Should JAPAN be selective about asylum and immigration?

[jihadjay]

Should Japan be selective about asylum and immigration?


Before concentrating on Japan, let us focus on multi-ethnic and mutli-racial nations, and then see what problems this may bring to Japan.

Now it is clear that the United States is the most dynamic economic nation in the world, yet her foundation was mainly based on massive Christian migration which fused together the sucess that became the United States. Of course other migrants went to this land, notably Jews and the Chinese, and of course slaves were taken against their will; yet the binding factor of the United States was a shared Christian heritage and the need to keep religion out of government.

Yet the United States, like France, the United Kingdom, and other multi-ethnic nations in modern times are plagued with enormous social problems. For example Beirut and the Lebanese civil war was bloody; yet the entire total dead in this conflict relates to the same amount of murders that takes place every year in the United States. And crime in major cities in the UK and France are real problems, while many communities are divided on religous or ethnic grounds. At the same time drug problems are major issues and high crime rates.

If we look at Indonesia and Nigeria, both multi-ethnic and multi-religious, then it is clear that these nations are divided by Islam and Christianity, and ethnic groups within these nations of the same religion also clash. For example Aceh Muslims are being killed by the Indonesian armed forces, while tensions remain in the Spice Islands and West Papua between Christians and Muslims.

Therefore, multi-ethnic nations and multi-religious nations can create countless negative problems; and given this, shouldn't Japan be selective about immigration and asylum in order to maintain confucian ethics of social order, which is fused with Shinto and Buddhist ways in Japan?

This implies that Japan should allow skilled workers if shortages are apparent in certain sectors. While asylum could be based on shared Buddhist values. Given this, asylum and immigration could be focused on Chinese migrants/asylum seekers, Koreans (high Christian population), and other nations like Myanmar, Thailand, and Vietnam which are mainly Buddhist.

By doing this, Japan will preserve her confucian ethics of social harmony which is fused with Shinto and Buddhism. At the same time, skilled workers would benefit Japan and not be a drain on resources.

Of course negative attitudes towards the Chinese and Koreans within Japan would have to be tackled. Yet this policy may benefit Japan!


Lee Jay Walker Dip BA MA

[Matthew C. Perry]

Excellent post. Yes, Japan should certainly continue to be selective in asylum and immigration. Japan's much maligned immigration system actually works far better than that of America, or most European countries.

[Shidenkai]

I'm in total agreement with you.
A martal poison for Japanese System is the alien ethnic religion of other Countryes, like Middle East or even Europe. The negative attitude of Johannes Paulus II against China and Japan, must be a remark for Japanese Administration and People, 'cause if Japan will become a multiethnic society, his end like a united and great nation will be sonn.
Luckily, the real situation is distant from this conjecture; but I hope that the Japanese Govern will go on the street of a true discrimination of immigrated citizen and tourist.

[bossel]

Originally Posted by jihadjay

Therefore, multi-ethnic nations and multi-religious nations can create countless negative problems; and given this, shouldn't Japan be selective about immigration and asylum in order to maintain confucian ethics of social order, which is fused with Shinto and Buddhist ways in Japan?

This implies that Japan should allow skilled workers if shortages are apparent in certain sectors. While asylum could be based on shared Buddhist values. Given this, asylum and immigration could be focused on Chinese migrants/asylum seekers, Koreans (high Christian population), and other nations like Myanmar, Thailand, and Vietnam which are mainly Buddhist.

1st you should not mix asylum & immigration issues. Asylum is a human right! If you don't know what it means, look here:
http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm

Quote:
"Article 14 1. Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution."

There is also a Declaration on Territorial Asylum:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/o_asylum.htm

In article 14 you see the word "everyone", this means that you are not allowed to discriminate regarding ethnicity, religion or whatever. There are restrictions, but based on "acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations".


