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Old Jun 3, 2008, 07:13   #1
GodEmperorLeto
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Underwater Archaeology and the Mongol Invasion

Recently, I read an old article from Naval History (June 2003), investigating the historicity of the "divine wind" that wrecked the Mongol fleet and spared the Japanese from a devastating invasion. The article plumbed into the historiographical nature of the invasion accounts, with some interesting results.

Firstly, the tale of the kamikaze decisively destroying the Mongol fleet has been demonstrated to be of Meiji manufacture. While a storm played a role in sparing the Japanese, other factors were instrumental in the defense of the Japanese islands. The typhoon story was propaganda that gained strength during the Meiji and subsequent Taisho eras. The Sino-Japanese War and Russo-Japanese War both helped to strengthen the narrative of the divinely summoned storm, propaganda that assured the Japanese people that the gods themselves would oppose an invasion of Japan.

Secondly, while the storm played an effective role in halting the Mongol assault, a number of other factors aided the Japanese. The Mongol's inability to coordinate a successful offensive and gain a secure foothold on Kyushu played a vital role. The Japanese had prepared for the invasion, and utilized the terrain to great advantage. A 25-mile wall, encircling Hakata Bay, fortified the Mongols' primary landing-zone against incursion, making an amphibious assault extremely difficult. Although the Japanese had constructed a minor navy, it did little more than harass and annoy the Mongol ships, which had fastened their ships together into massive floating fortresses against Japanese assault. It was this action, however, that proved to cripple the Mongol fleet during the typhoon.

Dr. Kenzo Hayashida, head of the excavation, says he believes there were not 4,000 ships wrecked at Takashima; perhaps only 400 or so went down. He bases that in part on a rule of thumb Thomas Conlan suggests--that the legend exaggerates forces by a factor of ten--and the fact that the seabed is not simply carpeted with artifacts. A mathematical model of artifact density supports Hiyashida's contention.

The new interpretation, based on archaeology, reconstructs the "Mongol" fleet as a complex Chinese- and Korean-built naval force of 1,170 war junks, each about 240 feet long. Each carried about 60 crew and soldiers and was capable of transporting horses. They towed a landing craft known as a battoru, which could carry up to 20 men. There were also smaller warships, including 300 Korean two-masted fighting ships and suppy vessels. The dimensions of the larger warships, twice that of contemporary European vessels, come directly from the wreck excavated at Takashima. ...

... (The Khan) failed in Japan because he did not have enough ships to bring sufficient troops to fight and win on land. A naval batle was out of the question. First, the Japanese did not have a navy to fight, his fleet split and fought separate battles on land without a coordinated effort, and the Japanese fought on a terrain difficult for the invaders to handle. In addition, seasonal typhoons brought havoc and disaster when the invaders arrived too late in the season and stayed too long in their prolonged fights ashore.

--Delgado, James P. "Shooting Down the Kamikaze Myth," in Naval History, June 2003, p. 41.
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Old Jun 3, 2008, 13:28   #2
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as far as i know, Song Dynasty was developed well though the fighting was weak.
after that ,Yuan Dynasty advanced Goryeo,korea.
Goryeo king surrendered immediately. He started hunting the Domestic anti-Mongolian power.
anti-mongolian power came to ask for helping in Japan.
since Battle of Baekgang, Japan never trusted korea
they were repressed by Goryeo king at last
The rule organization of Mongolia was set up in Korea
The hostages who were the traditional culture of the peninsula was sent to
Mongolia.
it was unwilling for Goryeo to be a vassal state of Yuan Dynasty because they were not sino-center country
The prince of the hostage who wanted to return to korea earnestly appealed for the loyalty to Mongolia.
he said " Everything is done by our own expense if said to attack Japan. Military forces and the ship procure it for myself. "

they flattered and wore Mongolian clothes and the hairstyle.

Btw, in chosun dynasty,It offered a bribe to the Ming envoy , and ancient manners were deleted from document under the compilation for them for the reasons of barbarous ,and it was not sino traditon and custom.
They denyed an own tradition.

anyway,The king of the hostage to whom the homecoming was permitted was ordered the Japan expedition according to the promise with a Mongolian emperor though I dont know Mongol's costume play was popular or sympathized.

