What's new

Continental Migrations from Korean Peninsula to Japanese islands

agnoni

後輩
14 Aug 2010
44
0
16
I had extensive discussions on another forum. But it seems that I don't get any answers so I would like to ask your helps on solving mystery on japanese ethnics and wave of korean migrations to japanese islands.

In this thread, I assume migrations mean "yayoi" migrations from 100BC-400AD. Also, there are some particular wordings that sound like ranting, but this is because the sources are from discussion forums, so please spare me, if this include offensive uses of words to anyone.
First off, I start with genetics...

Some Korean pointed me out the article posted below, and it seems that there is a way to interpret the genetic makeups of japanese and korean in relation to the historical events in and outside japan.


Y-chromosomal Binary Haplogroups in the Japanese Population
and their Relationship to 16 Y-STR Polymorphisms
Nonaka et al.​

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111...006.00343.x/pdf

South Korean:
  • O2b* - 17.2 percents (So-called uniquely Korean gene)
  • O2b1 - 12 percents (So-called uniquely Japanese gene)
  • O3 - 44.5 percents

Japanese:
  • O2b* - around 8 percents (So-called uniquely Korean gene)
  • O2b1 - around 20 percents (So-called uniquely Japanese gene)
  • O3 - around 20 percents


1002071632f058535f7b501png-1.jpg

O2b (or O2b*) is 17.2 percents of south korean. And, O3 is 44.5 percents of south korean.
C3 is 8.8% of south korean.
Question is O2b1 is really Japanese gene? Are they borne in Korean peninsula or in Japan?

Haplogroup O2b1
Time of origin 7,870 [95% CI 5,720–12,630] years ago[8]
Place of origin perhaps the Japanese archipelago[8]
Ancestor O2b
Defining mutations 47z
Highest frequencies
Japanese 24 percents [12] (19%[3]-25%[8][9]),
Okinawans 17 percents [13] (11%[8]-20%[9]),
Koreans 8 percents[14] (4%[8][11]-12%[15]),
Manchus 7 percents[16] (0%[11][8][15]-19%[4])

What I don't really understand about O2b*, korean gene, is that only 17.2 percents of Korean males had this lineage, whereas females had supposedly more of these O2b* equivalents, D4 mtDNA. Then, what is the rest of 82.8 percents of the korean male lineages? And if women were D4 mtDNA , then this means that another group colonized this O2b* group?

I believe there are two big points in history, this comes to a realization.

Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313)
Goguryeo and Altaic revival?

Lelang commandery lasted more than 400 years of chinese rules in Korean peninsula, and it may be that ancient Koreans were all moved to the tiny edges of remaining peninsula, that probably implies the demise of Koreanic races at one point, or large demographic changes from O2b* into O3 and C3 by chinese invasions. Then, Goguryeo retook the peninsula, so there comes another demographic transformations adding more O2b?

Just like Genghis Khan conquered the world.
http://anthropology.net/2007/05/21/genghis...an-populations/
It has been hypothesized that about 16 million people have some of his genetic make up. To test this hypothesis, researchers investigated Y-chromosomes with representatives of 18 nations of Northern Eurasia.​

There are historical events that make Han chinese, conqueror of the Korean Peninsula for 400 years like Genghis Khan.

So, what does this mean? Which groups of korean can cross the sea, and join japanese? How many of them came to japan from korea?
Together with helps from korean people, I made three scenarios on the movement of korean people into japanese islands.

Scenario: Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers
Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) swept out Gojoseon men (O2b* @ YDNA), and mated with Gojoseon women (D4 @ mtDNA)? Gojoseon demography transformed from O2b* into O3. Goguryeo people (C3) came and took out the land from both Gojoseon and Lelang Commandery. Gojoseon men, subjugated and enslaved by Goguryeo, fled to Japan to become the 8 percents of present day Japanese, colonized Japan, and finally mixed with and assimilated into the primitive people of japan (D @ YDNA)..?​

Scenario: Goguryeo men are O2b* carriers
Gojoseon men (C3 @ YDNA) were colonized by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) for 400 years. Goguryeo men (O2b* @YDNA), originally from Jilin province of China, came and took control of Lelang Commandery (O3 @ YDNA) and progressed to subjugate/enslave C3 carriers, Mahan, Jinhan, Byeonhan men (C3 @ YDNA)? Later Goguryeo mixed with the han chinese (O3 @ YDNA) to form korean ethnic group (O2b* and O3). Enslaved and suppressed by Goguryeo, Baekje, crossed the sea, and become the 8 percents of present day Japanese, colonized Japan, and finally mixed and assimilated into the primitive jomon people (D @ YDNA)?​

Scenario: Goguryeo men and Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers, i.e., Goguryeo is a descendant of Gojoseon
At the founding of Goguryeo (BC37-668), Goguryeo people were already colonized by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313). Many Gojoseon women were mated with Han chinese men to survive the hardship of colonial rule. Majority of Goguryeo women were married with Han chinese men (O3), and original Goguryeo men (O2b*) decreased to the 20 percents of all Goguryeo men. With the declining influence from china, Goguryeo men (44.5 percents O3 + 17.2 percents O2b*) rioted against china, and destroyed Lelang Commandery?

Baekje men, or Gojoseon men (44.5 percents O3 + 17.2 percents O2b*) crossed the sea, and colonized japan, and become 8% of Japanese men of korean genes (O2b*), and 20 percents of Japanese men of chinese genes(O3)?


C3, 8.8 percents of south Korean genes, were neither from Goguryeo or nor Gojoseon. Mongol invasions (AD1231-1270) added the C3 YDNA to modern South Koreans.​

Hypotheses on continental events and genetics:


C3 @ YDNA : male lineages @ original Gojoseon people? or Goguryeo people?
O2b* @ YDNA : male lineages @ from Jilin Province of China. So-called Korean haplogroup.
D4 @ mtDNA : female lineages @ dominant in south korean females from Amur river, or from Northeast China​

Hypothesis 1:
In the beginning, there were C3 carriers, who were original Gojoseon people of Korea. Later, it is destroyed by Han China, and colonized. Goguryeo, O2b* carriers, then destroyed Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) and free people from Han chinese colonization of Gojoseon, then they mated with Gojoseon females, with D4 mtDNAs, then formed the country and people of Korea. They eventually managed to cross the sea and settled in japanese islands.​

Hypothesis 2:
female lineages @ most korean females were from China, but later colonized by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) of 400 years han chinese rules, then most korean females had to survive by having chinese male partners? They eventually managed to cross the sea and settled in japanese islands.​

Hypothesis 3:
Some unknown natural disasters displaced O2b* carriers from Jilin to Korea, and then to Japan, and for some unknown reasons, only females were allowed to stay in korea?​

Hypothesis 4:
Koreans were mostly from china. But there were invaders from unknown tribes of O2b* in China, and colonized the residents, formed Gojoseon. But later, Lelang Commandery colonized 3/4 of korea, and displaced O2b* to the southernmost Korea. Goguryeo people, who were mostly northeast chinese, destroyed commandery, and established what is known as korea. They eventually managed to cross the sea and settled in japanese islands.​

There are many hypotheses made by korean people, but there are some keys to solve the mystery of korean migrations into japan...

  • There are opinions disputing that Goguryeo people was O2b* carrier or not.
  • Another agenda is whether Gojoseon people was C3 carrier or not.
  • There are opinions disputing that Gojoseon people were mixed with O2b* and O3, or C3.
  • Also, why did only females remain in Korea? It is surely enigmatic, why O2b* carriers were minority in modern day korean men, but D4 mtDNA carriers are dominant in modern day south korean women.

I finished this topic by posting Lelang Commandery's map image...
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9195/43512643.jpg
 
Last edited:
First of all, let me make some "disclaimers."
  • I don't have any more information than what I am submitting. I'm writing this comment anyway, but I don't think I can discuss this topic any further. If you have any additional questions (or if you have any opposite opinions), I probably cannot answer them.
  • I don't bother to make a reference list. The information I'm givin you is unsourced. If you want reliabile sources, please search for them yourself.
  • Most of the things discussed here are controversial even among professional researchers in this field, and I'm a complete amateur. I'd suggest you presume that there would be many wrong or inaccurate points in my comment. :) Anlyway, I'm more than happpy if I could help motivate you to study further.
  • I actually don't care about the origin of certain people. :)
Question is O2b1 is really Japanese gene? Are they borne in Korean peninsula or in Japan?
The original O2b is thought to have evolved in Southern China (or South East Asia). O2b1 is its subclade, which probably came to Japanese islands directly from China over the sea (and those formed a major group of Yayoi people). It is highly likely that O2b1 in Korean peninsula originated from immigrants from Japanese islands. (Currently, O2b is almost absent from most populations in China, though.)
What I don't really understand about O2b*, korean gene, is that only 17.2% of Korean males had this lineage, whereas females had supposedly more of these O2b* equivalents, D4 mtDNA. Then, what is the rest of 82.8% of the korean male lineages? And if women were D4 mtDNA , then this means that another group colonized this O2b* group?
Y-chromosome DNA and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) can never be treated in the same way. D4 mtDNA is not exactly an O2b* equivalent. It is just that those haplogroups happen to be able to describe similar genetic groups of people. Y-chromosome DNA sequences are much easier to mutate than those of mtDNA. In other words, mt-DNA haplogroups tend to remain unchanged, while Y-chromosome haplogroups have almost always several subclades.
Lelang commandery lasted more than 400 years of chinese rules in Korean peninsula, and it may be that ancient Koreans were all moved to the tiny edges of remaining peninsula, that probably implies the demise of Koreanic races at one point, or large demographic changes from O2b* into O3 and C3 by chinese invasions. Then, Goguryeo retook the peninsula, so there comes another demographic transformations adding more O2b?
It is currently more reasonable to assume that Lelang commandery consisted of a few Chinese dynasty people and a major population of Korean races in the subordinate classes. Although dynasties have always been genetically powerful, and thus O3 and C3 were added to the peninsula, you do not have to presuppose anything drastic as demographic changes in and after this period.
There are opinions disputing that Goguryeo people was O2b* carrier or not.
O2b* probably has a similar story as O2b1. The original O2b is thought to have evolved in Southern China (or South East Asia). O2b* is its transformed branch, which probably came to Korean peninsula directly from China. No wonder if Goguryeo people was O2b* carrier.
Another agenda is whether Gojoseon people was C3 carrier or not.
C3 is considered to have settled first in Sakhalin, and then, separately distributed into Japanese islands (via Hokkaido) and Korean peninsula (via Manchuria, Tungusic peoples). Gojoseon people may well have been C3 carrier, but that does not explain anything about migrations from Korean Peninsula to Japanese islands.
There are opinions disputing that Gojoseon people were mixed with O2b* and O3, or C3.
Maybe mixed with all of those three?
O2b*: Korean races in the subordinate classes
O3: Han Chinese (and other) in the dynasty classes
C3: Tungusic peoples and their descendants
Also, why did only females remain in Korea? It is surely enigmatic, why O2b* carriers were minority in modern day korean men, but D4 mtDNA carriers are dominant in modern day south korean women.
See above.
 
wow Thanks.😌

The original O2b is thought to have evolved in Southern China (or South East Asia). O2b1 is its subclade, which probably came to Japanese islands directly from China over the sea (and those formed a major group of Yayoi people). It is highly likely that O2b1 in Korean peninsula originated from immigrants from Japanese islands. (Currently, O2b is almost absent from most populations in China, though.)