Immigration is a completely different issue. Every country has the right to decide who to let in. But even here it is rather short-sighted to be too restrictive. Most industrialized countries will need the influx of immigrants (who are mostly rather young & tend to have more children than the original inhabitants) to keep their social systems intact. For the birth rates are too low, too many old people may lead to a collapse of current systems.
I don't know in how far this already happens in Japan (I heard that birth rates are dropping), but it's a problem they also will face sooner or later.

Cultural values change over time. What do you want to do? Preserve Japan as it is now or as it was 100 years ago? Do you want to create a huge open-air museum?

Regarding Europe & immigration: the problems are highly exaggerated.
Drug problems are a major issue in the US, not so much in Europe. Same goes for high crime rates, which are anyway not really related to immigration but to poverty & social circumstances.

[Shidenkai]

Regarding Europe & immigration: the problems are highly exaggerated.

You are a optimist!
Europe will suicide with immigration tollerance.

[Mandylion]

Everyone should take a moment to reread Bossels post and check out the links. Bossel is in a better position to comment on those aspects of the issues so I will leave that to Bossel.

If you haven't read these articles on Migration from the BBC, please take a moment and have a look.

Reading Jihadjay's list of problems and solutions, I can only see how the proposed cure will make the patient even sicker.

Originally Posted by jihadjay

shouldn't Japan be selective about immigration and asylum in order to maintain confucian ethics of social order, which is fused with Shinto and Buddhist ways in Japan?

Japan does not guide its immigration policy by politico-religious associations. The above concepts you mention are nebulious even to the Japanese themselves. The average person does not walk around asking themselves if this or that fits into their "confucian ethics of social order." It is counterproductive to superimpose a system of exclusion based on a philiosophy that hasn't been activly supported since around 1868. Undoubtably Japanese culture has been influenced and shaped by the things you mention, but saying Japan should guide immigration by long-inactive philospohies is like saying Old World Puritanism should sweep America because the original immigrants were hard-core Puritans. Time and people change. We should not pigeonhole Japan into some romantic ideal.

Originally Posted by Jihadjay

This implies that Japan should allow skilled workers if shortages are apparent in certain sectors.

Japan has shown a general inability to act fast in economic matters. Just look at the banking system. Now imagine having to retool not only an immigration system but also a social structure to attract and retain migrant workers. By the time Japan selectivly opens its doors and closes them again, the damage would have already been done and the skilled labor too late to fix any problem quickly. To respond effectivly to market pressures, you need a pool of workers to draw from. This can only be done by allowing and encouraging controlled immigration consistantly and over a sustained period of time.

Originally Posted by Jihadjay

While asylum could be based on shared Buddhist values. Given this, asylum and immigration could be focused on Chinese migrants/asylum seekers, Koreans (high Christian population), and other nations like Myanmar, Thailand, and Vietnam which are mainly Buddhist.

To start with, this ignores the fact that Japanese Buddhism is very different from Buddhism in the other countries you mention. Most Japanese people would even seem un-religious in comparison. Plus, when you start granting asylum on relgious grounds, you polarize the world into political and social spheres based on a belief system - even more so than it already is. We are already having enough trouble getting along; we don't need to draw further lines between us.

Originally Posted by Jihadjay

By doing this, Japan will preserve her confucian ethics of social harmony which is fused with Shinto and Buddhism. At the same time, skilled workers would benefit Japan and not be a drain on resources.

The people in Japan I have come across who think this way, would rather see no immigration at all. The others don't feel foreigners are a threat to "Japanese-ness." If Japan want's to protect its culture, they needs to start preserving it themsleves. I have met fewer groups that are better at concreting over their history and ignoring the past. A group that consists of less than 2% of the total population is the least of Japan's problems when it comes to issues of cultural identity.

Periods of migration have always caused concern within a host nation at first. To quote Dr. Shrover of Leiden University

"Over time, the settled population has feared that newcomers would dilute the original culture, spoil the morals, steal their women (not their men of course) and bastardise the language...Fear of migrants rests upon the fear of change, and especially changes to culture. Culture is, however, not a fixed concept. Cultures change continuously over time. The cultures as we know them today are the result of centuries of migration.