A promised implementation was urged on them. There were neither a naval
engineering nor the money in Korea.

funny thing is korean always say "To break easy on purpose, the South Korean made the ship that Mongol took. then japan was saved "
it is typical Conversion in brain

only 1% was mongolian, rest of them were the korean and chinese at Japan expedition
The 1st Japan expedition started.
Yuan and the korea as manservant defeated the outpost force in Tsushima and Iki. they landed kyusyu..
there are many legend in whole Japan if kids did not stop to cry.
parents would say " Kokuri and mokuri would came "
In tsushima and iki island, All men were murdered by them
all women was punctured to the hands and it tied the woman with the rope . they sent them as comfort women
.
They could not invade the interior from the coastline though it fights against the Japanese army that waited in the Kyushu coast because a Japan stubbornly resisted.
When the night comes, a Japan started retreating.
The purpose is to enter the position in the firm water castle scheduled
beforehand, and to defend Dazaifu.
The Japanese army voluminous corps of reinforcement increased and crossed Chikugo river and began going north.
yuan anf korean army started the disadvantage and the becoming it retreat
then ,It was a raid of the storm there. ...
It became straggler hunting for Japan.

2nd Japan Expedition
They smoothly defeated the outpost force in Tsushima and Iki this time, too
They show up in the Kyushu northern part in the beginning of June.
However, the coastline region in the Kyushu northern part turned into the fortified zone, and they could not land this time.
It was repulsed in every case easily though they tried landing many times.
Yuan martial commander was almost killed in shiga island
Moreover, they run away to the sea. the Japanese sumurais made a night attack when they ran away to the sea......
Promised south Song army did not come at all.
Then, they decided to run away to Iki island.
The attack of a Japanese army continued though they ran away to Iki.
Food was lacked because they were tossed in the sea for two months, and
the epidemic spread in the shipboard because of the uncleanliness and starvation.
3000 soldiers die without fighting......

It was not possible to return to home because of Khubilai's order
They waited for south Song army while enduring an obstinate pursuit of hungry and the Japanese attack.

100,000 south song army came at last
and 40,000 korean remnants of a defeated army + Song army started general attack to Japan

however ,They failed though they landed from Nagasaki.
Again, it is a standby on the ship.

then , The typhoon came.
they tried to home. and Japan chased them to Tsushima
they were captured at last.After it disarmed, south Song ppl were released, and the ship was given . they repatriated to the own country.
However , all korean and mongolian were executed..........

btw
since Battle of Baekgang, Japan never trusted korea............
this story is so interesting.

1272年
日本侵略を提言 [10]
高麗に帰国[11]
1273年 三別抄の乱を元の力で鎮圧
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BF%...83%88%E7%8E%8B


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Old Jun 5, 2008, 00:20   #3
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Originally Posted by caster51 View Post
100,000 south song army came at last
and 40,000 korean remnants of a defeated army + Song army started general attack to Japan
however ,They failed though they landed from Nagasaki.
Again, it is a standby on the ship.
then , The typhoon came.
they tried to home. and Japan chased them to Tsushima
they were captured at last.After it disarmed, south Song ppl were released, and the ship was given . they repatriated to the own country.
However , all korean and mongolian were executed..........
btw
since Battle of Baekgang, Japan never trusted korea............
this story is so interesting.
1272N
{N [10]
ɋA[11]
1273N Oʏ̗̗͂Œ
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BF%...83%88%E7%8E%8B
The 100,000-man force is probably an exaggeration. The logistics would have made such an invasion almost impossible to effectively stage. Xerxes supposedly invaded Greece with that many men during the Thermopylae-Salamis campaign (480s BC). This is common before Thucydides--most battle records are grossly exaggerated.

The Southern Song navy was captured and incorporated into Kublai Khan's expeditionary force. I've read a little about the Battle of Hakata Bay and it is most fascinating. What is also interesting is how the victorious repulsion helped to cement Hojo pre-eminence as the regents for the Kamakura Bakufu. Most of the invading prisoners were massacred, and most of those were not Mongols (they only formed about 1% of the force, primarily the officer corps), while the remainder were N. Chinese and Koreans.

Some people complain that the beheadings of prisoners was cruel and unnecessary. Those people don't study pre-modern war that often. Besides, it served as a mighty deterrent against possible future aggression.
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Old Jun 5, 2008, 12:14   #4
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Some people complain that the beheadings of prisoners was cruel and unnecessary. Those people don't study pre-modern war that often. Besides, it served as a mighty deterrent against possible future aggression
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B8%...AB%8B%E5%AF%BA
Jyoryu-ji, fujisawa,kanagawa.
at that time, five mongolians came to Japan to bring Khubilai's massage.
however, they were executed..
This temple holds a service of them.....

