do or doh?

shintemaster · Jul 25, 2002, 09:25

Not particularly important but I was wondering if any other long term J-addicts have stories about prononciation probs for Japanese students studying English. Here's one which has always baffled me...

I'm sure you're all aware of the Japanese penchant for placing vowels on the end of words, usually to the extant that they just aren't capable of correcting it. Kaado, Smiru. Just a couple of examples (Card, Smile) ((I HATE Romaji!!!)

Anyway I once worked in Japan with a man named Ricardo. For the life of me we could not seem to get students to pronounce the 'o'. Funny in that completely frustrating way because two minutes later they'd be adding it to other words...

Strange world

Maciamo · Jul 25, 2002, 12:42

Note that Japanese say "Guch" for Gucci, without pronoucing the last "i". The same happens with lots of foreign words. They always seem to mistake ; add a vowel when they shoudn't and don't say it when it's needed.

shintemaster · Jul 25, 2002, 15:01

Absolutely! I had this running thing going where I would tell my students to do the opposite of whatever they were going to do!

thomas · Jul 25, 2002, 18:45

Definitetely doh. Sorry, couldn't resist...

moyashi · Jul 25, 2002, 19:19

maciamo ... you've been hanging out in roppongi too much.

hmmm, no wonder you posted about enjo kousai ....

Seriously though, I've only heard "Gu-chi".

I bet most of the trouble comes from having vowel-constant characters and bad pronuciation picked up from the missionaries and sailors who first came close to 300 years ago.

samuraitora · Jul 25, 2002, 22:40

yumisan told me that one reason they tend to drop letters and vowels from foreign words, so they can distiguish the difference and also to keep their language more pure.

That is what her dad said.

Maciamo · Jul 25, 2002, 23:57

Hey, I almost never go to Roppongi. This is the only place I don't like in Tokyo.

For the Enjo Kosai, that's probably more in Ginza (where the young babes spent their easily gotten money), Shinjuku (Kabukicho, above all) or Shibuya (no wonder it's full of love hotel)that you'll see it.

moyashi · Jul 26, 2002, 09:31

@ keeping language pure
hmm ... well, they're not trying like that French are ... I'll check on this with [kokugo] (Japanese teachers) I know. Maybe miyuki here might know too??

@ enjo kousai
hehe, fashion wise Shibuya is the place for me. I'll stay away from kabukicho since I have a friend who works in 2 chome.

Great guy but still, not my style.

The girls probably stick close to their offices.

miyuki · Jul 28, 2002, 12:54

Guch,Gucci,Gu-chi....
We understand foreign words in katakana.
When I hear 'Gucci,' it reminds me katakana words-'グッチ(Gu-tti).’
For us, it is not easy to pronounce 'tti' sound.
Sometimes it is prononciated only in our mouth.
So you heard it differently,I guess.

When I learned how to teach Japanese to foreign people,our teacher said,'You have to correct their English to Japanese katakana sounds so that other Japanese can understand it.'
For example,'calender' is 'カレンダー (ca-le-n-daa).'
As Japanese accent is not stress one, you may hear so different.

miyuki · Jul 28, 2002, 13:44

"they tend to drop letters and vowels from foreign words..."

Ricardo-san...should we pronounce his name 'リッカルドウ (ri-kkaru-dou)さん’？OK!I will.
On writting katakana,リッカルドウ is not usual.
We may write 'リッカルドー（ri-kkaru-doo).’
But you feel 'doo' and 'dou' is different....

ギョエテ(by Ogai Mori,Meiji)、ゲーテ=Goethe
ヴィヲロン(by Bin Ueda,Meiji)、バイオリン、ヴァイオリン＝violin
In Meiji period,people wrote English in katakana as they'd heard.
As a result, we have different katakana words with one English.
Now Monbukagaku-Syo shows the guideline.

We incline to understand English in katakana.→It brings us different pronounciations!

When you'll teach English to Japanese students,please adviｓe them(include meeee) to hear your prononciations carefully
and believe their ears but katakana.