Origin of O2b* from Jilin province of china was some korean poster's opinions...

O2b* was in china probably around 7000BC-12000BC?

If O2b* is uniquely korean, it has high probability of O2b* being the marker of Gojoseon people? Are O2b* carriers the most prolific people in ancient korea?

O3 is dominant YDNA marker in modern day koreans.. How did O3 carriers come to Korean Peninsula? There were already O2b* carriers in korea, so O3 carriers (closer to modern day chinese) colonized ancient koreans, to change the demography from dominantly O2b* into dominantly O3? When did that happen? Around ice age, or after the bronze age?

Are O2b1 from South China was transmitted to Japan through different routes (not korean peninsula) during ice age?

O2b* carriers fled from South China by some events or threats posed by a group of O3 carriers? Is it more likely human factors? natural disasters?

Why O2b* (uniquely korean gene) is so low (17.2 percents) in modern day korean males?

Why O2b* is so low (8 percents) in modern day japanese males?

How did O3 people mix with O2b*? through the war (like Ghingis Khan)? travel of people?

Is C3 in modern day koreans by Tungus invasions?

Are modern day koreans tungus people?

When korean identity began, and when so-called altaic korean started? How that altaics can influence japanese language and people?
 
Last edited:
With further feedbacks from this forum, and another forum,
I modified the proposed scenarios...

Scenario: Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers
Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) swept out Gojoseon men (O2b* @ YDNA), and mated with Gojoseon women (D4 @ mtDNA)? Gojoseon demography transformed from O2b* (uniquely korean gene ) into O3 (uniquely chinese gene). Goguryeo people (C3) came and took out the land from both Gojoseon and Lelang Commandery. Gojoseon men, subjugated and enslaved by Goguryeo, fled to Japan to become the 8 percents of present day Japanese (O2b*, uniquely korean), colonized Japan, and finally mixed with and assimilated into the primitive people of japan (D @ YDNA)..?​

Scenario: Goguryeo men are O2b* carriers
Gojoseon men (C3 @ YDNA, tungus) were colonized by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) for 400 years. Goguryeo men (O2b* @YDNA), originally from Jilin province of China, came and took control of Lelang Commandery (O3 @ YDNA) and progressed to subjugate/enslave C3 carriers (tungus), Mahan, Jinhan, Byeonhan men (C3 @ YDNA)? Later Goguryeo mixed with the han chinese (O3 @ YDNA) to form korean ethnic group (O2b* and O3). Enslaved and suppressed by Goguryeo, Baekje men crossed the sea, and become the 8 percents of present day Japanese (O2b*, uniquely korean gene), colonized Japan, and finally mixed and assimilated into the primitive jomon people (D @ YDNA)?​

Scenario: Goguryeo men and Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers, i.e., Goguryeo is a descendant of Gojoseon
At the founding of Goguryeo (BC37-668), Goguryeo people were already colonized by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313). Many Gojoseon women were mated with Han chinese men to survive the hardship of colonial rule. Majority of Goguryeo women were married with Han chinese men (O3), and original Goguryeo men (O2b*, uniquely korean gene) decreased to the 20 percents of all Goguryeo men. With the declining influence from china, Goguryeo men (44.5 percents O3 + 17.2 percents O2b*) rioted against china, and destroyed Lelang Commandery?

Baekje men, or Gojoseon men (44.5 percents O3 + 17.2 percents O2b*) crossed the sea, and colonized japan, and become 8 percents of Japanese men of korean genes (O2b*), and 20 percents of Japanese men of chinese genes(O3)?


C3, 8.8 percents of south Korean genes, were neither from Goguryeo or nor Gojoseon. Mongol invasions (AD1231-1270) added the C3 YDNA to modern South Koreans.​

Scenario: 40 percents of Japanese are sinitic, not altaic. O2b1 is borne in southern china.

O2b1 was initially borne in china. During Ice age, ancient chinese, O2b1 (uniquely japanese) and O3 (most common in chinese) carriers crossed the ice bridge to japanese islands, and bring the high civilization and technology to japan, and then mixed with the primitive jomons, to become the 20 percents of present-day japanese. Chinese further colonized the Korean peninsulas to add O3 gene stocks to Gojoseon and Goguryeo people. Baekje people, already sinisized by han chinese colonizations were 8 percents O2b* and 44.5 percents O3, then Baekje crossed the sea, and colonized japan to become the 8 percents of present-day japanese (O2b*, uniquely korean).

Scenario: 28 percents of Japanese are non-sinitic, altaic. O2b1 was borne in Jilin Province of China. (Not-mainstream. proposed by korean posters)

In ancient china, O2b1 people (uniquely japanese gene) were borne in Jilin province of china. O2b1 people dominated Korean peninsula, to enslave the oldcomer, O2b* carriers (uniquely korean gene). But successive migrations from China to Manchuria exterminated all O2b1 carriers in Manchuria, and then in Korean Peninsula, O3 people freed O2b* (uniquely korean gene) carriers from O2b1 group (uniquely japanese gene) . O3 killed almoost all O2b1 men, and only 8 percents (4 percents to 12 percents ) of modern day korean remained as O2b1 till this day, and the enslaved O2b* were assimilated into newly coming O3 group. Then O3 people progressed to invade japan, and successfully colonized japan to become 20 percents of present-day japanese (most common in chinese), and the remaining O2b1 fled to japan to escape slavery of O3 carriers to become 20 percents of present-day japanese (O2b1, uniquely japanese gene).



Y-chromosomal Binary Haplogroups in the Japanese Population
and their Relationship to 16 Y-STR Polymorphisms
Nonaka et al.​

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111...006.00343.x/pdf

South Korean:
  • O2b* - 17.2 percents (So-called uniquely Korean gene)
  • O2b1 - 12 percents (So-called uniquely Japanese gene)
  • O3 - 44.5 percents

Japanese:
  • O2b* - around 8 percents (So-called uniquely Korean gene)
  • O2b1 - around 20 percents (So-called uniquely Japanese gene)
  • O3 - around 20 percents
 
Last edited:
Haplogroup O2b1
Time of origin 7,870 [95% CI 5,720–12,630] years ago[8]
Place of origin perhaps the Japanese archipelago[8]
Ancestor O2b
Defining mutations 47z
Highest frequencies
Japanese 24 percents [12] (19%[3]-25%[8][9]),
Okinawans 17 percents [13] (11%[8]-20%[9]),​
Koreans 8 percents[14] (4%[8][11]-12%[15]),
Manchus 7 percents[16] (0%[11][8][15]-19%[4])

How do you explain the large frequency of O2b1 in Okinawan?
How do you think about the origin of O2b1 rooted in Yangtze river, and crossed the frozen sea to Japan during Ice Age?

When was O2b1 split from O2b*?
7,870 years ago..
 
Haplogroup O2b1
Time of origin 7,870 [95% CI 5,720–12,630] years ago[8]
Place of origin perhaps the Japanese archipelago[8]
Ancestor O2b
Defining mutations 47z
Highest frequencies
Japanese 24%[12] (19%[3]-25%[8][9]),
Okinawans 17%[13] (11%[8]-20%[9]),
Koreans 8%[14] (4%[8][11]-12%[15]),
Manchus 7%[16] (0%[11][8][15]-19%[4]

A subclade of Haplogroup O2b, namely Haplogroup O2b1-47z, is found with high frequency among the Yamato people and Ryukyuan populations of Japan. Haplogroup O2b1 has been detected in approximately 22% of all males who speak a Japonic language, while it has not been found at all among a total of twenty Ainu males whose Y-DNA has been sampled in two genetic studies.[8][17]

Based on the STR haplotype diversity within Haplogroup O2b1, it has been estimated that this haplogroup began to experience a population expansion among the proto-Japanese of approximately 4,000 years ago, which makes it a good candidate for a marker of the intrusion of a Neolithic population of the prehistoric Korean Peninsula into the southwestern parts of the Japanese Archipelago.​

However, the parent haplogroup, O2b*, is also found among Japanese, although at a relatively low frequency of approximately 4%[15] to 8%[9], and the descendant haplogroup O2b1 is found only with low frequency among samples of modern Koreans, which suggests the possibility that Haplogroup O2b* might have colonized the Japanese Archipelago much earlier, with the subgroup O2b1 subsequently evolving within the proto-Japanese-Ryukyuan population of the western parts of the archipelago.​

Below is the list of korean posters' claims on the origin of O2b* (uniquely korean gene) and O2b1 (uniquely japanese gene).

  • Koreans is not a part of Longshan culture.
  • Koreans had two separate unmixed, tribes of each being purely O2b1 or O2b*.
  • O2b1 was borne in Gojoseon, or Chaoxian tribe.
  • O2b* was also Gojoseon marker.
  • This is as an axle of a car whereof left and right wheel RPM are differentiated. I think those who remain in Highland reproduce children less than who make
    that in fertile Lowland. Hence I suppose that Gaoyi might have been O2b and Liangyi O2b1.
  • No Gojoseon as a state/nation existed, but Chaoxian Tribe, Highland Tribe.
  • I'm imagining Tangun Korea was a part of Ceramic Comb Pottery, Bear Cult Zone that stretched from Pacific to Atlantic Ocean.
  • 東夷族系向東北的遷徙,客觀上為中國東北地區的開發和建設作出了卓越的歷史貢獻。
    就其本身而言,則又進行了局部地區的演變與融合,
    最終便發展成了數量眾多的具有相同族源和相近文化的各個民族。

Scenario: (charlypanda's claims that Koreans had two separate unmixed, tribes of each being purely O2b1 or O2b*.)
There was no country called Gojoseon, as it had no written records but Gojoseon, or Chaoxian Tribes, were actually two separate tribes, O2b* Gaoyi, O2b1 Liangyi. Two tribes did not mix, thus one of them reproduced more and another reproduced less. Before the Lelang Commandery's enslavement of ancient Koreans, those tribes were each 17.2% (O2b*) and 8% O2b1 or 2:1 ratio in Korea. When Han chinese, O3, came down, and colonized the Korean peninsula, Han chinese men, numerically superior, soon overtook the whole of korean peninsula, thus dramatic demographic transformation from O2b* and O2b1 into O3. For some unknown reasons, koreans who fled to japan islands to escape slavery, were changing demography, thus, mysteriously ratio transformed from 2:1 to 1:3 (O2b*:O2b1), and became 28% of present-day japanese. However the rest of Gojoseon men were enslaved, and had less opportunity to reproduce, thus there are only 17% O2b*, and 8% O2b1 left in peninsula. The rest of 75% of korean population are either chinese or mongols who invaded korea possibly by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313).

There were no historical records of korean inflow to okinawa, but for some reasons, there are O2b1 in Okinawa, which must come from Korean peninsula to make sense. Perhaps, ancient koreans invented large ships, and travelled to Okinawa of Japan, much further away from Japanese mainislands?​



Scenario: (O2b1 carriers were first borne 7,870 years ago, O2b1 carriers crossed the sea to japan to become the 20% of present day japanese )
Since 6000BC, there were wide distributions of O2b1 in Manchuria, Korean peninsula, and Japanese archipelago. At 2000BC, japanese had already had O2b1 jomon people in western Japan. However O2b* and O2b1 dominance did not continue long. When Lelang commandery colonized and enslaved korean peninsula. Korean women had to mate with Chinese men (O3) rather than O2b* or O2b1. Chinese men had more chances to reproduce with korean women, and thus, massive transformations from a nation of purely (100%) O2b* and O2b1 ethnics to the nation of more than 70% of men to be han chinese origin. Korean men who tried to escape the enslavement became and contributed to the 8% of present day japanese of uniquely korean origin.