Enkakuji,kamakura
The temple was founded in 1282 by a Chinese Zen monk at the request of the then ruler of Japan, the regent Hōjō Tokimune after he had repelled a Mongolian invasion in the period 1274 to 1281. Tokimune had a long-standing commitment to Zen and the temple was intended to honour those of both sides who died in the war,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engaku-ji

there are many temples like these in japan.
mongolian sumo wrestler at Jyoryuji
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Old Jun 5, 2008, 12:44   #5
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The 100,000-man force is probably an exaggeration. The logistics would have made such an invasion almost impossible to effectively stage. Xerxes supposedly invaded Greece with that many men during the Thermopylae-Salamis campaign (480s BC). This is common before Thucydides--most battle records are grossly exaggerated
acooding to chapter ;Japan in Yuan history
and Goryeo history document, I think it is not an exaggeration...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan

元史日本伝
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-...ensi_1281.html

七日、日本人来り戦い、尽く死し、余の二、三万はそのために虜去せらる。九日、八角島に至り、尽く蒙古・高麗・漢人を殺し、新附軍は唐人たりといい、殺さずしてこれを奴となす。 □[門に昌]が輩はこれなり」と。けだし行省の官、事を議して相下らず。故に皆軍を棄てて帰る。これを久しくして莫青と 呉万五とまた逃れ還る。十万の衆、還るを得たる者三人のみ

高麗史日本伝
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-...i_01_1266.html

in Japanese history text book, it is never written as an invasion.
South Korea is pretending as the victim....

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Old Jun 5, 2008, 13:00   #6
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Originally Posted by caster51 View Post

I think it is not an exaggeration...


Mongol troops finally conquered Southern Song Dynasty ( remaining southern part of China > south of Huai River after Chinese lost in the North ) in 1279.Second invasion of Japan came in 1281,Han-Chinese generals 范文虎 & 李庭 ( plus others ) led an army of 100,000 from Yangtze region.


1279年元軍征服南宋之後,於1281年春發動了對日本的第二次入侵。元軍的這次入侵規模大於第一次,其 中由范文虎、李庭等人率領的江南軍就有十余萬人

Source: http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...&variant=zh-hk
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Old Jun 5, 2008, 14:08   #7
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Originally Posted by caster51 View Post


as the victim ....

Adopted Mongol names and customs ( 永遠の隷属民族ですからね )
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Old Jun 6, 2008, 00:31   #8
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Originally Posted by tokapi View Post
Mongol troops finally conquered Southern Song Dynasty ( remaining southern part of China > south of Huai River after Chinese lost in the North ) in 1279.Second invasion of Japan came in 1281,Han-Chinese generals 䗕 & ( plus others ) led an army of 100,000 from Yangtze region.
Originally Posted by caster51
I think it is not an exaggeration
If the sources did not exaggerate this, then I'm a monkey's uncle.

The whole of the Roman Empire at it's height (Antonine Dynasty) had no more than 1/4 million men under arms (250,000) throughout the entire empire. This demanded at least 1 million acres of farmland devoted just to producing bread (let alone meat and vegetables to feed the army).

The logistics of actually equipping 100,000 men, constructing at least two or three thousand transport craft, and organizing cargo convoys to feed an army of that size, is nothing short of astounding. I'm not saying the Yuan couldn't have done it administratively. I'm asking, would it have been economically feasible? Armies march on their stomachs. It's a hell of a lot easier to equip and dispatch a massive invasion force like that in a video game than it is in real life.

As I said, in the pre-classical west, we see this sort of exaggeration often enough (and heck, even into the classical period, cf. Battle of Cannae). It is difficult to stress how implausible a 100,000-man invasion force is, especially when conducting operations overseas. I'm more apt to believe in an invasion force of 100,000 overland. But when you have to account for the construction of transport and escort vessels, and the logistical nightmare of not only transporting foodstuffs and materiel, but finding that much food and materiel, it becomes immensely doubtful.

But hey, maybe they did accomplish it. If that is the case, it would have been that much more imperative for the Mongols to capture safe harbors (which they failed to do).
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Old Jun 6, 2008, 01:19   #9
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GodEmperorLeto;
it is mongol empire at that time though I can not guess

http://www.oniazuma.com/2007/10/testing.html
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Old Jun 6, 2008, 12:09   #10
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Interesting read ....

The biggest factor that led to the downfall of China's Sui Dynasty was the series of massive expeditions into the Korean Peninsula to invade Goguryeo,one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea.The war that conscripted the most soldiers was caused by Sui Yangdi. The army was so enormous it was actually recorded in historical texts that it took 30 days for all the armies to exit their last rallying point near Shanhaiguan before invading Korea; in one instance, the soldiers--both conscripted and paid-- listed over 3000 warships, 1.15 million infantry, 50,000 cavalry, 5000 artillery, and more. There were just as many supporting laborers, and an exorbitant military budget that included mounds of equipment and rations (most of which never reached the Chinese vanguard, as they were captured by Goguryeo armies already). The army stretched to "1000 lis (a Chinese unit of length, in modern translation one half-kilometer, though its precision in antiquity may be questioned), or about 410 kilometers, across rivers and valleys, over mountains and hills."