But at least in Europe (apparently), two or three generations after the initial migration, people are no longer viewed as a problem. This is because

each time new groups of migrants arrived, they were considered even more problematic and different then their predecessors.

Hardly a solution, but it shows that over time a group can be assimilated into the larger national body if given half a chance.

The problem with Japan is that the government, with an insular mindset, wants little to do with any group of immigrants - from Asia, Europe, Africa, North America, or Mars. This is not due to some high-flying ideal of preserving Japanese culture or history, but just plain dis-ease with progressive change.

Japan is no paradise and neither are western nations. It is a grave, grave oversimplification to say immigration = social decline. History just has not shown that to be true. Any mass migration causes tensions, but given enough time, the host nation come out stronger and better for the trouble (in ways too tangental to go into here - check out that BBC article).

It always helps to remember when looking at social issues in Japan that society went from a pseudo-feudal footing to full-modern in about 40 years. It took Europe around 400 years. By the end of the 1800's Japan was taking on world powers and winning.

However, it is easy to politically and economically reorganize a nation. Social change always takes much longer. I won't go into the English Civil Wars and the century or so it took to establish in practice the rights of man, but the point is you cannot expect a nation to come out of complete isolation and be on an even social footing in a century for what others have been working on much, much longer.

[bossel]

Originally Posted by Shidenkai

Europe will suicide with immigration tollerance.

On the contrary: if Europe doesn't go for immigration, that would be suicide (on the long run). Eg. the German population would be shrinking without immigration. There are estimates that population will fall from 82 million now to 73 million in 2050. The German pension system is quite stable for now, but problems will increase the less payers & the more beneficiaries there are.

Similar developments are going on (& projected for the future) all over Europe (& in Japan), German population growth at the moment is -0.1%, the Europe-wide average is -0.2%.

BTW, Mandylion's link to the BBC is really recommendable!

[Ulubatli]

I have tens of grad students in Japan. They are Turk and i haven't heard any of them complaining about immigration services. They quite easily got into Japan.

After reading all the massages above, I had a notion that Turks are much more welcome to Japan than any other nationalities, or is it easy for my friends just because they are grad students?

And also my friends are advicing me to join them, i am thinking of it now... They say Japanese people very much resemble Turks and that i will have little cultural problem than that of Americans or Europeans...

If Japans do not apply precautions, Japan will be the second mainland of Turks in 50 years...

[Mandylion]

Originally Posted by Ulubatli

After reading all the massages above, I had a notion that Turks are much more welcome to Japan than any other nationalities, or is it easy for my friends just because they are grad students?

Your friends had an easy time because they are students sponsored by a school who have, in effect, told the Ministry of Justice that they will vouch for them. They didn't have an easy time of it just because they are from Turkey.

Japan loves short-term sponsored workers/students/visitors because they are just that - they will be going back to where they came from fairly soon. Becoming a permanent resident is a very, very different ballgame.

Please come to Japan, Ulabatli and enjoy yourself It is a great place and a wonderful experience.

[DaMo]

I think the best way to deal with legitimate asylum seekers is to settle them in refugee-only economically self-sufficient seclusion zones (preferably islands), until the situation in their home countries cools down, whereupon they will be returned to their native lands.

[bossel]

Originally Posted by DaMo

I think the best way to deal with legitimate asylum seekers is to settle them in refugee-only economically self-sufficient seclusion zones (preferably islands), until the situation in their home countries cools down, whereupon they will be returned to their native lands.

Bugger me! You mean something like elaborate concentration camps?
Well, besides the impracticality (economically self-sufficient?) of your idea, I think, this is not really fitting the essence of the right on asylum.

[blade]

Some of you guys are intimidated by a multi ethnic nation. Some of you are ignorant to the fact that there are nations out there such as Canada that are a complete success story when it comes to immigrants because Canada is one of the best countries to live in, due the fact that immigrants are the ones that help build this great nation. Yeah we do have our problems no doubt but if Japan looks at Canada as an example they will have more Pakistani's, Sri lankins, Jamaicans, Indian and others from around the world making Japan the # 1 2 or 3 nation just like Canada. I am teaching my Japanese students about black history and the benifits of others coming into your nation and making it better then it is now and they are listening.