O2b1 was probably from chinese mainlands or taiwan, geographically close to okinawa, or O2b1 was borne in japan, as geneticists claimed.
 
Last edited:
Summary of Scenario mostly proposed by korean posters, .. comments made by me.
You all helped me to come to this!!

Scenario: Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers
Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) swept out Gojoseon men (O2b* @ YDNA), and mated with Gojoseon women (D4 @ mtDNA)? Gojoseon demography transformed from O2b* into O3. Goguryeo people (C3) came and took out the land from both Gojoseon and Lelang Commandery. Gojoseon men, subjugated and enslaved by Goguryeo, fled to Japan to become the 8% of present day Japanese, colonized Japan, and finally mixed with and assimilated into the primitive people of japan (D @ YDNA)..?​

Scenario: Goguryeo men are O2b* carriers
Gojoseon men (C3 @ YDNA) were colonized by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) for 400 years. Goguryeo men (O2b* @YDNA), originally from Jilin province of China, came and took control of Lelang Commandery (O3 @ YDNA) and progressed to subjugate/enslave C3 carriers, Mahan, Jinhan, Byeonhan men (C3 @ YDNA)? Later Goguryeo mixed with the han chinese (O3 @ YDNA) to form korean ethnic group (O2b* and O3). Enslaved and suppressed by Goguryeo, Baekje, crossed the sea, and become the 8% of present day Japanese, colonized Japan, and finally mixed and assimilated into the primitive jomon people (D @ YDNA)?​

Scenario: Goguryeo men and Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers, i.e., Goguryeo is a descendant of Gojoseon
At the founding of Goguryeo (BC37-668), Goguryeo people were already colonized by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313). Many Gojoseon women were mated with Han chinese men to survive the hardship of colonial rule. Majority of Goguryeo women were married with Han chinese men (O3), and original Goguryeo men (O2b*) decreased to the 20% of all Goguryeo men. With the declining influence from china, Goguryeo men (44.5% O3 + 17.2% O2b*) rioted against china, and destroyed Lelang Commandery?

Baekje men, or Gojoseon men (44.5% O3 + 17.2% O2b*) crossed the sea, and colonized japan, and become 8% of Japanese men of korean genes (O2b*), and 20% of Japanese men of chinese genes(O3)?


C3, 8.8% of south Korean genes, were neither from Goguryeo or nor Gojoseon. Mongol invasions (AD1231-1270) added the C3 YDNA to modern South Koreans.​

Scenario: 40% of Japanese are sinitic, not altaic. O2b1 is borne in southern china.

O2b1 was initially borne in china. During Ice age, ancient chinese, O2b1 and O3 carriers crossed the ice bridge to japanese islands, and bring the high civilization and technology to japan, and then mixed with the primitive jomons, to become the 20% of present-day japanese. Chinese further colonized the Korean peninsulas to add O3 gene stocks to Gojoseon and Goguryeo people. Baekje people, already sinisized by han chinese colonizations were 8% O2b* and 44.5% O3, then Baekje crossed the sea, and colonized japan to become the 8% of present-day japanese (uniquely korean).

Scenario: 28% of Japanese are non-sinitic, altaic. O2b1 was borne in Jilin Province of China. (Not-mainstream. proposed by korean posters)

In ancient china, O2b1 people were borne in Jilin province of china. O2b1 people dominated Korean peninsula, to enslave the oldcomer, O2b* carriers (uniquely koreans). But successive migrations from China to Manchuria exterminated all O2b1 carriers in Manchuria, and then in Korean Peninsula, O3 people freed O2b* (uniquely korean gene) carriers from O2b1 group. O3 killed almoost all O2b1 men, and only 8% (4% to 12%) of modern day korean remained as O2b1 till this day, and the enslaved O2b* were assimilated into newly coming O3 group. Them O3 people progressed to invade japan, and successfully colonized japan to become 20% of present-day japanese (most common in chinese), and the remaining O2b1 fled to japan to escape slavery of O3 carriers to become 20% of present-day japanese (O2b1, uniquely japanese).


Scenario: (ancient Koreans had two separate unmixed, tribes of each being purely O2b1 or O2b*.)
There was no country called Gojoseon, as it had no written records but Gojoseon, or Chaoxian Tribes, were actually two separate tribes, O2b* Gaoyi, O2b1 Liangyi. Two tribes did not mix, thus one of them reproduced more and another reproduced less. Before the Lelang Commandery's enslavement of ancient Koreans, those tribes were each 17.2% (O2b*) and 8% O2b1 or 2:1 ratio in Korea. When Han chinese, O3, came down, and colonized the Korean peninsula, Han chinese men, numerically superior, soon overtook the whole of korean peninsula, thus dramatic demographic transformation from O2b* and O2b1 into O3. For this change of 100% O2b groups to O3, one must think that almost all korean women in the chinese present areas mated, or married with han chinese men, to effect the decrease of male lineages of korean men in korean peninsula from 100% O2b to 25% O2b.

For some unknown reasons, koreans who fled to japan islands to escape slavery, were changing demography, thus, mysteriously ratio transformed from 2:1 to 1:3 (O2b*:O2b1), and became 28% of present-day japanese. However the rest of Gojoseon men were enslaved, and had less opportunity to reproduce, thus there are only 17% O2b*, and 8% O2b1 left in peninsula. The rest of 75% of korean population are either chinese or mongols who invaded korea possibly by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313).

There were no historical records of korean inflow to okinawa, but for some reasons, there are O2b1 in Okinawa, which must come from Korean peninsula to make sense. Perhaps, ancient koreans invented large ships, and travelled to Okinawa of Japan, much further away from Japanese mainislands?​

Scenario: (O2b1 carriers were first borne 7,870 years ago, O2b1 carriers crossed the sea to japan to become the 20% of present day japanese )
Since 6000BC, there were wide distributions of O2b1 in Manchuria, Korean peninsula, and Japanese archipelago. At 2000BC, japanese had already had O2b1 jomon people in western Japan, and O2b1 successfully colonized ancient japan. However on the continent, O2b* and O2b1 dominance did not continue long. When Lelang commandery colonized and enslaved korean peninsula. Korean women had to mate with Chinese men (O3) rather than O2b* or O2b1. Chinese men had more chances to reproduce with korean women, and thus, massive transformations from a nation of purely (100%) O2b* and O2b1 ethnics to the nation of more than 70% of men to be han chinese origin. Korean men who tried to escape the enslavement became and contributed to the 8% of present day japanese of uniquely korean origin.

O2b1 was probably from chinese mainlands (Yangtze) or taiwan, geographically close to okinawa, or O2b1 was borne in japan, as mainstream geneticists claimed?

Up till now, scenario supposed that O2b was borne in Korea, or Manchuria.

It is clear that 44.5% of koreans are O3 carriers (most common in chinese), and 20% of Japanese are O3 carriers. (most common in chinese)

Why not Yayoi, groups of people who brought to civilization to japan, 20% of present-day japanese, was chinese?
O2 was probably primitive tribes of south east asian people who migrated north.
Original Gojoseon people, Goguryeo people could be O3 carriers (north east asian)?
 
There are some newly proposed hypotheses from korean posters, who claimed to be japanese.

  • O2b genes were born in Bryat Mongolia.
  • Ancient mogols were korean, O2b* and O2b1.
  • Yamato Clan was Korean.
  • Japanese emperor is/was korean.
  • Dongyi was Korean.

Additionally, to support the origin of O2b* and O2b1 in Bryat Mongolia, we need to give a new constraint

  • Koreans cannot be south east asian ancestry.
  • Manchurian women were not attracted to Manchurian men (O2b* and O2b1), effecting the demise of O2b1 in Manchuria, and very low frequency of O2b* in Manchuria.
  • Ancient koreans dominated a whole of china, and even colonized vietnam, contributing some O2 gene pools to south east asia.
  • Mainstream geneticists hypothesis was all wrong. O2b1 YDNA was born in korea or in Mongolia, not in Japanese archipelago.

Scenario: Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers (Charlypanda)
Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) swept out Gojoseon men (O2b* @ YDNA), and mated with Gojoseon women (D4 @ mtDNA)? Gojoseon demography transformed from O2b* into O3. Goguryeo people (C3) came and took out the land from both Gojoseon and Lelang Commandery. Gojoseon men, subjugated and enslaved by Goguryeo, fled to Japan to become the 8 percents of present day Japanese, colonized Japan, and finally mixed with and assimilated into the primitive people of japan (D @ YDNA)..?​

Scenario: Goguryeo men are O2b* carriers (Charlypanda)
Gojoseon men (C3 @ YDNA) were colonized by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) for 400 years. Goguryeo men (O2b* @YDNA), originally from Jilin province of China, came and took control of Lelang Commandery (O3 @ YDNA) and progressed to subjugate/enslave C3 carriers, Mahan, Jinhan, Byeonhan men (C3 @ YDNA)? Later Goguryeo mixed with the han chinese (O3 @ YDNA) to form korean ethnic group (O2b* and O3). Enslaved and suppressed by Goguryeo, Baekje, crossed the sea, and become the 8 percents of present day Japanese, colonized Japan, and finally mixed and assimilated into the primitive jomon people (D @ YDNA)?​

Scenario: Goguryeo men and Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers, i.e., Goguryeo is a descendant of Gojoseon (Charlypanda)
At the founding of Goguryeo (BC37-668), Goguryeo people were already colonized by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313). Many Gojoseon women were mated with Han chinese men to survive the hardship of colonial rule. Majority of Goguryeo women were married with Han chinese men (O3), and original Goguryeo men (O2b*) decreased to the 20 percents of all Goguryeo men. With the declining influence from china, Goguryeo men (44.5% O3 + 17.2% O2b*) rioted against china, and destroyed Lelang Commandery?

Baekje men, or Gojoseon men (44.5% O3 + 17.2% O2b*) crossed the sea, and colonized japan, and become 8% of Japanese men of korean genes (O2b*), and 20 percents of Japanese men of chinese genes(O3)?


C3, 8.8% of south Korean genes, were neither from Goguryeo or nor Gojoseon. Mongol invasions (AD1231-1270) added the C3 YDNA to modern South Koreans.​

Scenario: 40% of Japanese are sinitic, not altaic. O2b1 is borne in southern china.

O2b1 was initially borne in china. During Ice age, ancient chinese, O2b1 and O3 carriers crossed the ice bridge to japanese islands, and bring the high civilization and technology to japan, and then mixed with the primitive jomons, to become the 20 percents of present-day japanese. Chinese further colonized the Korean peninsulas to add O3 gene stocks to Gojoseon and Goguryeo people. Baekje people, already sinisized by han chinese colonizations were 8 percents O2b* and 44.5 percents O3, then Baekje crossed the sea, and colonized japan to become the 8 percents of present-day japanese (uniquely korean).