In all 4 main campaigns, the military conquest ended in failure. Nearly all the Chinese soldiers were defeated by the prominent army leader Eulji Mundeok of Goguryeo. For example, of the 305,000 Chinese troops, only 2,700 returned to China, according to the Book of Tang records, soldiers in summer conquests would return several years later, barely living through the cold and famishing winter. Many died of frostbite and hunger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_Dynasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo-Sui_Wars
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Old Jun 6, 2008, 16:26   #11
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Now how did this manage to go off topic, and so easily and soon? This thread should remain about an attempt to invade the Japanese islands.
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Old Jun 6, 2008, 23:55   #12
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Originally Posted by GodEmperorLeto View Post


The whole of the Roman Empire at it's height (Antonine Dynasty) had no more than 1/4 million men under arms (250,000) throughout the entire empire. This demanded at least 1 million acres of farmland devoted just to producing bread (let alone meat and vegetables to feed the army).

The logistics of actually equipping 100,000 men, constructing at least two or three thousand transport craft, and organizing cargo convoys to feed an army of that size, is nothing short of astounding.

I'm not saying the Yuan couldn't have done it administratively.I'm asking, would it have been economically feasible?


Mars Man ...

I wanted to provide background of an ambititious imperialistic conquest parallel,it was in response to GodEmperorLeto's doubts.
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Old Jun 7, 2008, 05:48   #13
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Originally Posted by tokapi View Post
The army was so enormous it was actually recorded in historical texts that it took 30 days for all the armies to exit their last rallying point near Shanhaiguan before invading Korea; in one instance, the soldiers--both conscripted and paid-- listed over 3000 warships, 1.15 million infantry, 50,000 cavalry, 5000 artillery, and more.
Yeah, over a million infantry is, to be honest, logisitically impossible in a premodern society without motorized transportation. The army would starve simply because it wasn't possible to feed it given the technological capabilities of assembling and transporting foodstuffs.

Hence, the primary sources are of dubious historicity. The archaeological remains of the Mongol Invasion fleet doesn't support a 100,000-man invasion force. I'd believe 50,000, or maybe even 75,000. But not 100,000.

That's the problem, the veracity of the sources themselves are highly suspect. Research methodologies in the West are much more critical (perhaps too critical at times) when compared to Eastern historiography. Thus, Western scholars take primary source material with a grain of salt at times, especially when dealing with inflated troop numbers. Troop numbers are usually magnified by a factor of 10 in order to foster the impression that the victors were grossly outnumbered.

From what I understand, the Yuan administration was not nearly as efficient as that of other dynasties. While I won't deny that 100,000 men is possible, it is a definite stretch. However, you really can't expect me to believe that the Sui-Gogoryo chroniclers weren't inflating the troop sizes. A 1.15 million-man invasion force is almost impossible before the modern era (railroads, refrigeration, etc).

If I get more time, I'll see if I can't hit my University's library and gather more information. I take Wikipedia with a grain of salt. I've found mistakes on it before.
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Old Jun 7, 2008, 10:40   #14
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Sui-Gogoryo chroniclers weren't inflating the troop size
it is written in korean doccument, too..
when wa sent soldiers to korea in 7th century, it was 42,000

I think if they won, they would be proud of # of overwhelming power.

induction
to estimate something is needed that hypothesis,observation, probability.
it is a method of natural science..

If I get more time, I'll see if I can't hit my University's library and gather more information. I take Wikipedia with a grain of salt. I've found mistakes on it before
GodEmperorLeto; I am looking forward to it.
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Old Jun 7, 2008, 12:35   #15
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One good book on Sui Dynasty written by an American author

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

This coming weekend,I will dig up some reliable Chinese & American sources on military capabilities & statistics of Mongol's Japan invasion.
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Old Jun 7, 2008, 14:42   #16
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Originally Posted by tokapi View Post
One good book on Sui Dynasty written by an American author
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
This coming weekend,I will dig up some reliable Chinese & American sources on military capabilities & statistics of Mongol's Japan invasion.
Please do. I won't be able to check anything out myself until probably Monday afternoon US EST. But I'd appreciate anything you can recommend to me. This stuff is pretty interesting. I'm actually kind of excited by any new work being done, hence my enthusiasm over the koifun archaeology and the excavations of the Mongol shipwrecks.
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Old Jun 8, 2008, 18:14   #17
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至元十七年(1280年)夏,元朝在高麗創設驛站,加封高麗王儲為開府儀同三司和行省左丞相。第二年 ( 1281 ),元朝在高麗徵發軍士、水手25,000人,戰船900艘,參加侵日戰爭。高麗民眾不堪其擾。至元十九年(1282年),日本侵擾高麗沿海,在高麗國王請求下,元軍駐防金州。元朝 正式在高麗設置征東行中書省,以高麗王與元軍將領阿塔海共領行省事.

In 1281,Yuan ( Mongol Empire ) Dynasty drafted Koryo conscripts,sailors 25,000 total,900 warships in the peninsula for participation of Japan invasion.

