 1392 A.D.: A Translation from 'Zenrin Kokuhōki'." Monumenta Nipponica, Vol. 57, No. 4, (Winter, 2002), pp. 413-445. This includes a brief discussion on the Mongol Invasion. If you can get to a university library that has these journals you can take a look at these sources. |
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#22 |
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Veni, vidi... vicodin?
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Originally Posted by Shuho and von Verschuer
Shuho and von Verschuer, 2002, pp. 414-7
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#23 |
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Banned
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Dr. Kenzo Hayashida was correct in his finding that there were not 4,000 ships wrecked at Takashima,perhaps only 400 or so went down.
Because,the " Southern Route Fleet " of 3500 warships & 100,000 Chinese invasion force from southern China's Yangtze region headed for Shikanoshima (Shika Island) & Genkaishima (Genkai Island).( Source:江南軍十餘萬人,戰船三千五百艘,到達次能,志賀二島 ) It was the combined army of 50,000 Mongol & Koryo with 900 warships arrived at Takashima. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakata_Bay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iki_Island http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsushima_Islands |
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#24 |
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aka YOSUQUE
![]() Join Date: Apr 23, 2007
Location: @Tokyo, Jpn
Posts: 966
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The Mongol Invasion
I just watched Red Cliff, parts 1 & 2, and think the Mongol Invasion of Japan would make just as worthy a story for cinema. I don't think John Woo would want to make a similar film but there must be someone in Japan who could do it, and the following account seems credible to me:
http://asianhistory.about.com/od/jap...olinvasion.htm The parts describing both sides' ignorance of the other's code of war--the shogun's perfunctoral beheading of Mongol emissaries (who according to Mongol code had diplomatic immunity), and the Chinese lack of understanding bushido--attacking individual samurai, who had stepped out for solitary combat, en masse--would make particularly good scenes for the movie. As well as the typhoons--the "kamikaze." Anyone from Toho reading this? Last edited by Dogen Z; May 11, 2009 at 19:21. |
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#25 |
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aka YOSUQUE
![]() Join Date: Apr 23, 2007
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Not Red Cliff but....
I found a video enactment of the Mongol Invasion.
It's not the same quality as Red Cliff, but it might be interesting to watch if you have some spare time. There are multiple parts, so if you get bored just skip to the next part.However, you should read this account first to understand what's going on: http://asianhistory.about.com/od/jap...olinvasion.htm Last edited by Dogen Z; Jun 21, 2009 at 07:57. |
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