Scenario: 28 percents of Japanese are non-sinitic, altaic. O2b1 was borne in Jilin Province of China. (Not-mainstream. proposed by korean posters, Charlypanda)

In ancient china, O2b1 people were borne in Jilin province of china. O2b1 people dominated Korean peninsula, to enslave the oldcomer, O2b* carriers (uniquely koreans). But successive migrations from China to Manchuria exterminated all O2b1 carriers in Manchuria, and then in Korean Peninsula, O3 people freed O2b* (uniquely korean gene) carriers from O2b1 group. O3 killed almoost all O2b1 men, and only 8 percents (4 percetns to 12 percents) of modern day korean remained as O2b1 till this day, and the enslaved O2b* were assimilated into newly coming O3 group. Them O3 people progressed to invade japan, and successfully colonized japan to become 20 percents of present-day japanese (most common in chinese), and the remaining O2b1 fled to japan to escape slavery of O3 carriers to become 20 percents of present-day japanese (O2b1, uniquely japanese).


Scenario (Charlypanda): (ancient Koreans had two separate unmixed, tribes of each being purely O2b1 or O2b*.)
There was no country called Gojoseon, as it had no written records but Gojoseon, or Chaoxian Tribes, were actually two separate tribes, O2b* Gaoyi, O2b1 Liangyi. Two tribes did not mix, thus one of them reproduced more and another reproduced less. Before the Lelang Commandery's enslavement of ancient Koreans, those tribes were each 17.2 percents (O2b*) and 8 percents O2b1 or 2:1 ratio in Korea. When Han chinese, O3, came down, and colonized the Korean peninsula, Han chinese men, numerically superior, soon overtook the whole of korean peninsula, thus dramatic demographic transformation from O2b* and O2b1 into O3. For this change of 100% O2b groups to O3, one must think that almost all korean women in the chinese present areas mated, or married with han chinese men, to effect the decrease of male lineages of korean men in korean peninsula from 100 percents O2b to 25 percents O2b.

For some unknown reasons, koreans who fled to japan islands to escape slavery, were changing demography, thus, mysteriously ratio transformed from 2:1 to 1:3 (O2b*:O2b1), and became 28% of present-day japanese. However the rest of Gojoseon men were enslaved, and had less opportunity to reproduce, thus there are only 17 percents O2b*, and 8% O2b1 left in peninsula. The rest of 75 percents of korean population are either chinese or mongols who invaded korea possibly by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313).

There were no historical records of korean inflow to okinawa, but for some reasons, there are O2b1 in Okinawa, which must come from Korean peninsula to make sense. Perhaps, ancient koreans invented large ships, and travelled to Okinawa of Japan, much further away from Japanese mainislands?​

Scenario: (O2b1 carriers were first borne 7,870 years ago, O2b1 carriers crossed the sea to japan to become the 20 percents of present day japanese )
Since 6000BC, there were wide distributions of O2b1 in Manchuria, Korean peninsula, and Japanese archipelago. At 2000BC, japanese had already had O2b1 jomon people in western Japan, and O2b1 successfully colonized ancient japan. However on the continent, O2b* and O2b1 dominance did not continue long. When Lelang commandery colonized and enslaved korean peninsula. Korean women had to mate with Chinese men (O3) rather than O2b* or O2b1. Chinese men had more chances to reproduce with korean women, and thus, massive transformations from a nation of purely (100 percents) O2b* and O2b1 ethnics to the nation of more than 70 percents of men to be han chinese origin. Korean men who tried to escape the enslavement became and contributed to the 8 percents of present day japanese of uniquely korean origin.

O2b1 was probably from chinese mainlands (Yangtze) or taiwan, geographically close to okinawa, or O2b1 was borne in japan, as mainstream geneticists claimed?

Scenario (Charlypanda): Ancient Mogols were koreans. There was korean civilization in Lake Baikal before the arrival of mongols. Koreans, O2b and O2b*, cannot be south east asian.

In unknown periods or long time ago, there were original O2b* carriers born in Lake Baikal, Beiyi. Beiyi went down and colonized the Manchuria. Supposedly, there was a highland in Manchuria, where many koreans recided. For some unknown reasons, ancient koreans were all expelled or disappeared from Mongolia, demise of O2b* and O2b1 in Mongolia.

However, koreans dominated ancient china, and even extended to south east asia, colonized vietnam, and brought down rice culture to vietnam. Koreans, O2b, contributed a few percents of korean genes to vietnamese primitives.

In Manchuria, Han chinese commandery ruled parts of Manchuria. Surprisingly, even though han chinese dynasty did not rule a whole of Manchuria, Han chinese succeeded in exterminating all O2b1 carriers, and then most of O2b* carriers. Perhaps, han chinese men (O3 YDNA) were attractive, and manchuria women just ditched korean men (O2b1, O2b*) without any economic or political necessities.

In korea, Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) invaded the Gojoseon, and destroyed Gojoseon. Gojoseon women mostly reproduced with han chinese men (O3 carriers), and the percentage of O2b* dramatically decreased to 17.2 percents. Slavery continued for 400 years, which transformed korean into mostly sinitic gene stocks.

Scenario (Charlypanda): Founder of Yamato Clan is Koreans, Dongyi. Not Buryat. Go-joseon, and Goguryeo people are not sinitic, and carried O2b* to Japan.

In ancient time, Orignal koreans, O2b* and O2b1 carriers, emerged out of nowhere or, in Lake Baikal. These original koreans settled/colonized Manchuria, and then colonized Korean peninsula. Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313), or other han chinese commandery came to the part of Manchuria, and almost all manchurian women married or reproduced with han chinese men, thus very O2b* genes in Manchuria left, and O2b1 was erased from all Manchurian gene stocks. One wonders why manchurian were exterminated even though some of them were not ruled by han chinese dynasties, probably advanced chinese were attractive to Manchurian women, thus Manchurian men of O2b* and O2b1, could not find the partners.

However, koreans dominated ancient china, and even extended to south east asia, colonized vietnam, and brought down rice culture to vietnam. Koreans, O2b, contributed a few percents of korean genes to vietnamese primitives.

In Korean peninsula, there were 400 years of slavery of koreans by han chinese, effecting the decrease of 75 percents of korean men of O2b* and O2b1 carriers, and emergence of chinese genes (O3) in korea, began to dominate in korea. Enslaved people included Goguryeo people, and those Goguryeo men, who were mostly chinese gene stocks, went down and captured the territory of weakened han chinese dynasty. In these time, O2b1 were almost accidentally erased from the gene stocks of korean.

In 100-200 AD, subjugated Gojoseon people fled to Japan, who were the descendants of the ancient koreans, who ruled Mongolia, for some unknown periods, or very very long time before the Mongolian came to Mongolia, they became Yamato clan of japan. Therefore, Emperor of japan must be koreans who enslaved primitive jomon people of japan. Currently, O2b* and O2b1 carriers were left with 28 percents of present day japanese.

For some unknown reasons, koreans (O2b* and O2b1) who fled to japan islands to escape slavery, were changing demography, thus, mysteriously ratio transformed from 2:1 to 1:3 (O2b*:O2b1), and became 28% of present-day japanese. However the rest of Gojoseon men were enslaved, and had less opportunity to reproduce, thus there are only 17 percents O2b*, and 8 percents O2b1 left in peninsula. The rest of 75 percents of korean population are either chinese or mongols who invaded korea possibly by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313).

There were no historical records of korean inflow to okinawa, but for some reasons, there are O2b1 in Okinawa, which must come from Korean peninsula to make sense. Perhaps, ancient koreans ventured to flee to Okinawa.
 
Is Korean sinitic or altaic?​
There are only 17.2% who are uniquely koreans in south korea. Probably less in North Korea
44.5% of koreans are O3 carriers (most common in modern day chinese)

Modern day japanese are largely sinitic. I heard O2b1 (uniquely japanese gene) was borne in China. O3 (chinese) percentage is much higher than O2b* (uniquely korean gene).

O2 genes were also found in Southern china, Indonesia, Malaysia, and Vietnam.
 
caster51
Why don't you read the posts submitted by korean posters?

By charlypanda
Nice to meet you, agnoni. Passing by having noticed above phrase, I think that Goguryeo destroyed 4 Commanderies. However, O2b1 were native Gojoseon, mainly. Gogryeo, I think, had more O2b than O2b1.I got an impression that Old Korea or Gojoseon was once an altaic nation with ruling Yin emigre called Yizi. Gojoseon disc-formatted the peninsular into 3 parts, Mahan, Bianhan, Chenhan. Then Former Han pushed them to southern end part of the peninsular, copied and pasted and formatted northern part into 4 commendaries in accordance with ethnic status quo of that time. Han reformated them from time to time.The real Koreans or Gojoseon Koreans inhabitated more in southernmost 3 Han (in sense of present Dehan) regions rather than in 4 commanderies where Mongol-Manchurian pastoralists and Chinese settlers were dominant.Then 4 commanderies were destroyed by Goguryeo and 3 Native Hans got full independence.
No, Goguryeo people were not the member of Gojoseon, but they joined to them as Goguryeo after Goguryeo destroyed Lelang Commandery.
By crownjewel
Regarding the origin of O2b I see two possibilities.
First, it has a Manchu-Siberia-Koguryeo origin and was brought to Japan during Yayoi period.
Second, it originated in SE Asia and was brought to Korea via Vietnam.
So, did Koreans bring O2b to Vietnam or the other way round?
There are some records showing immigration of Vietnamese to Korea in Koryeo period,
but Koryeo period is long after Baekje period, when Koreans supposedly brought O2b to Japan.
Another possibility is that Baekje, while they had advanced naval technology and not only had influence on Japan
but also on Chinese coastal regions, went as far as Vietnam and brought O2b to Vietnam. But then, there have to be
records showing at least some Baekje influence in Vietnam.
I'm extremely curious and if somebody has info, please share.
By Charlypanda
Though I have no enough evidence, a possibility cannot be excluded that O2b/O2b1 was borne around 7870-6300 BP in somewhere in between birthplaces of O2a and Jilin Province, thereafter migrated to Jilin Province to develope Zhenxing-Xinkailiu-Boisman Cultures. Geneflow or migration to Korea and Japan might take place in Lower Yinggeling Culture when they got a chance of import of Jomonese obsidians from Tsushima strait region.
By agnoni
Goguryeo people is not korean....?
So you said O2b carriers are in samhan.
Neither han chinese nor Goguryeo people did not add O2b, but those who fled from Han chinese colonizations were korean?
O2b in korean is 14 percents to 33 percents. My question is where the rest of 77 percents to 86 percents of modern korean people came from? Why are korean genes are minor in Korea?
Lelang commandery lasted more than 400 years of chinese rules in Korean peninsula, and it may be that ancient Koreans were all moved to the tiny edges of remaining peninsula, that probably implies the demise of Koreanic races at one point, or large demographic changes from O2b into O3 and N by chinese invasions. Then, Goguryeo retook the peninsula, so there comes another demographic transformations adding more O2b?
43512643ddd-1.jpg

Or, it may be that Goguryeo did not have O2b at all, and O2b, 14%-33% of Koreans are fully accounted for by the people who survived the Han rules of Korea?
By charlypanda
Goguryeo people were not in history when Gojoseon was established. O2b1 is more likely in Gojoseon, sedantary agrarian land than in arid steppe land as Goguryeo was. However, I think O2b/O2b1's homeland was present day Yonbyon Automonous Region of Jilin Province and at the time of Tangun they
were not so much in mainland Korea than C3. O2b1 was gifted in paddy rice farming at waterfront than millet Chinese farmers. They might have joined Jizi Korea from the beginning, but major joining took place at Chundo in 4-3 centuries BC.
By agnoni
If Goguryeo people is O2b carrier, how did they carry O2b to Japanese islands?
There are more D4 marker carriers than O2b carriers.
O2b @ YDNA : male lineages @ 14%-33% of south korean population
D4 @ mtDNA : female lineages @ dominant in south korean population​
If Goguryeo people is O2b carriers, then Goguryeo people should be colonized or conquered prior to taking back Korean Peninsula from Lelang Commandery.
male lineages @ 67%-86% of south korean population are from Han chinese rule, Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) ?
or
female lineages @ most korean females are remnants of original korean people whose mate carried O2b, but later colonized by Lelang Commandery, then most korean females had to survive by having chinese male partners?​
By agnoni
You mean that O2b is not korean dna marker? If C3 is really real korean gene, then there are not much original koreans of Dangun's and Gojoseon's time left in present-day korea....
O2b is spread before Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) during 400 years of rule on korea?​
Then, O2b carriers fled to southernmost korea from Lelang Commandery?​
Question now is that O2b carriers are korean ethnics, who are minority in korea now if including O2b non-existen north korea, while others are either from Lelang Commandery and Goguryeo, who are not korean initially, but added some gene stocks to modern korean people.
And C3 carriers were colonized and assimilated by unknown tribes who brought O2b to Korea?
There are more D4 marker carriers than O2b carriers.