Source: 《元史 》卷208 《 高麗傳 》。 = 《 Yuan/Mongol History 》 chapter 208 of 《 Koryo Dynasty chronicle 》
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Old Jun 8, 2008, 19:31   #18
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First invasion happened in 1274 after Japanese Shogun refused to pay tribute to Khubilai.The invasion force comprised of 15,000 Mongol, Jurchen ( Manchu ), and Chinese troops, and 8,000 Koryo troops, left from the peninsula.

7 years later in 1281,Khubilai plotted out a two-pronged assault strategy.The first force ( "Eastern Route fleet" ) of 50,000 Mongol ( complete with horses ) and Koryo troops would leave from the peninsula to retake Iki and Tsushima.There,they would link up with the second force ( "Southern Route Fleet" ) of 100,000 Chinese ( formerly defeated Southern Song ) troops leaving from southern China.The combined fleets would then attack Japan.

Source: " 元史 "記載 Records of Yuan Dynasty ( complete Chinese language original version internet link below )

http://www.hoolulu.com/zh/25shi/23yuanshi/t-index.htm



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Four_Histories

note: 《新元史》 New ( revised ) History of Yuan Dynasty, compiled by Ke Shaomin ( 柯劭忞 ) in 1920.This updated edition corrected many hundred inaccuracies in previous text 元史.



二十四史 ( Japanese )

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%...9B%9B%E5%8F%B2

新元史 ( Japanese )

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%96%...85%83%E5%8F%B2

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Old Jun 8, 2008, 20:09   #19
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" Military Establishment of the Yuan Dynasty " ( East Asian Monograph ) by CC Hsiao. It's an excellent book and covers this detail.

The Yuan military bureaucracy was headed by the Privy Council (shumi yuan), which answered directly to the emperor. The most elite branch of the army was the keshig, the imperial guard. Although it had a Mongolian core, the keshig was ethnically mixed, containing many Chinese as well. The main Yuan army was divided up along racial lines. There was the Mengku jun (Mongol army), the Tanmachi jun (western Asians) the Han jun(former Jin and Khitan troops), and the Xinfu jun (former Song troops). There were also small garrison armies stationed in each province, but these were controlled by local civil officials (except in cases of emergency). Soldiers were all drawn from designated military families (aolu).

In terms of organization the Yuan army was structured along the same lines as the Mongo larmy, in units of 10,000, 1,000, 100, and 10. In terms of weapons and tactics the Yuan army undoubtedly used a mixture of Mongolian and Chinese arms and strategies.

Regular units of cavalry, infantry, artillery, river forces, seagoing navy etc.. Also separate units of North Chinese, South Chinese, Koreans etc..

There was a heavy investment in Song technology and Yuan troops in general were heavily armed and armoured. How much of an improvement this was isn't clear as the suffered numerous defeats in the wars against Quaidu and Chatagyid troops from Central Asia (who were traditional Mongol cavalry armies with far less personal armour, and lower numbers as well).

* Read also David Graff's " Medieval Chinese Warfare " for a good account of these campaigns.
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Old Jun 8, 2008, 20:59   #20
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Originally Posted by caster51 View Post


as far as i know, Song Dynasty was developed well though the fighting was weak.

2nd Japan Expedition,they smoothly defeated the outpost force in Tsushima and Iki this time too.They show up in the Kyushu northern part in the beginning of June.However, the coastline region in the Kyushu northern part turned into the fortified zone, and they could not land this time.

Promised south Song army did not come at all.Food was lacked because they were tossed in the sea for two months, and the epidemic spread in the shipboard because of the uncleanliness and starvation.3000 soldiers die without fighting......

It was not possible to return to home because of Khubilai's order
They waited for south Song army while enduring an obstinate pursuit of hungry and the Japanese attack.

100,000 south song army came at last,and 40,000 korean remnants of a defeated army + Song army started general attack to Japan.



You're correct caster51.

The Yuan (Mongols) occupied Song China and were quick to uptake technology from the very advanced Chinese of the time.

Gunpowder firearms became refined, with cannons from this period being some of the earliest firearms in the world. The Song Chinese were very advanced even if beleagured and in a period of Imperial decline, and the Mongols ( later the "Yuan" dynasty after their final victory ) needed to adopt engineers (Chinese) to learn how to conduct siege of mighty Chinese cities, or conduct massive naval battles along rivers.

This was all new stuff to Mongols method of warfare who traditionally based combat around mounted warriors and their swift cavalry. Even Arab engineers were bought in to provide military techniques in the fight against China so the Mongol get points for adaptability..


I think Khubilai Khan's ' cheap war plan " failed miserably by using demoralized captured Southern Song Chinese troops for the invasion of Japan.