[Wang]

The United States and Canada were created and built by immigrants who came from all over the world.

[Caim]

I actually did hear a lot that Turkish people were given an easier time in Japan. Like my japanese friends, whenever I would ask their families about foreigners in Japan in general they would always point out Turkish people and stuff. And my Korean friend went to Japan for three months and when she came back the first thing she said to me was, "Omg they love Turkish people!"

It kind of caught me off guard.

[Yamatoblue]

Originally Posted by bossel

On the contrary: if Europe doesn't go for immigration, that would be suicide (on the long run). Eg. the German population would be shrinking without immigration. There are estimates that population will fall from 82 million now to 73 million in 2050. The German pension system is quite stable for now, but problems will increase the less payers & the more beneficiaries there are.

Similar developments are going on (& projected for the future) all over Europe (& in Japan), German population growth at the moment is -0.1%, the Europe-wide average is -0.2%.

BTW, Mandylion's link to the BBC is really recommendable!

Ja, aber viele Deutsche hassen die Auslander...ich erinnere mich wenn ich ein kleiner Junge (1992-1996) war haben mich Leute "Auslander" genennt...
Die Auslander sind gut fur die Deutsche Wirtschaftlichkeit aber es kann man vielen Deutschen nicht erklaren. Die denken das die "Auslander" ihre Arbeit nehmen vollen.

Caim: Turkish People have a lot of history in Japan. The biggest mosque in Tokyo's is called a "Turkish Culture Center," I forgot which ku it is in. There's a mosque in Hachiouji-shi, one in Shibuya-ku. I think the turkish one is in Shibuya-ku. ANyways, Turkish people have a long history in Japan, and there are many Japanese tourists in Turkey. Many Turkish salespeople and clerks have learned Japanese.

[celtician]

Wow we've got some real Jap fascists coming out of the woodwork like "Shinden'Kamikazi"kai

[bossel]

Originally Posted by Yamatoblue

Ja, aber viele Deutsche hassen die Auslander...ich erinnere mich wenn ich ein kleiner Junge (1992-1996) war haben mich Leute "Auslander" genennt...

Well, I don't know which nationality you are, but if you are not German, you are an Ausländer (= foreigner). There is no particular negative connotation. It very much depends on the people who say it, though. The amount of people who hate foreigners is not extraordinary high in Germany. I think, the rate of racists in the population is up to 15% (to varying degrees, violent racists are less than 0.1%), which is pretty much the same all over Western Europe, AFAIK.

Die Auslander sind gut fur die Deutsche Wirtschaftlichkeit aber es kann man vielen Deutschen nicht erklaren. Die denken das die "Auslander" ihre Arbeit nehmen vollen.

That's true, actually. A lot of people do think that foreigners are taking Germans' jobs. But most people know that this is not really the case.

[Yamatoblue]

Bossel, ich komme aus Bosnien.
Naturlich bin ich in Auslander...aber in Deutschland (ich lebte in Niedersachsen, in einer kleinen Stadt, "Melle") ist das Wort etwas sehr schrekliches. Zum beispiel, ich hatte einen Freund der mit mir spielen wurde, und wenn seine Mutter mich sehen wurder wurde sie mich uberhaupt nicht angucken...warum denn? Ich werde ihr nichts tun...ich war doch 7 jahre alt! Naja, sowieso ich hoffe das die situation mit den Auslandern jetzt besser ist...bossel, woher in Deutschland lebst du?
Ich wurde gern zuruck zu Deutschland kommen aber ich jetzt muss ich hier in den Staaten zur Schule gehen.

[Gaijin 06]

Originally Posted by jihadjay

Now it is clear that the United States is the most dynamic economic nation in the world, yet her foundation was mainly based on massive Christian migration which fused together the sucess that became the United States. Of course other migrants went to this land, notably Jews and the Chinese, and of course slaves were taken against their will; yet the binding factor of the United States was a shared Christian heritage and the need to keep religion out of government.

Yet the United States, like France, the United Kingdom, and other multi-ethnic nations in modern times are plagued with enormous social problems

Your post is a complete mish-mash, and I havn't got time to point out all the consistencies, and I see others are doing so. In this short passage two things jump out though:

The US has only developed into a super-power since mass-immigration started, and it is widely recognised that immigration has been one of the keys to that success.

Also - the US hardly keeps religion out of politics - or have you never heard Dubya give a speech? The nation that is most secular (and I admire most in this aspect) - France - is cited by you as having enormous social problems.

[MiCC]

Originally Posted by blade

Some of you guys are intimidated by a multi ethnic nation. Some of you are ignorant to the fact that there are nations out there such as Canada that are a complete success story when it comes to immigrants because Canada is one of the best countries to live in, due the fact that immigrants are the ones that help build this great nation. Yeah we do have our problems no doubt but if Japan looks at Canada as an example they will have more Pakistani's, Sri lankins, Jamaicans, Indian and others from around the world making Japan the # 1 2 or 3 nation just like Canada. I am teaching my Japanese students about black history and the benifits of others coming into your nation and making it better then it is now and they are listening.

pesonally i dont think its a good idea to have many other ethnic people coming to your country. it is a proven fact that multi-ethnic countries have more social problems that homogenus countries. btw i dont think Japanese would want foreigners to take over their countries just my two cent

[nurizeko]

Bugger me! You mean something like elaborate concentration camps?
Well, besides the impracticality (economically self-sufficient?) of your idea, I think, this is not really fitting the essence of the right on asylum.

Hardly a concentration camp if a whole island thats got plenty of food and shelter is given up for them, bossel dont be fooled.

Asylum is for the persicuted not a handy way to sneak into a country like its ussually abused for.

All asylum needs to provide is a safe location with all the basic human needs for the asylum seeker to live in safety and relative happyness, un-molested until such a time as they may return.

If they want to immigrate to countries, well, thats what immigration laws and the proper official routes to immigrate are for.

Also some islands are fairly big, i know your in germany so you dont have many of them but, their hardly tiny concentration camps.

Some of you guys are intimidated by a multi ethnic nation. Some of you are ignorant to the fact that there are nations out there such as Canada that are a complete success story when it comes to immigrants because Canada is one of the best countries to live in, due the fact that immigrants are the ones that help build this great nation. Yeah we do have our problems no doubt but if Japan looks at Canada as an example they will have more Pakistani's, Sri lankins, Jamaicans, Indian and others from around the world making Japan the # 1 2 or 3 nation just like Canada. I am teaching my Japanese students about black history and the benifits of others coming into your nation and making it better then it is now and they are listening.

FAILED.

You sound exactly like those harping american patriots with lots of nice sounding buzz but little fact, but your a Canadian, you have even less basis to be all rpoud and puffed up then Americans.

No-ne cares if Canada is full of purplians.

That's true, actually. A lot of people do think that foreigners are taking Germans' jobs. But most people know that this is not really the case.

No its true, its just their taking jobs germans feel are below them, or their simply too lazy to take themselves.

If you think your too good for the likes of a crappy cleaners job, a foreigner will be more then happy to take it.

The US has only developed into a super-power since mass-immigration started, and it is widely recognised that immigration has been one of the keys to that success.

Failed.

It was Japan pushing America suddenly into world war 2 that made it a big success.

And what with blacks fighting for equal rights, japanese put away in detention camps, indians being abused and finally thrown into waste-land reservations, the immigrant communities all hiding in their own neighbourhoods of a city, america is hardly even close to the textbook example of multi-racial and cultural unity and success.

I know americans have been brought up to believe their country's *** smell's of roses and the sun shines out your *** but honestly, the united states has never been perfect.


Nothnig wrong with immigration and multi-ethnicity if a conutry is willing to make it work, still its hardly a crime if you want to keep your country for your own people, sure, it looks a bit selfish, but that could be said for the fgluttony of the west when thrid world people starve every day.
If Japan honetsly wants to stay fully japanese, then good luck to it,maybe the birth rate will come round suddenly.

Theres the vast majority of the world and at least two continents are fairly open to multi-culturalism, if Japan doesnt want us, then f**k it, no law requiring us to live there.

Still if you want to no harm in trying.

I probably cant live their myself, you need a college degree or some **** like that just to get a job....im sure it will look really great when my girlfriends future husband cant go to work because Japan has denied me the right to based on a ****** peice of paper. :/

Suffice to say if she doesnt want to live in the UK chances are its over.

Thanks alot japan you jerks.

[Gaijin 06]

Originally Posted by nurizeko

..... still its hardly a crime if you want to keep your country for your own people, sure, it looks a bit selfish ......

If Japan honetsly wants to stay fully japanese, then good luck to it.....

...

Suffice to say if she doesnt want to live in the UK chances are its over.
Thanks alot japan you jerks.

How can you reconcile the first two statements with the last.

You start off by saying it's ok for Japan to stay Japanese, and decide their own immigration policy.

You end by saying you can't get in and they're all jerks?

[gaijinalways]

Quite a cat fight. I think based on the observations offered earlier, i.e. falling birth rate and also a growing elderly population, Japan has to allow in a larger pool of workers. Whether they decide to have a permanent set or not is up to them.

Hardly a concentration camp if a whole island thats got plenty of food and shelter is given up for them, bossel dont be fooled.

Asylum is for the persicuted not a handy way to sneak into a country like its ussually abused for.

All asylum needs to provide is a safe location with all the basic human needs for the asylum seeker to live in safety and relative happyness, un-molested until such a time as they may return.
If they want to immigrate to countries, well, thats what immigration laws and the proper official routes to immigrate are for.

Also some islands are fairly big, i know your in germany so you dont have many of them but, their hardly tiny concentration camps.

Nurizeko, you're not related to one of my students are you? When we discussed immigration issues in a debate/discussion class I taught, one student raised the issue of all foreigners in Japan living in separate areas.

Don't you realize many people that left their countries under asylum probably may never be able to return in their lifetimes? So how would imprisoning them on an island help this situation? A good example is a recent Afghanstani who decided to change his religion. A religious death sentence was issued. What sane person would want to return to that?

It was Japan pushing America suddenly into world war 2 that made it a big success.

I would agree that a military backed foreign policy has fueled some of the US success story, but hardly that Japan made the US successful. We've needed a lot of other wars to keep that part of the economy going, though recently, that has had the opposite affect with the Iraq 'war' plunging the US government into a cycle of 'patriotic debt'. The US technology and information age is what has fueled the US economy recently, and we are now looking for the next generation of commerce (possibly biotech?) to fuel an over leveraged economy.


To get back to the main topic, Japan doesn't deal well now with Koreans who were born here and visiting foreigners. Changing the average citizen's attitude to foreigners will take a long time, but that doesn't mean that no effort should be made to do it. As to how selective they should be in allowing people in, that is up to Japan, but losing its culture is an overstated fear in my opinion. It's this kind of paranoia that fuels Japanese xenophobia and reinforces their non-immigration policy (and also in turn perhaps reinforces the absence of Japanese as a major language in the world).

[nurizeko]

Originally Posted by Gaijin 06

How can you reconcile the first two statements with the last.
You start off by saying it's ok for Japan to stay Japanese, and decide their own immigration policy.
You end by saying you can't get in and they're all jerks?

I said Japan can decide to make whatever policies it wants in regard to immigration, nobody else has the right to decide on Japan but the Japanese, i didnt say i agreed with it.

You fail.

[Tokyo-monster]

Originally Posted by jihadjay

Now it is clear that the United States is the most dynamic economic nation in the world.

That is a load of political crap
Canada is BY FAR more dynamic than the United States, and everyone in the entire world seems to know this except for the US. And... an economic nation? The economy of the US is cracking.