C3 @ YDNA : male lineages @ 11% of south korean males, original Gojoseon people, who were colonized by O2b
O2b @ YDNA : male lineages @ 14%-33% of south korean males from Jilin Province not present in Goguryeo nor in Gojoseon
D4 @ mtDNA : female lineages @ dominant in south korean females from Amur river, or from Northeast China​
In the beginning, there were C3 carriers, who were original Gojoseon people of Korea. Later, it is destroyed by Han China, and colonized. Goguryeo, O2b carriers, then destroyed Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) and free people from Han chinese colonization of Gojoseon, then they mated with Gojoseon females, with D1 and D4 mtDNAs, then formed the country and people of Korea​
from natsuman
or
female lineages @ most korean females were from China, but later colonized by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) of 400 years han chinese rules, then most korean females had to survive by having chinese male partners?​
or
Some unknown natural disasters displaced O2b carriers from Jilin to Korea, and then to Japan, and for some unknown reasons, females were allowed to stay in korea? But most men are displaced into the southermost parts of Korea​
from charlypanda
or
Koreans were mostly from china. But there was a invader from unknown tribals of O2b in China, and colonized the residents, formed Gojoseon. But later, Lelang Commandery colonized 3/4 of korea, and displaced O2b to the southernmost Korea. Goguryeo people, who were mostly northeast chinese, destroyed commandery, and established what is known as korea.​
By crownjewel
I think Gojoseon people and Han people were distinct.
After Han people defeated Gojoseon, Gojoseon people fled to Jin in the southern part of the peninsula.
There they formed Goguryeo and defeated the Lelang commanderie.
Gojoseon people had O2b --> fled to Southern part (Jin) ---> formed Goguryeo ---> defeated Lelang

I have a question to agnoni.
How can females and males have a different lineage?

Let's say I have a son and a daughter. How is it possible that they have a different lineage?
By agnoni
mtDNA inherits from females to females, mother to daughter.
YDNA inherits from males to males, father to son.
How about C3...? Are C3 part of orignal makeups of Gojoseon?
O2b is korean DNA?
By crownjewel
But how can Korean females come from China and the males from Mongolia?
By agnoni
No, Korean men come from China, females from Gojoseon.

Just like Genghis Khan conquered the world.

http://anthropology.net/2007/05/21/genghis...an-populations/



It has been hypothesized that about 16 million people have some of his genetic make up. To test this hypothesis, researchers investigated Y-chromosomes with representatives of 18 nations of Northern Eurasia.​

There are historical events that make Han chinese, conqueror of the Korean Peninsula for 400 years like Genghis Khan.

Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313)​

By crownjewel
Korean men and women both come from Gojoseon.
By natsuman
I believe Korean O2b were lineages of early hunter-gatherers in Northeast Asia. After Chinese farmers (maybe mainly O3) brought agriculture to Korea, O2b became farmers and started to expand, furthermore, O2b crossed the sea to meet Japan.
It's all right. I tend to think that Gojoseon people are mixed populations of early hunter-gatherers (O2b+C3+...) and farmers from China (O3+C3+...).
By crownjewel
I agree. But I'd like to know who brought O2b to Gojoseon people.
By agnoni
Then, Goguryeo people are not korean? Are Goguryeo people O3 carriers?
O2b was minor, and O3 major in modern day korean demography, so how this explains the current koreans?
By agnoni
Three question...

Who was Gojoseon people? original O2b carriers? hunter-gatherers? nomads?

Who was Goguryeo people? O3 carriers? O2b carriers? hunter-gatherers? nomads?

What happened to the O2b, it is now minority in Korea, why they decreased proportionally in population?
By agnoni
South Korean:
  • O2b - 17.2%
  • O21 - 12%
  • O3 - 44.5%

O2b may be much less in north korea...
Also, this figure is the one of the study with higher proportion of O2b.

Japanese:
  • O2b - around 8%
  • O2b1 - around 20%
  • O3 - around 20%

Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) gave the O3 carriers to half of South Korean, or even more of North Korean?
Then, O3 was brought to Japan through Korean peninsula
By natsuman
Maybe O2b originated in Northeast Asia, possibly near or in Korea, this is still uncertain.

I think O3 first met O2b in Northeast Asia, such as Manchuria or Korea, but not in China.
By natsuman
By agnoni
O2b (or O2b*) is 17.2% of south korean. And, O3 is 44.5% of south korean.
C3 is 8.8% of south korean.

Scenario: Gojoseon men are O2b carriers

Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) swept out Gojoseon men (O2b* @ YDNA), and mated with Gojoseon women (D4 @ mtDNA)? Gojoseon demography transformed from O2b* into O3. Goguryeo people (C3) came and took out the land from both Gojoseon and Lelang Commandery. Gojoseon men, subjugated and enslaved by Goguryeo, fled to Japan to become the 8% of present day Japanese, colonized Japan, and finally mixed with and assimilated into the primitive people of japan (D @ YDNA)..?​

or

Scenario: Goguryeo men are O2b carriers

Gojoseon men (C3 @ YDNA) were colonized by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) for 400 years. Goguryeo men (O2b* @YDNA), originally from Jilin province of China, came and took control of Lelang Commandery (O3 @ YDNA) and progressed to subjugate/enslave C3 carriers, Mahan, Jinhan, Byeonhan men (C3 @ YDNA)? Later Goguryeo mixed with the han chinese (O3 @ YDNA) to form korean ethnic group (O2b* and O3). Enslaved and suppressed by Goguryeo, Baekje, crossed the sea, and become the 8% of present day Japanese, colonized Japan, and finally mixed and assimilated into the primitive jomon people (D @ YDNA)?​
By crownjewel
I'd say that both Gojoseon and Goguryeo people carried O2b.

Since at the time Gojoseon existed, no Goguryeo existed.
Goguryeo was founded after Gojoseon collapsed.
By agnoni
Goguryeo people are the sub-trees of Gojoseon?

At the founding of Goguryeo (BC37-668), Goguryeo people were colonized
by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313). Many women were mated with Han chinese
men to survive the hardship of colonial rule. Majority of Goguryeo women were married with Han chinese men (O3), and
many original Goguryeo men (O2b*) decreased to the 20% of all Goguryeo men?

With the declining influence from china, Goguryeo men (44.5% O3 + 17.2% O2b*)
rioted against china, and destroyed Lelang Commandery?

Gojoseon men (44.5% O3 + 17.2% O2b*) crossed the sea, and colonized japan, and become 8% of Japanese men of korean genes, and
20% of Japanese men of chinese genes?
By agnoni
Another question is origin of C3 in south korean.
Is it from Mongol invasions (AD1231-1270)?


The discussion continued. But did you get the point?
 
Interesting story..

Please note O2b1 is mutated marker from O2b.
O3 also have series of different streams, not all O3 markers are dominant in Chinese males.

Using y-Chromosome markers to explain the origins of each different ethnicity is not accurate this is why we also must use mt-DNA and autosomal DNA analysis.

If you guys have visited geneticists and wanting to find your ancestral trace, then they will collect yDNA, mtDNA and autosomal DNA from your sample.

Han Chinese yDNA marker is O3d (aka O3a4), this marker is mostly absent from Japanese/Koreans. But abundant in Chinese.
 
Do majority of korean have chinese genes?

Interesting story..

Please note O2b1 is mutated marker from O2b.
O3 also have series of different streams, not all O3 markers are dominant in Chinese males.

Using y-Chromosome markers to explain the origins of each different ethnicity is not accurate this is why we also must use mt-DNA and autosomal DNA analysis.

If you guys have visited geneticists and wanting to find your ancestral trace, then they will collect yDNA, mtDNA and autosomal DNA from your sample.

Han Chinese yDNA marker is O3d (aka O3a4), this marker is mostly absent from Japanese/Koreans. But abundant in Chinese.

This is what I found..

Haplogroup O2-M268
Main article: Haplogroup O2 (Y-DNA)
Haplogroup O2a-M95: Found frequently among Austro-Asiatic peoples, Kradai peoples, Malays, Indonesians, and Malagasy, with a moderate distribution throughout South Asia, Southeast Asia, East Asia, and Central Asia.
Haplogroup O2a1-M88: Found frequently among Hani, She people, Tai peoples, Cambodians, and Vietnamese, with a moderate distribution among Qiang, Yi, Hlai, Miao, Yao, Taiwanese aborigines, and Han Chinese.
Haplogroup O2a1a-PK4: Found with low frequency among Pashtuns,[7] Tharus,[8] and tribals of Andhra Pradesh.[8]

Haplogroup O2b-M176:
Found frequently among Koreans, with a moderate distribution among Buryats, Daurs, Chinese Evenks, Hezhe, Indonesians, Japanese, Manchus, Micronesians, Ryukyuans, Sibe, Thais, Udegeys, and Vietnamese.

Haplogroup O2b1-47z:
Found frequently among Japanese and Ryukyuans, with a moderate distribution among Indonesians, Koreans, Manchus, Thais, and Vietnamese.


Haplogroup O3-M122
Main article: Haplogroup O3 (Y-DNA)
Found frequently among populations of East Asia, Southeast Asia, and culturally Austronesian regions of Oceania, with a moderate distribution in Central Asia.[9]

Haplogroup O3a3c-M134:
Found frequently among Sino-Tibetan peoples, with a moderate distribution throughout East Asia and Southeast Asia.