In May of 1281 the Eastern Route Fleet set out from modern Masan, Korea and retook Iki and Tsushima with ease. But the Southern Route Fleet encountered problems and was delayed for a month. The impatient Mongol commander of the Eastern Route Fleet, Hsin-tu, decided to disobey orders and start the invasion without the Southern Route Fleet. The Eastern Fleet tried to land at Hakata bay on Kyushu, the same place they had landed in 1274, but the Japanese had since errected a stone barrier along the coast. The Fleet detoured to Shinganoshima but were met by fierce resistance. Only one Mongol unit landed successfully. The Japanese used small fishing boats to harrass the Mongol fleet with hit-and-run attacks, burning and sinking several ships. Finally the fleet retreated back to Iki.

While anchored off Iki the fleet was decimated by a sudden outbreak of disease that killed 3,000 men. But hope was renwewed when the Southern Route Fleet finally arrived in July. The island of Hirado was taken and used as a rallying point for the entire invasion force. From there the Mongols attacked and occupied the island of Takashima. But before the invasion could even begin another typhoon descended on western Japan and decimated the Mongol fleet. Khubilai never attempted another invasion of Japan.
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 02:08   #21
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Not Regarding Contingent-Sizes and Logistics...

To briefly shift the subject from the troop-muster and deployment capabilities, I'd like to suggest a few articles.

I was in the grad student office today, printing out copies of my thesis, and simultaneously surfing for information on J-Stor. If you ever get the funds, J-Stor is an indispensible asset to research. It puts almost a century of major scholarly journals in half-a-dozen European languages at your fingertips.

Here are the articles I've downloaded, and their locations:

Brudnoy, David. "Militant Sainthood: Nichiren." Numen, Vol. 17, Fasc. 1 (Feb., 1970), pp. 19-44.

Nichiren was the Buddhist monk who warned of the impending Mongol invasions and was largely ignored until the Khan sent emissaries demanding the Japanese surrender.

Shuho, Zuikei and Charlotte von Verschuer. "Japan's Foreign Relations 1200 to 1392 A.D.: A Translation from 'Zenrin Kokuhōki'." Monumenta Nipponica, Vol. 57, No. 4, (Winter, 2002), pp. 413-445.

This includes a brief discussion on the Mongol Invasion.

If you can get to a university library that has these journals you can take a look at these sources.
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 02:28   #22
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Originally Posted by Shuho and von Verschuer
The Mongol invasions of Japanresulted from political developments on the continent. From his seat in Karakorumin Mongolia, Ghengis Khan (1167-1227) sent his hordes of horsemen throughNorth Asia. He soon besieged Beijing, capital of the Jurchen (Ch. Niizhen) Jin empire (1115-1234) based in Manchuria, occupied large partsof Xinjiang and InnerMongolia, and continued his military campaigns to the west throughthe Caucasus and Ukraine up to Poland. His four successors controlled the immense Mongol empire reaching from Hungary to Korea and from Moscow to the Persian Gulf. In China, the Jurchen, who had occupied the northern part of the country, drove the Song court out of the capital of Kaifeng it in 1127. In 1138 the Southern Song dynasty (1127-1279) established a new capital in Hangzhou Ji,i. In the 1230s the Jurchen Jin were themselves ousted by Ogodei Khan (1229-1241), and at the same time Kubilai Khan (1215-1294) started his campaigns against Korea, which was ruled by the Koryo dynasty (918-1392). After six Mongol invasions, in 1259 the Korean court submitted to Mongol suzerainty. As a forced ally of the Mongols, Korea subsequently played a central part in the Mongol invasions of Japan. In 1260 Kubilai Khan proclaimed himself Emperor Shizu (r. 1260-1294), in 1267 he moved his capital to Beijing, and in 1271 he established the Yuan dynasty.

Kubilai Khan finally occupied all of China in 1279, and the Mongol Yuan
dynasty (1206-1368) ruled the country until 1368. In Japan, Minamoto no Yoritomo (1147-1199), after his victory over the Taira in 1185, controlled large partsof easternJapan.He established his military government in Kamakuraand in 1192 obtained from Emperor Go-Toba (r. 1183-1198) appointment as shogun. The Kamakurabakufu extended its authority to other parts of the country, especially after Retired Emperor Go-Toba's failure in 1221 to reclaim prerogatives yielded to the bakufu, but political power in Kamakurasoon passed to the hands of the Hojo family who acted as regents to a succession of puppet shogun. The regent at the time of the Mongol invasions was Hojo Tokimune (1251-1284; regent, 1268-1284). The Mongol invasions of Japan in 1274 and in 1281 were preceded by a long prelude of threateningmessages from the Mongol courtin Beijing via Korea and were also followed for many years by continued threats of new Mongol offensives. The entire episode lasted in fact from 1265 to 1291. (On the events from 1266 to 1291, see Taigai kankeishi sogo nenpyo, pp. 196-238; Ishii Masatoshi' s notes and commentary in Zenrinkokuhoki,pp. 80-92,538-46; Murai2001; Kawazoe 1977. )