*ギョエテとはおれのことかとゲーテいい（川柳）＊

Jul 25, 2002, 09:25	#1
shintemaster Regular Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 46	do or doh? Not particularly important but I was wondering if any other long term J-addicts have stories about prononciation probs for Japanese students studying English. Here's one which has always baffled me... I'm sure you're all aware of the Japanese penchant for placing vowels on the end of words, usually to the extant that they just aren't capable of correcting it. Kaado, Smiru. Just a couple of examples (Card, Smile) ((I HATE Romaji!!!) Anyway I once worked in Japan with a man named Ricardo. For the life of me we could not seem to get students to pronounce the 'o'. Funny in that completely frustrating way because two minutes later they'd be adding it to other words... Strange world

Jul 25, 2002, 12:42	#2
Maciamo Decommissioned ex-admin Join Date: Jul 17, 2002 Location: Austrasia Posts: 6,647	Note that Japanese say "Guch" for Gucci, without pronoucing the last "i". The same happens with lots of foreign words. They always seem to mistake ; add a vowel when they shoudn't and don't say it when it's needed. __________________ Over 100 destinations in the Japan Sightseeing Guide + detailed Tokyo Guide and Kyoto Guide Eupedia : Your Guide to Europe in English Read the "Maciamo FAQ" "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

Jul 25, 2002, 19:19	#5
moyashi Regular Member Join Date: Apr 15, 2002 Location: SonyLand Age: 40 Posts: 1,566	maciamo ... you've been hanging out in roppongi too much. hmmm, no wonder you posted about enjo kousai .... Seriously though, I've only heard "Gu-chi". I bet most of the trouble comes from having vowel-constant characters and bad pronuciation picked up from the missionaries and sailors who first came close to 300 years ago. __________________ crazy gonna crazy

Jul 25, 2002, 22:40	#6
samuraitora Regular Member Join Date: May 29, 2002 Location: Detroit MI Age: 35 Posts: 782	yumisan told me that one reason they tend to drop letters and vowels from foreign words, so they can distiguish the difference and also to keep their language more pure. That is what her dad said. __________________ ja mata samuraitora (^_-)/

Jul 28, 2002, 12:54	#9
miyuki Regular Member Join Date: Jul 9, 2002 Location: japan Posts: 205	Guch,Gucci,Gu-chi.... We understand foreign words in katakana. When I hear 'Gucci,' it reminds me katakana words-'グッチ(Gu-tti).’ For us, it is not easy to pronounce 'tti' sound. Sometimes it is prononciated only in our mouth. So you heard it differently,I guess. When I learned how to teach Japanese to foreign people,our teacher said,'You have to correct their English to Japanese katakana sounds so that other Japanese can understand it.' For example,'calender' is 'カレンダー (ca-le-n-daa).' As Japanese accent is not stress one, you may hear so different. Last edited by miyuki; Jul 28, 2002 at 13:00.

Jul 25, 2002, 15:01	#3
shintemaster Regular Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 46	Absolutely! I had this running thing going where I would tell my students to do the opposite of whatever they were going to do!

Jul 25, 2002, 23:57	#7
Maciamo Decommissioned ex-admin Join Date: Jul 17, 2002 Location: Austrasia Posts: 6,647	Hey, I almost never go to Roppongi. This is the only place I don't like in Tokyo. For the Enjo Kosai, that's probably more in Ginza (where the young babes spent their easily gotten money), Shinjuku (Kabukicho, above all) or Shibuya (no wonder it's full of love hotel)that you'll see it.

Jul 26, 2002, 09:31	#8
moyashi Regular Member Join Date: Apr 15, 2002 Location: SonyLand Age: 40 Posts: 1,566	@ keeping language pure hmm ... well, they're not trying like that French are ... I'll check on this with [kokugo] (Japanese teachers) I know. Maybe miyuki here might know too?? @ enjo kousai hehe, fashion wise Shibuya is the place for me. I'll stay away from kabukicho since I have a friend who works in 2 chome. Great guy but still, not my style. The girls probably stick close to their offices.

Jul 28, 2002, 13:44	#10
miyuki Regular Member Join Date: Jul 9, 2002 Location: japan Posts: 205	"they tend to drop letters and vowels from foreign words..." Ricardo-san...should we pronounce his name 'リッカルドウ (ri-kkaru-dou)さん’？OK!I will. On writting katakana,リッカルドウ is not usual. We may write 'リッカルドー（ri-kkaru-doo).’ But you feel 'doo' and 'dou' is different.... ギョエテ(by Ogai Mori,Meiji)、ゲーテ=Goethe ヴィヲロン(by Bin Ueda,Meiji)、バイオリン、ヴァイオリン＝violin In Meiji period,people wrote English in katakana as they'd heard. As a result, we have different katakana words with one English. Now Monbukagaku-Syo shows the guideline. We incline to understand English in katakana.→It brings us different pronounciations! When you'll teach English to Japanese students,please adviｓe them(include meeee) to hear your prononciations carefully and believe their ears but katakana. ギョエテとはおれのことかとゲーテいい（川柳）＊ Last edited by miyuki; Jul 28, 2002 at 13:50.*

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