Haplogroup O3a3b-M7:
Found frequently among Ancient Daxi culture and modern Hmong-Mien peoples, with a moderate distribution among Han Chinese,[10] Buyei,[10] Bai,[11] Mosuo,[11] Tibetans,[11] Qiang,[10] Oroqen,[10] Tujia,[12] Thai,[12] Orang Asli,[12] western Indonesians,[12][13] Malaysians,[13] Vietnamese,[13] and Atayal.[12]

Haplogroup O3
Time of origin 10,000[1] to 30,000[2] years ago
Place of origin China[1] or Southeast Asia[2]
Ancestor O
Defining mutations M122

Highest frequencies
Derung 100%,[2]
Nishi 94%,[3]
Adi 89%,[3]
Tamang 87%,[4]
Achang 82.5%,[2]
Apatani 82%,[3]
Naga 76%,[3]
Nu 70%[2]-86%,[5]
She 63%[6]-74%,[7]
Bai 48%[2][5]-82%,[2]
Yao 34%[7]-83%,[7]
Miao 44%[2]-70%,[6]
Han 30%[8]-74%,[9]
Vietnamese 39%[13]-41%,[6]
Manchu 38%[6]-43%,[15]
Koreans 32%[15]-47%,[16]
Japanese 16%[15]-23%,[7]
Okinawans 16%[12]-21%,[26]

Buyei 4%[25]-31%,[7]
Cambodians 14%[2]-22%,[27]
Mongolians 8%[20]-23%[12]

8.^ a b Rui-Jing Gan, Shang-Ling Pan, Laura F. Mustavich et al., "Pinghua population as an exception of Han Chinese's coherent genetic structure," Journal of Human Genetics (2008) 53:303–313.
9.^ a b Wen B, Li H, Lu D et al. (September 2004). "Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han culture". Nature 431 (7006): 302–5. doi:10.1038/nature02878. PMID 15372031. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/abs/nature02878.html. "Supplementary Table 2: NRY haplogroup distribution in Han populations".
 
Haplogroup O3
Time of origin 10,000[1] to 30,000[2] years ago
Place of origin China[1] or Southeast Asia[2]
Ancestor O
Defining mutations M122

Highest frequencies
Derung 100%,[2]
Nishi 94%,[3]
Adi 89%,[3]
Tamang 87%,[4]
Achang 82.5%,[2]
Apatani 82%,[3]
Naga 76%,[3]
Nu 70%[2]-86%,[5]
She 63%[6]-74%,[7]
Bai 48%[2][5]-82%,[2]
Yao 34%[7]-83%,[7]
Miao 44%[2]-70%,[6]
Han 30%[8]-74%,[9]
Vietnamese 39%[13]-41%,[6]
Manchu 38%[6]-43%,[15]
Koreans 32%[15]-47%,[16]
Japanese 16%[15]-23%,[7]
Okinawans 16%[12]-21%,[26]
Buyei 4%[25]-31%,[7]
Cambodians 14%[2]-22%,[27]
Mongolians 8%[20]-23%[12]

This is based on O3 -M122 (father of all O3)
Han Chinese mutated O3 is O3d aka O3a4-M7, then it gets further break into:
O3a4* -
O3a4a M113, M188, M209 (formerly O3d1)
O3a4a* -
O3a4a1 N4
O3a4a2 N5

All East Asian have O3-M122 because this is original source of all O3#
Also Han Chinese are more heavily mixed than Japanese/Koreans, locating origin of Koreans from Han Chinese is pointless when supposedly unique to Koreans O2b* marker is absent from Han Chinese, this doesn't mean all Han Chinese don't have O2b marker, some North East Han Chinese have them too but because of size of Chinese population is so great, O2b carriers in China is dwarfed.

Please note O2b1 is exclusively available from Manchus, Koreans and Japanese, but O2b is available from some SE Asian population. This doesn't mean O2b is originated from SE Asia because O2b is not dominant y-Chromosome marker among SE Asian population. Who knows some Japanese/Koreans may have traveled far as SE Asia and spread their marker.

The invasion blood theory is groundless, considering Korea was invaded by Chinese, Mongols, Tungus, Manchus, Turkic tribes, Khitans and Japanese, but very few mutated genes from Han Chinese, Mongolian and Japanese are available from Koreans, also their autosomal DNA analysis is not under Chinese or Japanese autosomal three.

Using Autosomal genetic tree, Koreans have split from Mongolian about 10,000 years ago then Japanese were split from Koreans about 5,000 years ago. Under mt-DNA and Autosomal genetic tree; interestingly Mongolian, Japanese, Koreans, and Ainu are grouped together but not with Han Chinese.

Han Chinese are often grouped with SE Asian autosomal genetic tree, some researchers suggested Han Chinese should be split up into several groups under Autosomal genetic tree due to huge gap between regional difference. Please note Northern Han and Southern Han are not often grouped together under genetic tree. This is because the difference from Northern Han to Southern Han is about same as Northern Han to Koreans. In fact Northern Han is more closer to Koreans than to their Southern Han. The only problem is Koreans are more closer to Japanese than to Northern Han Chinese, suggesting O2b*/O2b1 is why there are close proximity between Koreans and Japanese. Further more, C3 marker is more frequent among Northern Han than in Koreans, this could explain the Mongolian involvement. Mongolian empire ruled China from Beijing suggesting more Mongolian gene were added to Northern Han.

However, C3 marker is not exclusive to Mongolian, in fact geneticists have difficulties extracting DNA analysis result from Mongolian samples due to Mongolian were nomadic people and also Mongolian DNA analysis from East to West is also have higher gap than Northern Han to Koreans suggesting Mongolian have more diversity.

Scientists are using Korean genes to measure the genetic distance between among East Asian because Koreans are known to be most homogeneous people in East Asia, more homogeneous than Japanese.
 
Last edited:
This is based on O3 -M122 (father of all O3)
Han Chinese mutated O3 is O3d aka O3a4-M7, then it gets further break into:
O3a4* -
O3a4a M113, M188, M209 (formerly O3d1)
O3a4a* -
O3a4a1 N4
O3a4a2 N5

All East Asian have O3-M122 because this is original source of all O3#
Also Han Chinese are more heavily mixed than Japanese/Koreans, locating origin of Koreans from Han Chinese is pointless when supposedly unique to Koreans O2b* marker is absent from Han Chinese, this doesn't mean all Han Chinese don't have O2b marker, some North East Han Chinese have them too but because of size of Chinese population is so great, O2b carriers in China is dwarfed.

Please note O2b1 is exclusively available from Manchus, Koreans and Japanese, but O2b is available from some SE Asian population. This doesn't mean O2b is originated from SE Asia because O2b is not dominant y-Chromosome marker among SE Asian population. Who knows some Japanese/Koreans may have traveled far as SE Asia and spread their marker.

The invasion blood theory is groundless, considering Korea was invaded by Chinese, Mongols, Tungus, Manchus, Turkic tribes, Khitans and Japanese, but very few mutated genes from Han Chinese, Mongolian and Japanese are available from Koreans, also their autosomal DNA analysis is not under Chinese or Japanese autosomal three.

Using Autosomal genetic tree, Koreans have split from Mongolian about 10,000 years ago then Japanese were split from Koreans about 5,000 years ago. Under mt-DNA and Autosomal genetic tree; interestingly Mongolian, Japanese, Koreans, and Ainu are grouped together but not with Han Chinese.

Han Chinese are often grouped with SE Asian autosomal genetic tree, some researchers suggested Han Chinese should be split up into several groups under Autosomal genetic tree due to huge gap between regional difference. Please note Northern Han and Southern Han are not often grouped together under genetic tree. This is because the difference from Northern Han to Southern Han is about same as Northern Han to Koreans. In fact Northern Han is more closer to Koreans than to their Southern Han. The only problem is Koreans are more closer to Japanese than to Northern Han Chinese, suggesting O2b*/O2b1 is why there are close proximity between Koreans and Japanese. Further more, C3 marker is more frequent among Northern Han than in Koreans, this could explain the Mongolian involvement. Mongolian empire ruled China from Beijing suggesting more Mongolian gene were added to Northern Han.

However, C3 marker is not exclusive to Mongolian, in fact geneticists have difficulties extracting DNA analysis result from Mongolian samples due to Mongolian were nomadic people and also Mongolian DNA analysis from East to West is also have higher gap than Northern Han to Koreans suggesting Mongolian have more diversity.

Scientists are using Korean genes to measure the genetic distance between among East Asian because Koreans are known to be most homogeneous people in East Asia, more homogeneous than Japanese.

Can you cite sources?
Writing those long sentences without any citation of original sources are immoral, or academically unhealthy.
 
Haplogroup O3-M122
Main article: Haplogroup O3 (Y-DNA)
Found frequently among populations of East Asia, Southeast Asia, and culturally Austronesian regions of Oceania, with a moderate distribution in Central Asia.[9]

Haplogroup O3a3c-M134: Found frequently among Sino-Tibetan peoples, with a moderate distribution throughout East Asia and Southeast Asia.
Haplogroup O3a3b-M7: Found frequently among Ancient Daxi culture and modern Hmong-Mien peoples, with a moderate distribution among Han Chinese,[10] Buyei,[10] Bai,[11] Mosuo,[11] Tibetans,[11] Qiang,[10] Oroqen,[10] Tujia,[12] Thai,[12] Orang Asli,[12] western Indonesians,[12][13] Malaysians,[13] Vietnamese,[13] and Atayal.[12]

Wells et al. (2001):
Koreans
3/45 = 6.7 percents D-M174
7/45 = 15.6 percents C-M130(xC3c-M48)
1/45 = 2.2 percents F-M89(xI-M170, J2-M172, H1-M52, K-M9)
1/45 = 2.2 percents K-M9(xL-M20, N1c-M46, O-M175, P-M45)
14/45 = 31.1 percents O-M175(xO1a-M119, O2a-M95, O3-M122)
16/45 = 35.6 percents O3-M122
2/45 = 4.4 percents O1a-M119
1/45 = 2.2 percents Q1a1-M120

Xue et al. (2006):
Korean (China)
2/25 = 8.0 percents Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K)
3/25 = 12.0 percents C3-M217(xC3c-M48)
1/25 = 4.0 percents K-M9(xNO-M214, P-92R7)
1/25 = 4.0 percents N1*-LLY22g(xN1a-M128, N1b-P43, N1c-Tat)
1/25 = 4.0 percents O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465)
5/25 = 20.0 percents O2b-SRY465(xO2b1-47z)
2/25 = 8.0 percents O2b1-47z
6/25 = 24.0 percents O3*-M122
4/25 = 16.0 percents O3a3c1-M117

Korean (Korea)
7/43 = 16.3 percents C3-M217(xC3c-M48)
1/43 = 2.3 percents DE-YAP(xE-SRY4064)
1/43 = 2.3 percents J-12f2
1/43 = 2.3 percents K-M9(xNO-M214, P-92R7)
1/43 = 2.3 percents NO-M214(xN1-LLY22g, O-M175)
1/43 = 2.3 percents N1*-LLY22g(xN1a-M128, N1b-P43, N1c-Tat)
1/43 = 2.3 percents O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465)
6/43 = 14.0 percents O2b-SRY465(xO2b1-47z)
6/43 = 14.0 percents O2b1-47z
7/43 = 16.3 percents O3*-M122
5/43 = 11.6 percents O3a3c-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)
5/43 = 11.6 percents O3a3c1-M117
1/43 = 2.3 percents P-92R7(xR1a-SRY10831.2)