Japan learned for the firsttime about the Mongol threatin 1267. News reached
Kyoto from Kyushu that a Korean and a Mongolian envoy had arrived on
Tsushima island with letters addressed by their respective governments to the Japanese authorities. The diary of a court official notes for Bun'ei (1267).
11.25, "[Two] letters arrived [in Tsushima?] from Koryo. They say that the
Mongols have attacked and occupied Korea and that they will also attack Japan." (Geki nikki,cited in Taigai kankeishi sogo nenpyo, p. 196.) The letters themselves reached Kamakuraand Kyoto in early 1268, forwarded by the Kyushu governor (dazai no shoni) Muto Sukeyoshi Ai (1198-1281). The letter from Kubilai Khan is transcribed in the Zenrin kokuhoki entries for 1265 and 1266. It naturally caused the imperial court and shogunate much agitation. Messages went back and forth between Kyoto and Kamakura. Councils were held. Imperial messengers were sent to the Ise shrines.

Offerings were ordered throughout the country and prayers organized by the
head of the Tendai sect. After a five-month stay atthe Dazaifu ) (the Kyushu government), the Mongol and Korean envoys went back without any answer
from Japan.

After this prelude, Mongol and Korean envoys came to Japan nearly every
year. None were allowed to go to Kyoto or Kamakura,and some even were not allowed to land in Hakataafter first stopping in Tsushima. No envoy came back with an official reply from Japan, and in 1274 Kubilai Khan ordered an offensive. The Sino-Mongol-Korean army left from Korea and landed in Tsushima, Hirado FP, and Hakata bay. The battles lasted three weeks in the
tenth month of 1274 and ended with the retreat of the Mongol army (see the
Zenrin kokuhokientries of 1271 to 1274).

A year later (entry of 1275), an official delegation of the Yuan court for the
first time reached Kamakura. Hojo Tokimune, however, executed the envoys,
and Kubilai Khan ordered preparations for the next attack. In the meantime
Kubilai also continued his campaigns in China, which he occupied entirely in
1279. The next offensive against Japan, in 1281, was thus led by two fleets: a Chinese force from Jiangnan iI setting out from the coast near Ningbo gts
and an army of mixed origin that left from southern Korea. Battles were foughtin the sixth and seventh months on Takashima ! island situated off Matsuura the western coast of Kyushu, on Shika island in Hakatabay, and on
Iki island; they ended with the destruction of the Mongol fleet by a storm (see the entries of 1275 to 1281; As shown on the famous Moko sharai ekotoba (Scroll of the Mongol Invasions; ca. 1293), the Mongol armies used firearms.The exact natureof these explosives, called huopaojian in Chinese sources, remained unknown until a recent discovery on Takashima island.
At a point about ten meters deep offshore the island, archaeologists discovered around fifty fragments of a shipwreck and several dozens of earthenware balls fourteen centimeters in diameter that seem originally to have contained an explosive like sulphur. These balls might have had a string for a fuse and have been shot from a bow with an arrow. See Nihon keizai shinbun, 20 October 2001. For the Mongol firearms as reported in Chinese sources, see Yamauchi 2001, p. 23. ). Our authorquotes Genko shakusho (1322) and Kitabatake Chikafusa's (1293-1354) Jinno shotoki (1339) as saying that the gods have shown their power by appearing in the shape of a storm (entries of 1281 and 1299).

Yet the Mongol threats did not end in 1281. From 1283 the Mongol ruleragain
sent envoys to Japan with threatening messages and began preparations for a third offensive against Japan. As the earlier delegations of secular officials had all failed, Kubilai this time sent Buddhist priests because religious figures had previously been welcomed in Japan. Like earlier missives, Kubilai's letter
broughtby the priest Ruzhi (dates unknown) presses Japanto acknowledge
Mongol suzerainty. In 1286 Kubilai Khan finally gave up the idea of mounting
a furtheroffensive against Japan.Yet Ruzhi was sent once more to Japanin 1291; and in 1299 the grandson of Kubilai, Emperor Chengzong (r. 1294-1307) again tried to obtain Japanese submission by sending the Chinese priest Yishan Yining (Jp. Issan Ichinei, 1247-1317) as an envoy (see the entries from 1283 to 1299).

The account in Zenrin kokuhoki of the Mongol invasions can be valued as the
oldest extant synthesis of sources, written only two centuries afterthe event.(Kawazoe 1977, p. 64.). Its vivid description of the succession of developments allows the reader to grasp the situation both on the continent and in Japan.Not limiting himself to following any single Japanese account, Zuikei Shuho draws on both Chinese and Japanese sources, and thereby presents a view "fromwithout as well as within."

Among the Chinese sources he quotes are Yuanshi -C (History of the Yuan
Dynasty), written by Song Lian *5 (1310-1381) in 1370, which traces the
Mongol campaigns and rule in China from the time of Genghis Khan. Chapter
208 contains an account of relations with Japan.Zuikei Shuho also cites a work he terms Song Yuan tongjian cS7t (Complete Mirrorof the Song and Yuan Dynasties). Although several extant texts carry this title, none contain the passages quoted by Zuikei Shuho. Most (but not all) of the information taken from this work corresponds to material found also in Yuanshi and Koryosa fit (History of the Koryo Dynasty), completed in 1451 by Kim Chongso (1390-1453) et al. It seems possible that Zuikei Shuho made use of a Chinese work that has been lost today. The reportof the missions of Ruzhi is quoted from the diary Haiyinjiedai'anji, written by the priest himself, which is also lost today. Possibly Yishan Yining (Issan Ichinei), Ruzhi's successor as
abbot of the same temple in China, broughtthis diaryto Japanin 1299 andit was still extant in Zuikei Shuho's time. The text of the letter from Kubilai Khan brought to Japan by Ruzhi in 1283 cannot be found in Yuanshi or in Japanese sources other than Zenrin kokuhoki.

Among Japanese sources, Zuikei Shaho makes use of Genko shakusho, a col-
lection of Japanese and Chinese priests' biographies written by Kokan Shiren (1278-1346) in 1322, only fifty years after the Mongol wars, and Jinno shotoki which the Confucian scholar Kiyohara Naritada (1409-1467) valued as a historical treatise and brought to Zuikei Shauh's attention. Zuikei Shuho also cites a source (or sources) he termsNihon koki EBtd3 (Old Records of Japan).As for the events concerning the Mongols, the passages he quotes correspond to similar passages in Teio hennenki *E5TN*, a chronicle attributed to the priest Eiyiu and writtenbetween 1364 and 1380. In the entry for 1286, Zuikei Shuho states his personal opinion regarding the invasions. To him, the Mongol invasions could have been avoided if the Kamakura bakufu had responded promptlyto the Mongol messages andnot left them without any reply.

He also criticizes the Chinese sources for noting only that the Yuan court abandoned the offensive and not making clear the reason why. To Zuikei Shuho, the Mongols did not give up theirplans of theirown volition; they had been defeated thanks to the "power of the country of the gods."
Zenrin kokuhoki's account of the Mongol episodes is quite detailed, probablybecause these events left an importantmarkon Japan's history and also because they document the glory of the country. The opposite is true for the problems caused by piracy in the JapanSea during the thirteenthand fourteenth centuries.

Our text presents this somewhat embarrassingmatterfor Japanin only sporadic
form in the context of discussion of diplomatic correspondence with Korea and China. If the Mongol episodes can be styled a success story, the issue of piracy reflects the failure of the Japanese authorities to control the situation. Zuikei Shuho mentions piracy only from 1367 onwards, but the problem started in the 1220s.
Shuho and von Verschuer, 2002, pp. 414-7
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 15:55   #23
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Dr. Kenzo Hayashida was correct in his finding that there were not 4,000 ships wrecked at Takashima,perhaps only 400 or so went down.

Because,the " Southern Route Fleet " of 3500 warships & 100,000 Chinese invasion force from southern China's Yangtze region headed for Shikanoshima (Shika Island) & Genkaishima (Genkai Island).( Source:江南軍十餘萬人,戰船三千五百艘,到達次能,志賀二島 )

It was the combined army of 50,000 Mongol & Koryo with 900 warships arrived at Takashima.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakata_Bay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iki_Island

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsushima_Islands
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Old May 11, 2009, 18:30   #24
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The Mongol Invasion

I just watched Red Cliff, parts 1 & 2, and think the Mongol Invasion of Japan would make just as worthy a story for cinema. I don't think John Woo would want to make a similar film but there must be someone in Japan who could do it, and the following account seems credible to me:

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/jap...olinvasion.htm

The parts describing both sides' ignorance of the other's code of war--the shogun's perfunctoral beheading of Mongol emissaries (who according to Mongol code had diplomatic immunity), and the Chinese lack of understanding bushido--attacking individual samurai, who had stepped out for solitary combat, en masse--would make particularly good scenes for the movie. As well as the typhoons--the "kamikaze."

Anyone from Toho reading this?

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Old Jun 20, 2009, 17:26   #25
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Not Red Cliff but....

I found a video enactment of the Mongol Invasion. It's not the same quality as Red Cliff, but it might be interesting to watch if you have some spare time. There are multiple parts, so if you get bored just skip to the next part.

However, you should read this account first to understand what's going on:

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/jap...olinvasion.htm



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