Hammer et al. (2005):
7/75 = 9.3 percents C3-M217(xC3c-M86)
1/75 = 1.3 percents D2*-P37.1
2/75 = 2.7 percents D2a1-M125
1/75 = 1.3 percents N1-LLY22g(xN1a-M128, N1b-P43, N1c1-M178)
1/75 = 1.3 percents N1a-M128
8/75 = 10.7 percents O3-M122(xM134, LINE1)
15/75 = 20.0 percents O3a3c-M134
7/75 = 9.3 percents O3+LINE1
2/75 = 2.7 percents O1a-M119
2/75 = 2.7 percents O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465)
25/75 = 33.3 percents O2b-SRY465/P49(xO2b1-47z)
3/75 = 4.0 percents O2b1-47z
1/75 = 1.3 percents R-M207

Katoh et al. (2004):
Korean Chinese ("...collected in the northeastern part of
China")
10/79 = 12.7 percents C-M130(xC3c-M48)
2/79 = 2.5 percents D
1/79 = 1.3 percents J
1/79 = 1.3 percents K-M9(xN1c-Tat, O-M175, P-M45)
2/79 = 2.5 percents O-M175(xO1a-M119, O2b-SRY465, O3-M122)
38/79 = 48.1 percents O2b-SRY465
23/79 = 29.1 percents O3-M122
2/79 = 2.5 percents P-M45(xR1a-SRY1532)

Korean ("...collected in Seoul by the
Catholic University of Korea")
14/85 = 16.5 percents C-M130(xC3c-M48)
3/85 = 3.5 percents D
4/85 = 4.7 percents K-M9(xN1c-Tat, O-M175, P-M45)
2/85 = 2.4 percents N1c-Tat
3/85 = 3.5 percents O-M175(xO1a-M119, O2b-SRY465, O3-M122)
2/85 = 2.4 percents O1a-M119
28/85 = 32.9 percents O2b-SRY465
29/85 = 34.1 percents O3-M122

One interesting fact about the composition of the Korean Y-DNA pool that has often gone unnoticed is that they have great amounts of O3-M122(xO3a3c-M134), in both its LINE1+ and LINE1- forms.

O3-M122(xO3a3c-M134) is found in China with about the same frequency as it is found in Korea, but this form of haplogroup O3 is very rare in Japan and Tibet, where practically all the O3-M122 Y-DNA belongs to the O3a3c-M134 subclade.

Does anyone have any suggestion as to why nearly all the Japanese and Tibetan O3 individuals should belong to the same subclade?

Isn't this the proof that koreans' origin is northern han chinese? Japanese must come from china, though little older than koreans.

January 16, 2009
Y chromosomes and mtDNA of Koreans

Table 2 has a very useful listing of mtDNA haplogroup frequencies in several East Asian populations.

Table 5 has admixture estimates of NE and SE Asians in Korean populations; notice the gender asymmetry, with males of more southern origin than females.

Table S3 (Excel) has Y-chromosome haplogroup frequencies.

From the paper:

What could be the origin of the male-biased southern contribution to Korean gene pool illustrated, for example, by haplogroups O-M122 (42.2 percents) and O-SRY465 (20.1 percents) [29]. Recent molecular genetic analyses and the geographical distribution of haplogroup O-M122 lineages, found widely throughout East Asia at high frequencies (especially in southern populations and China), have suggested a link between these Y-chromosome expansions and the spread of rice agriculture in East Asia [62]–[64]. In general, Y-chromosomes might be spread via a process of demic diffusion during the early agricultural expansion period [65], [66]. If this interpretation were substantiated, the spatial pattern of Y-haplogroup O would imply a genetic contribution to Korea through the spread of male-mediated agriculture.


PLoS ONE 10.1371/journal.pone.0004210

The Peopling of Korea Revealed by Analyses of Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosomal Markers

Han-Jun Jin, Chris Tyler-Smith, Wook Kim

Methodology and Results

We analyzed mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence variation in the hypervariable segments I and II (HVS-I and HVS-II) and haplogroup-specific mutations in coding regions in 445 individuals from seven east Asian populations (Korean, Korean-Chinese, Mongolian, Manchurian, Han (Beijing), Vietnamese and Thais). In addition, published mtDNA haplogroup data (N = 3307), mtDNA HVS-I sequences (N = 2313), Y chromosome haplogroup data (N = 1697) and Y chromosome STR data (N = 2713) were analyzed to elucidate the genetic structure of East Asian populations. All the mtDNA profiles studied here were classified into subsets of haplogroups common in East Asia, with just two exceptions. In general, the Korean mtDNA profiles revealed similarities to other northeastern Asian populations through analysis of individual haplogroup distributions, genetic distances between populations or an analysis of molecular variance, although a minor southern contribution was also suggested. Reanalysis of Y-chromosomal data confirmed both the overall similarity to other northeastern populations, and also a larger paternal contribution from southeastern populations.

Conclusion

The present work provides evidence that peopling of Korea can be seen as a complex process, interpreted as an early northern Asian settlement with at least one subsequent male-biased southern-to-northern migration, possibly associated with the spread of rice agriculture.

Are the first chinese who brought rice cultures to koreans the first Gojoseon males? Did the males from the southern china dominated the manchuria, and reproduced with korean women?

Or, did the Lelang commandery (BC108-AD313) transform the korean demography?
 
Last edited:
charlypanda
Be careful!
•Ancient mogols were korean, O2b* and O2b1.ツ ツ?ィツ A part of ancient Mongolians became a part of ancient Koreans.•Yamato Clan was Koreans.ツ ツ?ィ State organizing concept of Yamato, Goguryeo, Baekje has something in common.
•Japanese emperor is/was korean.ツ ツ?ィ LOL Wei's Chronicle says that Wo people once erected a man for king but all people didn't agree and then erected a queen. By the way, Korea is something that arouse a millenium later thereafter.
•Dongyi were Koreans.ツ ツ?ィ Majority of Koreans are Dongyi.
"Dongyi" was a term used to collectively refer to people living in eastern China. The term "dongyi" is literally translated as "eastern barbarians" and people referred to as "Dongyi" varied through the ages.
This is korean supremacist propaganda..the Dong Yi and Xia/Shang are the true ancestors of 窶ーテ伉人/ナ?ツソツ人 even chinese in Hong Kong and Singapore agree on this. furthermore, denying the superiority of these two ancient groups over others is revisionism.
Koreans do not look like mongol, because mongol have higher nose/cheek, and their face is not so flat. Mongols do not possess O2 genes, and Malays/Indonesian do have O2. this is a proof that O2 was probably from southern china.
izur
I have pooled all the published data that I have previously posted to arrive at these figures for Korean Y-DNA:
15/722 = 2.1 percents D (probably mostly D2 from Japan)
8/722 = 1.1 percents Y*(xC, DE, K) (including at least some J and F(xI, J2, H1, K))
101/722 = 14.0 percents C (probably all C3-M217(xC3c-M48))
42/722 = 5.8 percents K(xO) (including at least N1*(xN1a, N1b, N1c), N1a, N1c, NO(xN1, O), Q1a1, and R)
245/722 = 33.9 percents O(xO1a, O3) (mostly consists of O2b(xO2b1))
19/722 = 2.6 percents O1a
292/722 = 40.4 percents O3
It is clear that haplogroup O3-M122 (including O3*, O3+LINE1, O3a3c*, and O3a3c1) is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among modern Koreans, occurring in approximately 40 percents of all Korean males. The second-most common Y-DNA haplogroup among modern Koreans is O2b-SRY465 (approximately 30 percents), with most of this belonging to O2b-SRY465(xO2b1-47z). The third-most common Y-DNA haplogroup is C3-M217(xC3c-M48), which occurs in approximately 15 percents of all Korean males. All other haplogroups occur at very low frequency (approx. 5 percents or less).
I believe that the mitochondrial DNA, autosomal DNA, and phenotypic links that exist between Koreans and northern Asians can be explained by a largely shared matrilineal ancestry in addition to the portion of their patrilineal ancestry that is represented by haplogroup C3-M217.
Was ancient koreans pushed into the peninsula by Sino-Tibetan, and majority of women reproduced with han chinese men, during occupation by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313)??
izur
In any case, haplogroup O2b seems to have originated or at least primarily increased its frequency in the vicinity of the Sea of Japan, either in the Japanese-Ryukyuan archipelago or the Korean Peninsula, and dispersed from there recently, because its spread is not consistent with an ancient origin on continental East Asia (e.g., why should O2b be found in such high frequencies among some samples of Manchus, but very low frequencies among other samples of Manchus as well as the other Southern Tungusic-speaking Hezhe/Nanais and Xibe/Sibes, and be completely absent from all Northern Tungusic tribes outside of Manchuria, if it had originated among the prehistoric proto-Tungusic people?
The only logical explanation is that O2b has entered some subgroups of the Southern Tungusic-speaking people very recently from Korea or Japan, and there is historical evidence for an influence from southwestern Japan ("Wa") to southern Korea ("Silla," "Baekje") and thence to Manchuria ("Goguryeo" > "Bohai" > "Manju");
cf. "Hogong," "origin myth of the Kim royal family of Silla," "Manzhou Yuanliu Kao (Investigations into the Source and Streams (=Origin and Development) of Manchu)", etc.). There is really no pre-modern historical evidence to bring to bear on the question of the source of haplogroup O2b in Southeast Asia.
Was O2b1 (uniquely japanese DNA) disseminated by ancient Japanese to Koreans?
Were ancient koreans really from ancient Mongolia?
Were Koreans really a master race, and really a Dong Yi?
izur
Anyway, haplogroup O2b has not been found in any sample of Han Chinese for which a marker of haplogroup O2b has been tested. However, Hammer et al. (2005) have found haplogroup O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465/P49) in the following samples:
Korea: 2/75 = 2.7 percents
Northern Han: 2/44 = 4.5 percents
Manchu: 3/52 = 5.8 percents
Manchurian Evenk: 2/41 = 4.9 percents
Oroqen: 1/22 = 4.5 percents
Taiwan (non-aboriginal): 6/84 = 7.1 percents
Tujia: 2/49 = 4.1 percents
Yizu: 1/43 = 2.3 percents
Yao: 12/60 = 20.0 percents
Vietnam: 1/70 = 1.4 percents
Mongolia: 2/149 = 1.3 percents
Xue et al. (2006) have found haplogroup O2*(xO2a, O2b) in 12/166 = 7.2 percents of their Han Chinese samples, ranging from 0/30 in Lanzhou, Gansu to 5/35 = 14.3 percents in Meixian, Guangdong. Meixian (窶捫县, literally "(Japanese/Chinese/Prunus mume) plum county") is located in southeastern China, and is known as a center of Hakka AKA Kejia (窶ケq窶ーテ? literally "guest houses/families") culture.
In regard to the Japanese and Okinawans, Hammer et al. (2005) have found haplogroup O2b-SRY465/P49(xO2b1-47z) in 20/255 = 7.8 percents, and haplogroup O2b1-47z in 57/255 = 22.4 percents, with the frequencies of O2b(xO2b1) and O2b1 being negatively correlated with each other (haplogroup O2b(xO2b1) was most frequent in Shizuoka (8/61 = 13.1 percents) and Okinawa (5/45 = 11.1 percents) and least frequent in Kyushu (2/53 = 3.8 percents) and Aomori (1/26 = 3.8 percents), whereas haplogroup O2b1 was most frequent in Kyushu (15/53 = 28.3 percents) and Aomori (7/26 = 26.9 percents)).
Xue et al. (2006) have found haplogroup O2b(xO2b1) in 2/47 = 4.3 percents, haplogroup O2b1 in 11/47 = 23.4 percents, and haplogroup O2a-M95(xO2a1-M88) in 2/47 = 4.3 percents of a sample of Japanese. Pooling the data of Hammer et al. (2005) and Xue et al. (2006) yields a ratio of 22 O2b(xO2b1) to 68 O2b1 in Japan, which is approximately a 1:3 ratio (22/68 = 32.4 percents).
Was original O2 population migrated to japan through taiwan crossing the Ice bridge to Okinawa, and then to southwestern japanese islands. Was the O2b1 genes were borne in japan? Did japanese colonize Korean, Baekje or Silla?
 
Last edited:
izur
The problem is that haplogroup O2b is not found in the Tungus (Northern Tungusic speakers) or Chinese populations. The present distribution of haplogroup O2b (mainly Japan, Korea, and possibly Manchus, though the various sources of data on Manchus are contradictory, and some populations in Southeast Asia) does not even support the hypothesis of an origin among the original "Koreans" (高麗, who, according to historical documents, originated from Manchuria), much less any Tungusic-speaking people, because if this clade had originated in prehistoric times in southern Manchuria or northern Korea, we should expect to see some spillover into neighboring populations, rather than spillover into Indonesians, Vietnamese, Thais, etc.

The fact that haplogroup O2b is not generally found in North Asia or continental East Asia (outside of Koreans and Manchus) is itself enough to throw serious doubt on any hypothesis of an ancient continental Manchurian origin.

The hypothesis of a Korean origin of anything in Japan is also not supported by historical evidence; all such claims have tacitly ignored the very explicit historical evidence for ancient Japanese influence in Korea. There are undeniably some archaeological connections between ancient Japan and Korea (magatama, kofun, etc.), but the direction of influence is debatable. In any case, your claim that "Koreans in China display the highest frequencies of O2b" is groundless: Xue et al. (2006) have reported 28.0% O2b in a sample of Koreans in China, while Katoh et al. (2004) have reported 48.1% O2b in another sample of Koreans in China. Who is to say which figure is more accurate? The origin of the Korean population in China is very recent (late 19th to 20th century immigrants), so their Y-DNA composition should not be very different from Koreans in general.

Also, haplogroup O2b is fairly evenly distributed throughout the Japanese Archipelago, but the situation in the Ryukyu Archipelago is a bit confusing; haplogroup O2b seems to be very strongly present in the southern Ryukyus (Miyako and Yaeyama), but only averagely so in the northern Ryukyus (e.g. Okinawa). The variation in the distribution of O2b in Japan is a matter of the inverse relationship between the frequencies of O2b*-P49(xO2b1-47z) and O2b1-47z, which does not have anything to do with the distribution of the entire O2b-P49 clade.

Was O2 gene originally from china, then transmitted to japan, southern okinawa, and ancient primitive people of japan colonized southernmost korean peninsula bringing O2b1 to korea?
 
You have to try harder than that instead of throwing just selective sources and making claims out of your wishful thinking. Wasn't clarified that o2b1 is a mutated form of o2b? also Okinawans also have Korean DNA and vice versa (Koreans have 17 percent Okinawan DNA, even more than the Japanese), I don't know in which period but Goryo style roof tiles was found in Okinawa. And it was the Hmongs who brought rice cultivation to Korea, not chinese. Maybe o3 was introduced to the peninsula through them.
 
Last edited:
You have to try harder than that instead of throwing just selective sources and making claims out of your wishful thinking. Wasn't clarified that o2b1 is a mutated form of o2b? also Okinawans also have Korean DNA and vice versa (Koreans have 17 percent Okinawan DNA, even more than the Japanese), I don't in know which period but Goryo style roof tiles was found in Okinawa. And it was the Hmongs who brought rice cultivation to Korea, not chinese. Maybe o3 was introduced to the peninsula through them.

17 percents of Okinawans have O2b1 (uniquely japanese YDNA), not O2b* (uniquely korean YDNA).

It is not selective. It is a summary of the published results..

Korean
15/722 = 2.1 percents D (probably mostly D2 from Japan)
8/722 = 1.1 percents Y*(xC, DE, K) (including at least some J and F(xI, J2, H1, K))
101/722 = 14.0 percents C (probably all C3-M217(xC3c-M48))
42/722 = 5.8 percents K(xO) (including at least N1*(xN1a, N1b, N1c), N1a, N1c, NO(xN1, O), Q1a1, and R)
245/722 = 33.9 percents O(xO1a, O3) (mostly consists of O2b(xO2b1))
19/722 = 2.6 percents O1a
292/722 = 40.4 percents O3

Hammer et al. (2005) have found haplogroup O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465/P49) in the following samples:
Korea: 2/75 = 2.7 percents
Northern Han: 2/44 = 4.5 percents
Manchu: 3/52 = 5.8 percents
Manchurian Evenk: 2/41 = 4.9 percents
Oroqen: 1/22 = 4.5 percents
Taiwan (non-aboriginal): 6/84 = 7.1 percents
Tujia: 2/49 = 4.1 percents
Yizu: 1/43 = 2.3 percents
Yao: 12/60 = 20.0 percents
Vietnam: 1/70 = 1.4 percents
Mongolia: 2/149 = 1.3 percents

And this is the selective source? Selective in a good way? Han chinese do have O2* which is ancestal gene of O2b* (uniquely korean) and O2b1 (uniquely japanese).
 
Can you cite sources?
Writing those long sentences without any citation of original sources are immoral, or academically unhealthy.

This forum prohibit me from entering 3rd party links, it says I don't have enough post to allow inputting 3rd party web links and pictures.

Isn't this the proof that koreans' origin is northern han chinese? Japanese must come from china, though little older than koreans.
Are the first chinese who brought rice cultures to koreans the first Gojoseon males? Did the males from the southern china dominated the manchuria, and reproduced with korean women?
Or, did the Lelang commandery (BC108-AD313) transform the korean demography?

1. Modern Japanese genes are recently made not as old as Korean genes.
2. Gojoseon tombs revealed little info. about DNA because they are too old for extracting DNA analysis, so researchers used skull measurements to determine the origin. They've found Dolmen builders (Gojoseon people) may have originated from Central Asia.
3. The location of Lelang commandery is disputed but it did not covered all of Korean peninsula. Most scholars agreed that Lelang might have been located near Liaoning-Korea border.

charlypanda
"Dongyi" was a term used to collectively refer to people living in eastern China. The term "dongyi" is literally translated as "eastern barbarians" and people referred to as "Dongyi" varied through the ages.
This is korean supremacist propaganda..the Dong Yi and Xia/Shang are the true ancestors of 華人/漢人 even chinese in Hong Kong and Singapore agree on this. furthermore, denying the superiority of these two ancient groups over others is revisionism.
Koreans do not look like mongol, because mongol have higher nose/cheek, and their face is not so flat. Mongols do not possess O2 genes, and Malays/Indonesian do have O2. this is a proof that O2 was probably from southern china.
izur
[/CENTER]
Was ancient koreans pushed into the peninsula by Sino-Tibetan, and majority of women reproduced with han chinese men, during occupation by Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313)??
izur
Was O2b1 (uniquely japanese DNA) disseminated by ancient Japanese to Koreans?
Were ancient koreans really from ancient Mongolia?
Were Koreans really a master race, and really a Dong Yi?
izur
Was original O2 population migrated to japan through taiwan crossing the Ice bridge to Okinawa, and then to southwestern japanese islands. Was the O2b1 genes were borne in japan? Did japanese colonize Korean, Baekje or Silla?

Much of Dongyi theory is came from Chinese written source not from Korean source, but according to written evidence, one of the ancient Korean clan might have came from one of the nine Dongyi clans. Koguryeo once referred them as descendant of one of the Dongyi.
Besides, Japanese aka Dongyi according to Chinese source.

Modern Mongolian were different from ancient Mongolian, this was why scientists had problems studying Mongolian DNA.

Was O2 gene originally from china, then transmitted to japan, southern okinawa, and ancient primitive people of japan colonized southernmost korean peninsula bringing O2b1 to korea?

Well considering 'O' marker was said to be originated from India and traveled to China via SE Asia, yes O1/O2/O3 are all muted some where in China or SE Asia, but O2b* wasn't muted in China considering Han Chinese lack this marker.

17 percents of Okinawans have O2b1 (uniquely japanese YDNA), not O2b* (uniquely korean YDNA).
It is not selective. It is a summary of the published results..
Korean
And this is the selective source? Selective in a good way? Han chinese do have O2* which is ancestal gene of O2b* (uniquely korean) and O2b1 (uniquely japanese).

You're wrong.
using the ISOGG_Hapgrp O 2007 table, O2b1 is mutated from O2b*, and O2b* & O2b1 is also found from Manchus and some Southern Tungus tribes as well as some Uyghurs.

Han Chinese have O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7, but lacks O2b. If Han Chinese were ancestor of Japanese/Koreans then they should also have O2b* + O2b1, also O3d-M7 aka O3a4, O1b-M110 + O2a1-M88 is absent from Koreans or Japanese.

Please note O2b is muted from father O2, O2 was split into O2a and O2b for classification purpose. All yDNA hap group 'O' came from India & Central Asia. Please note O2b is not muted from O2a just like O3 is not muted from O2.

If Koreans were originated from Northern Han Chinese then Koreans should have O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7 and would have transported this carriers to Japan, however Koreans don't have them thus Japanese don't have them too.

Please note O3-M122 (father of all O3#) is also presence from Japanese too.
 
Last edited:
Is there such thing as northern han or was a term invented by chinese to claim other people's origin?

Yes/No.
It was made to classify Han Chinese into two major group considering DNA analysis from Han Chinese from different regions produced huge gap, autosomal DNA analysis strongly shows Han Chinese native at Beijing is different from Han Chinese native from Hong Kong suggesting Han Chinese natives at Northern regions are influenced by other North Asian stock. This is actually relatively new terms.

Also, Han Chinese are more diverse than Japanese/Koreans due to massive population. A good way to distinguish all East Asian group is use mtDNA and autosomal DNA hence many people mistakenly thinking Koreans look similar to Mongolian/NE Chinese & Japanese this is because Koreans share close proximity of mtDNA and autosomal DNA with Mongolian and Japanese.

Please note, North East Han Chinese are recent immigrants to Manju, just 150 years ago they're not allowed to settled in Manchuria under Qing rules. Qing Dynasty prohibited ethnic group to mix but this gradually stand down as many Mongolian and Manchus married Han Chinese. The term Han Chinese originated from Ming Dynasty not from Han Dynasty. Ming Dynasty of China wanted create class for Chinese and other minorities hence the term Han Chinese was formed. It means 'Great Chinese', most Han Chinese were originated from Yellow river to East coast of China, they dominated sea routes and internal markets.
 
Haplogroup O2b
Time of origin 6,300 [600–37,000] years

Haplogroup O2b1
Time of origin 7,870 [5,720–12,630] years ago[8]
Place of origin perhaps the Japanese archipelago

O2b1 was borne 7,870 years ago, that tells something..

Kyushin
you must supply the sources. If you are a newcomer, and can't paste the link, that dose not excuse to post all those speculations without original citation...
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom