Online Meditation

[Satori]

http://www.meditainment.com/broadband.html

[Hidden_Wisdom]

I would just like to say Thank you for making a Thread on this Topic,This has brought a smile to my face being able to learn this method.ThANK YOU ONCE AGAIN.

[mad pierrot]

Satori,
From your name and posts,
I'm curious if you sit zazen, with whom, and for how long.

[Uncle Frank]

Sits for no man or God !!!!

Frank

[Satori]

Satori !!!!

Sits for no man or God !!!!

Frank

Good one, Frank!
_____________________

Hidden Wisdom -

You are very welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed this. I know I thought it was very nice. I've always enjoyed meditation tapes/videos.
______________________

Mad Pierrot -

I do meditate and have been meditating since the mid-'70s or so, but I don't sit Zazen (I probably should, though!). My meditation experiences vary quite a bit, actually. Sometimes I meditate simply to clear the accumulated "stuff," for lack of a better word. And at other times, I use meditation for purposes of self-exploration. Sometimes both! I have used meditation to explore past lives, as well as health problems--both physical and emotional--and even relationship issues. Back in the mid-'80s, I learned how to read auras and chakras and to perform energy healings, and so sometimes I spend time doing healing work on either myself or others. So it really just depends. When I have a difficult issue that needs to be addressed, I will most likely view it in meditation in a non-attached way--simply witnessing the experience, without forming any conclusions or making any judgments as to whether it's positive or negative, right or wrong, good or bad, etc. It's what's known as "choiceless awareness," and it's extremely effective at achieving clarity. But, then again, there are times when I like to use videos or CDs as guided imagery just for fun. That's why I, too, liked the link above.

Do you meditate? If so, what type of meditation do you do?

[mad pierrot]

Thanks for answering!

I used to be a very ardent student of Soto Zen. I no longer practice zazen, but I still consider myself a "student" of Zen. I was curious as to your thoughts on Zen in Japan. In Japan, I find Zen has been greatly reduced to blind traditions, having lost momentum as a radical faction. Far too conservative in my books. No disrespect intended to Japanese Buddhists.

[Satori]

I like Zen too. I'm not as familiar with it as most, however, so I really couldn't answer your question. But you might want to check out this link to the Zen Buddhism section of E-Sangha:

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showforum=6

Maybe you could even ask them about it! The people at E-Sangha are great!!

By the way, "Kakuzen" over here is "Hui Kung" over there.

[Satori]

Here's something I posted over there on Zen poetry:

Philomene Long/John Thomas
ZEN POEMS II

Piercing Stone with the Eye of Zen



Photo of John & Philomene at Red Rocks by John & Philomene

Want to rise to the peaks of Zen?
The stairs to the roof begin
in the bottom of the dumpster.

--John Thomas


Sit Zen so strong
You could crack a stone.

--Philomene Long


A MEDITATION (OR SO SAY)
Venice, 2000

The caves are deep, all entrances concealed. Great
vaulted galleries lie far below. Long, thin, down-hanging
spears of selenite (or so say) glisten on the enormous
ceilings. Unseeable. Known. Everywhere. On the huge
stones of the floor, invisibly sparkly needles grow,
singing silently. Mirabilite (or so say). From crystal
filaments, thin as human hair, water drips inthis absolute
dark likkke tiniest chimes, foever, into still black lake after
lake after lake.
The caverns are deep?deep and blind (or so say)?
and they know. Great hidden meditation (or so say), the
entrance far back in the neck of this narrow unmapped
canyon.
?Welcome. Yes. Come in.?

--John Thomas


THE LORDS OF NOTHINGNESS: THE LAST OF TRAPALANDA
Venice, 2000

All night, all day, all night again,
The lords of nothingness float brooding across this,
our paralyzed, prostrate, stagnant world.
To the touch, the lords of nothingness
have a quasi-human texture,
but with coarse, metaphorical embellishments
and a value equivalent to one?s own cadaver.
The lords of nothingness:
they push hard against the future with their scaly backs
and are fiercely cruel to objects.
The lords of nothingness:
pursuant to their instructions,
let us climb deep into the wide-mouth final cave,
kneel in the bat-droppings,
and pray.

--John Thomas


HERE LIE THE FOUR TREASURES OF THIS WORLD
for Philomene Venice, 2000

By a stone at the bottom of a shallow spring beside a path,
once a road, past a ruined wooden building on South Mountain,
lies a brown-speckled orange newt.
In a line on a page in a book out of sight on a shelf
a cluttered close away,
lies the word ?plangent.?
Over the small room in which he has played
?Les Amonts de Teruel? on his old harmonica,
lies the silence just after.
After seventeen years, in a cool dimness,
soft on the palate in his remembering mind, lie the taste and fragrance
of her cupped right palm.

--John Thomas


GENESIS

Before the beginning
Alone. No hand cutting the night
No lips opening in
The velvet and speechless black
Alone. Always alone
Forever young, the beginingless
The luminous
Silence
Before the water longed to
Comb through the sands
The wind to play with the grass
The word
And from the unnamable
There is one birth, one death
Immense, yet, one small cup contains it
There is one book, one writer
And the reader, the writer, the book
Are one

--Philomene Long


THE HOUR OF THE WORLD

It is difficult to know
The hour of the world
If it is not reached in silence
The eyes
Silent
The lips
Parted
In a smile
Which is silent
The ears
Hear
Things so silent
The breath
The eyes
Move
But they do not move
They are like silent moons
On the lips
A smile which is silent
With only the breath
The breath
Nothing but the breath
The hour of the world
Still
Your hands
Do not move
But they reach
In silence

--Philomene Long

***
Silence, I know, loves me.

--John Thomas

http://www.mindspring.com/~sagriffin/ZenPoems2.html

[Satori]

Hi everyone!

I just discovered these guided meditations at Belief.net and thought you might like them too. Here's the link:

http://www.belief.net/index/index_207.html


Satori

[Satori]

If anyone is interested in exploring past lives using CDs, this site has quite a few CDs on the subject:

http://www.prohypnosis.com/html/past...taphysics.html

This particular CD is one of my favorites, and you can even sample a portion of it at the above link:



Ultra-Depth Past-Life Regression

ULTRA-DEPTH -- The ultimate hypnotic induction plus unique subjective explorations. If you've never been entirely satisfied with your past-life regressions, you may need to go "deeper." If your regression experiences have been wonderful, they may be awesome when you go "deeper." If you've never been regressed, start with the best.

Dick Sutphen's Ultra-Depth Hypnosis technique generates the ultimate altered-state-of-consciousness. Following a full body relaxation and self-release suggestion, Dick begins a 40-minute hypnotic induction that guides you down long steps to a beautiful garden. For a few minutes you explore and enjoy the garden, enhanced with 3-D sound effects that make it real.

Next, you descend more steps, going deeper into an altered-state, until you reach a wildflower meadow and cozy cabin. Again, you enjoy the environment and effects.

Finally you descend many tiers of stairs to a sandy beach where you relax and play for awhile before wandering down the beach to a cave in an outcropping of rocks. You feel secure about entering the cave where an enlightening adventure awaits. Dick says, "You're ready to explore so you boldly enter the cave ... moving from the light into total darkness ... safely guided, deeper and deeper and deeper into the darkness." You'll soon begin to see light in the distance: "... and as you walk toward the light, your Higher mind is choosing a past life that will be of most value for you to explore at this time."

While re-experiencing this past life, Dick directs you from event to event, asking you a question, then giving you time to perceive answers in the form of visualizations or inner knowing.

This is the ultimate past-life regression. With continued use, it will help you to understand all your motivations, aversions and restrictions:

* A workaholic man, in regression, observed himself burying his child who had starved to death in a famine. Today, to avoid such devastating pain, he works night and day to make sure his children are always fed. False-fear karma.

* A woman art director saw herself serving as a male apprentice to a prominent portrait painter in Renaissance Italy. Balancing and reward karma.

* A young woman with a birthmark on her arm regressed to 1938 and observed herself sitting before a fireplace. A large coal popped out and landed on her arm, causing a severe burn. Physical carry-over karma .

* A man fearful of responsibility, saw himself as a sea captain who abandoned his burning ship in the first lifeboat, leaving many of his crew to die. Balancing karma.

* A woman wanting to write New Age articles broke into a trembling sweat every time she tried. In regression she saw herself being burned at the stake for communicating similar ideas. False-fear karma.

* An overly possessive husband observed a life in which the roles were reversed, and his mate (his wife in this life) ran away with a lover, leaving him alone to raise three children. Balancing karma.

Knowing the cause of your conflicts can often free you from the effects. At the very least, you'll know why you feel as you do, which is the first step to resolving the fear.

You can use Ultra-Depth Past-Life Regression over and over , always learning about new lives or new aspects of incarnations you're already aware of. Or gather a group of friends for a group regression. You'll all have plenty to talk about for a long time to come.

Available in CD or cassette, but with the cassette you'll need an auto-reverse tape player, or have someone who isn't hypnotized turn the tape over. Perfectly safe. Comes with complete instructions.

CD: UD101 -- $20.00

[spyny]

It's always dangerous to practice meditation (and everything like kundalini yoga, astral traveling) without an authentic master and teachings.

Because it's easy to make ego-trips / get crazy.

In Buddhism, it is said that meditation without knowledge, that is WITH ignorance, leads to animal rebirth.

Relaxation is one thing, but meditation brings either awakening, or stupor...stupidity!

The higher you climb, the greater you risk.

[Satori]

Originally Posted by spyny

It's always dangerous to practice meditation (and everything like kundalini yoga, astral traveling) without an authentic master and teachings.

Because it's easy to make ego-trips / get crazy.

In Buddhism, it is said that meditation without knowledge, that is WITH ignorance, leads to animal rebirth.

Relaxation is one thing, but meditation brings either awakening, or stupor...stupidity!

The higher you climb, the greater you risk.

That's merely fear-based ego talking. Ego knows that the higher you evolve spiritually, the less duality there is; hence, the less control ego mind has over you. However, if ego can keep you from evolving into higher awareness, then it can remain in control through its fears. It also has to do with where you place your focus. What you focus on, you draw to you. Therefore, the higher you evolve, the less control ego and its fears have on you and your life.

[spyny]

Hello Satori,

how long and how often have you practiced meditation and else so that you can state that?

I'm not saying that everybody has to have a master, but you seem to say that no one needs a master. If you do not, then we agree with each other, and in that case, your answer has practically no use.

I can tell you that I've met people getting -litterally- mentally ill by practicing meditation or rituals. Or after a spiritual retreat.

And I have heard many other stories of people getting mad as well.

If it takes so long to attain enlightenment, it is because ego is that "wicked."

Let's say you have a thought or a feeling (in the sense spiritual experience), even if you are pretty advanced on the way, how can you be sure that *it* has to do with divinity or ego, since ego has still a control over yourself?

Masters are practically inevitable - it seems - in all esoteric paths, at least I'm sure for Buddhism (Vajrayana and Zen), Islam (sufism to be precise) and Hinduism (Tantricism, etc).

A novice practitionner who practices alone, despises masters and think he knows because he reads books and articles on the Internet, is a crank, a neo-hippy guru-of-a-sect-to-be, or just a mental of tomorrow.

I forgot : OR a quasi enlightened being. (at a stage where there's no ladder to climb).

And often the motivation to practice without a master, is arrogance - thinking that one is wise or strong enough to make it on one's own, and not wanting to lose a certain control over oneself, I mean being guided by someone. Because, our friend Mister Ego never wants to lose control, he is the one that has to keep the power.

In that way, spiritual practice is a kind of self-defeat, a way of ceasing the will to win, which is hardly possible alone.

I've met a great master of Tibetan trantricism who had practiced alone in a cave for 30 yrs...but he had a lama.

An alternative to having a master is to practice in couple or in a community (to get feedbacks), but I guess in MOST cases, without a guide, you end splitting up.

[Satori]

how long and how often have you practiced meditation and else so that you can state that?

Obviously you didn't read the entire thread; otherwise, you would have known the answer to that! I have been meditating since the mid-'70s and have even taught meditation classes over the years. From your posts, I think you are confusing meditation with a lot of other practices. Meditation has never been a problem for anyone, unless they are involved with some type of false guru cult type of situation, in which case ANYTHING that transpired would not be good! But meditation, in and of itself, is not a problem. Quite the contrary--it can be extremely beneficial!!

I'm not saying that everybody has to have a master, but you seem to say that no one needs a master. If you do not, then we agree with each other, and in that case, your answer has practically no use.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth. I don't appreciate people who try to do that. Also, I would appreciate it if you would please refrain from demonstrating such hostility towards my posts in the future.

I can tell you that I've met people getting -litterally- mentally ill by practicing meditation or rituals. Or after a spiritual retreat.

I think you are confusing the benefits of meditation with the effects of some types of pathology that some people are operating off of to begin with! There are a lot of mentally ill people who are drawn to meditation but who would do better to get their mental illness under control BEFORE beginning a meditation practice!

A novice practitionner who practices alone, despises masters and think he knows because he reads books and articles on the Internet, is a crank, a neo-hippy guru-of-a-sect-to-be, or just a mental of tomorrow.

...

And often the motivation to practice without a master, is arrogance - thinking that one is wise or strong enough to make it on one's own, and not wanting to lose a certain control over oneself, I mean being guided by someone. Because, our friend Mister Ego never wants to lose control, he is the one that has to keep the power.

I'm afraid Buddha would have to disagree with you on that one!!! LOL. And so would a LOT of monks and lamas!

Also, let's not confuse a "master" with a "teacher." You keep referring to "masters," yet you also fail to point out all of the abuses that have occurred through the master/disciple relationship over the years. Sometimes that relationship works out very well, but most of the time, it doesn't. And sometimes a person has to "shop around" for a new master!! For instance, I personally know of someone who is in a guru/disciple relationship, and it works beautifully for him! But that is very rare, indeed, as most gurus/masters will tell you. Frankly, more harm has come from the abuses of gurus/masters--even well-meaning ones!--than has ever come from someone simply studying on their own. However, I will ad one caveat: In the area of Tibetan tantric practices, it is considered essential to have a master. There is still disagreement about kundalini practice in general, however. Some say you absolutely have to have a guru to guide you in that area, while others disagree. I know shamans in the Native American tradition would disagree with that, while most Hindu gurus would say that it is essential. It just depends on the people and system involved, really.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the master/disciple relationship, as I think it can be extremely dangerous and cause way too many problems when not handled properly. But that's my personal choice, and I believe each person should be free to choose whatever is right for them. The only thing I object to is someone pushing one way or the other, without simply educating so that other people can make an individual choice one way or the other. That is why I felt the need to respond to your original post. It seemed you weren't simply educating but, rather, advocating a particular view. For instance, you'll notice I have only talked about my own views and personal experience on this thread when asked by other members, including yourself. However, I should point out that so there's no confusion that I do think it's nice to have teachers, imparting their knowledge either through direct instruction or books, videos, etc.--just not "masters" who demand you give up total control to them.


You know, I have to say, from your post here, I can't help but be reminded of a man I met a few months ago at an online Buddhist community. He was under the influence of a psychic in Arizona, much in the same way that people become victims of a cult leader or false guru. This man's power and belief system were completely given over to this woman, and he was terrified of even meditating on his own--she had him that much under her control--and this was a 50-year-old man!! She had him totally convinced that meditation was wrong unless it was done through her control. It was sad. All this woman was doing was keeping this man trapped in ignorance and fear--while she made sure she received her money! I never said anything to this man, as he simply shared that bit of information about himself and his fears of meditation. Moreover, he wasn't asking for my opinion, so I didn't feel the need to share my thoughts with him. But I truly felt sorry for him!! As a consequence, he is completely trapped in ego-consciousness and all its fears as a result. When looking at this man's energy, it's very, very dark (which indicates a negative influence, as well as fear), and you can see that he is "corded" through his seventh chakra (his belief system) by this psychic--totally controlled by her. Just unreal ... and really sad, to say the least! If this man had meditated, he would have been able to see that, to be able to recognize a good teacher from a bad teacher, and to break free of her control!! But there's a lesson in that karmic situation for him to learn that has to do with power and control in the world--both the physical and the non-physical realms--and that's what he's in the process of doing, hopefully.

[spyny]

Originally Posted by Satori

Obviously you didn't read the entire thread; otherwise, you would have known the answer to that! I have been meditating since the mid-'70s and have even taught meditation classes over the years.

I'm impressed. But the amount of time doesn't necessarily mean anything, especially if you've practiced in a unproper way, not that i want to contradict myself.

Meditation has never been a problem for anyone, unless they are involved with some type of false guru cult type of situation, in which case ANYTHING that transpired would not be good! But meditation, in and of itself, is not a problem. Quite the contrary--it can be extremely beneficial!!

Of course the problem isn't meditation. It's the very person who practices it. I think we agree on this point.

I think you are confusing the benefits of meditation with the effects of some types of pathology that some people are operating off of to begin with! There are a lot of mentally ill people who are drawn to meditation but who would do better to get their mental illness under control BEFORE beginning a meditation practice!

It happens that most of us, and I include myself -considered normal- are "mentally ill", the "self" just keeps the balance. You learn that in psychology...and Buddhism.

Therefore someone who believes he is normal should question himself many times... And we think that crazy people are only those in psychatric hospitals. Indeed, Buddha said we are fundamentally ill, hence our "confusion."

Then, to know if you need a master (and you don't need to take it in the sense of a master of the ancient times), you need to know how much you are or are not "ill". And for that, you need someone more advanced than you are to tell you. A mad man will hardly say he's mad.

A novice practitionner who practices alone, despises masters and think he knows because he reads books and articles on the Internet, is a crank, a neo-hippy guru-of-a-sect-to-be, or just a mental of tomorrow.

...

And often the motivation to practice without a master, is arrogance - thinking that one is wise or strong enough to make it on one's own, and not wanting to lose a certain control over oneself, I mean being guided by someone. Because, our friend Mister Ego never wants to lose control, he is the one that has to keep the power.

I'm afraid Buddha would have to disagree with you on that one!!! LOL. And so would a LOT of monks and lamas!

I'm not that sure. Buddha said "he would manifest" again under the form of "masters" (I guess he said "guru" in his language, which means master or guide), in order to guide people. The importance of masters is that they are the closest guides to ordinary people.
Well, have you been to a monastery ? because it seems they are not one monk without a master (a lama), a lama without his own lama (except for deprecated lineages).
Buddha was a master, his disciples became masters and so on.

Also, let's not confuse a "master" with a "teacher." You keep referring to "masters," yet you also fail to point out all of the abuses that have occurred through the master/disciple relationship over the years.

It is true that many abuses have occurred (though saying many isn't meaningful, because relative), but always by fake gurus, like Osho Rajneesh. You're not saying if genuine gurus have made abuses, and I believe this is not the case, that's my point.

I mean, isn't that obvious that a fake gurus make abuses?
How many doctors abuse of their patients? we have to be viligent as often as possible, that's life.

"Master" and "teacher" could mean the same or not the same thing depending on your definition, that' how some people get deceived.

Frankly, more harm has come from the abuses of gurus/masters--even well-meaning ones!--than has ever come from someone simply studying on their own.

I don't give any credit to that kind of statements : do you know all the spiritual practitionners on Earth?
And of course I'm sure the media deal with almost only the gurus of sects, so you hear more about "bad things" than "good ones."

However, I will ad one caveat: In the area of Tibetan tantric practices, it is considered essential to have a master.

That's why i didn't understand why you said lama's would not agree with me. But as I said, you also have sufism, and what about Zen? do you know in the history of Japanese Zen, a great master who didn't have a master? I bet you don't.

There is still disagreement about kundalini practice in general, however. Some say you absolutely have to have a guru to guide you in that area, while others disagree. I know shamans in the Native American tradition would disagree with that, while most Hindu gurus would say that it is essential. It just depends on the people and system involved, really.

I guess all the hippies would want the kundalini practice available for everyone. I think none of the genuine practitionners wish that. "Guru" isn't a word from India?

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the master/disciple relationship, as I think it can be extremely dangerous and cause way too many problems when not handled properly.

I think it depends on the master.

Anyway, I think you push it too much to the extreme. By master, I meant someone who has a longer experience and a certain degree of realization, to prevent you from fall into the traps of the path. And to be sure that person is a genuine master, you have to check by yourself, ask how other masters you trust think of him, etc.
And it's not about believing blindly what he says, but giving him trust for the things he do as you feel they are right...like a doctor actually. Don't go to a doctor you don't trust!

A teacher of a lesser quality is fine too, be he might make more (many?) mistakes, and as long as you don't trust him, it won't bring a lot of benefit. There's saying in the West like "who risks nothing gets nothing".

But that's my personal choice, and I believe each person should be free to choose whatever is right for them. The only thing I object to is someone pushing one way or the other, without simply educating so that other people can make an individual choice one way or the other.

I agree with that.

That is why I felt the need to respond to your original post. It seemed you weren't simply educating but, rather, advocating a particular view. For instance, you'll notice I have only talked about my own views and personal experience on this thread when asked by other members, including yourself.

I'm sorry, but i gave some explanations. And maybe people will give more credits to what the Buddha said, and the experience of great masters than yours. And I did talked about my own experience, as I said I've met people who got crazy after years of meditation, kundalini etc. (and they were "normal" in the beginning, as much as you and me).

Let me quote Gampopa, Tibetan doctor, scholar, monk and Tantric master, disciple of Milarepa, from the book "Gems of Dharma, Jewels of Freedom" :
It has been reasoned: '...given that you wish to attain omniscience, you need to enter into relation with good mentors because by yourself you know neither how to accrue spiritual wealth nor how to dispel obscurations.'

However, I should point out that so there's no confusion that I do think it's nice to have teachers, imparting their knowledge either through direct instruction or books, videos, etc.--just not "masters" who demand you give up total control to them.

if a master demands you that, he's not a genuine master. I think you mix things up. For example, I wouldn't call the Dalai Lama just a teacher, he is master.

True faith is not forced by the master, it comes from the heart of the disciple. It is not - again - compulsory to trust a master, or a doctor. You have to check for yourself first. If you don't trust your doctor, and you don't tell him everything, and you don't follow his prescription, the diagnosis will be erroneous, the treatment not efficient, and I doubt the doctor will heal you. And it often takes a lot of time to trust a master, but there's no hurry.

In short, if your trust of faith makes you blind, then it's neither trust or faith, it's stupidity.

I hope you understand the analogy with the doctor, this is crucial.

[Satori]

Originally Posted by spyny

I'm impressed. But the amount of time doesn't necessarily mean anything, especially if you've practiced in a unproper way, not that i want to contradict myself.


Of course the problem isn't meditation. It's the very person who practices it. I think we agree on this point.


It happens that most of us, and I include myself -considered normal- are "mentally ill", the "self" just keeps the balance. You learn that in psychology...and Buddhism.

Therefore someone who believes he is normal should question himself many times... And we think that crazy people are only those in psychatric hospitals



. Indeed, Buddha said we are fundamentally ill, hence our "confusion."

Then, to know if you need a master (and you don't need to take it in the sense of a master of the ancient times), you need to know how much you are or are not "ill". And for that, you need someone more advanced than you are to tell you. A mad man will hardly say he's mad.



I'm not that sure. Buddha said "he would manifest" again under the form of "masters" (I guess he said "guru" in his language, which means master or guide), in order to guide people. The importance of masters is that they are the closest guides to ordinary people.
Well, have you been to a monastery ? because it seems they are not one monk without a master (a lama), a lama without his own lama (except for deprecated lineages).
Buddha was a master, his disciples became masters and so on.



It is true that many abuses have occurred (though saying many isn't meaningful, because relative), but always by fake gurus, like Osho Rajneesh. You're not saying if genuine gurus have made abuses, and I believe this is not the case, that's my point.

I mean, isn't that obvious that a fake gurus make abuses?
How many doctors abuse of their patients? we have to be viligent as often as possible, that's life.

"Master" and "teacher" could mean the same or not the same thing depending on your definition, that' how some people get deceived.


I don't give any credit to that kind of statements : do you know all the spiritual practitionners on Earth?
And of course I'm sure the media deal with almost only the gurus of sects, so you hear more about "bad things" than "good ones."


That's why i didn't understand why you said lama's would not agree with me. But as I said, you also have sufism, and what about Zen? do you know in the history of Japanese Zen, a great master who didn't have a master? I bet you don't.


I guess all the hippies would want the kundalini practice available for everyone. I think none of the genuine practitionners wish that. "Guru" isn't a word from India?


I think it depends on the master.

Anyway, I think you push it too much to the extreme. By master, I meant someone who has a longer experience and a certain degree of realization, to prevent you from fall into the traps of the path. And to be sure that person is a genuine master, you have to check by yourself, ask how other masters you trust think of him, etc.
And it's not about believing blindly what he says, but giving him trust for the things he do as you feel they are right...like a doctor actually. Don't go to a doctor you don't trust!

A teacher of a lesser quality is fine too, be he might make more (many?) mistakes, and as long as you don't trust him, it won't bring a lot of benefit. There's saying in the West like "who risks nothing gets nothing".


I agree with that.


I'm sorry, but i gave some explanations. And maybe people will give more credits to what the Buddha said, and the experience of great masters than yours. And I did talked about my own experience, as I said I've met people who got crazy after years of meditation, kundalini etc. (and they were "normal" in the beginning, as much as you and me).

Let me quote Gampopa, Tibetan doctor, scholar, monk and Tantric master, disciple of Milarepa, from the book "Gems of Dharma, Jewels of Freedom" :
It has been reasoned: '...given that you wish to attain omniscience, you need to enter into relation with good mentors because by yourself you know neither how to accrue spiritual wealth nor how to dispel obscurations.'


if a master demands you that, he's not a genuine master. I think you mix things up. For example, I wouldn't call the Dalai Lama just a teacher, he is master.

True faith is not forced by the master, it comes from the heart of the disciple. It is not - again - compulsory to trust a master, or a doctor. You have to check for yourself first. If you don't trust your doctor, and you don't tell him everything, and you don't follow his prescription, the diagnosis will be erroneous, the treatment not efficient, and I doubt the doctor will heal you. And it often takes a lot of time to trust a master, but there's no hurry.

In short, if your trust of faith makes you blind, then it's neither trust or faith, it's stupidity.

I hope you understand the analogy with the doctor, this is crucial.

Unfortunately, we don't agree on ANYTHING. Why all the fear, Spyny????!! You're completely full of FEAR. Why is that? What happened to you in your life that has made you this way? Are you currently under a doctor's care? I'm so sorry you are this fearful and this hateful towards others. I really am. This is a thread about "Online Meditation," pure and simple, in case you failed to read it fully. Why you felt the need to start pushing your fears, your mixed-up viewpoints, and personal attacks on me, I'll never know. But I certainly don't intend to dignify your weird, fearful "logic" (if I can even call it that). My God, like I said, you remind me soooooo much of that man!!!! And I think that alone speaks volumes!!!! By the way, I can't believe you're trying to justify the psychic experience through the doctor analogy. What's interesting is that that is the same exact argument that man used to give me as to why he was so willing to give his power away to that psychic (not knowing he was being completely controlled by her, of course). Unbelieveable... But it sounds like what you're really looking for is someone to fight with, and that's really sad. It really is!! So, having said that, considering who and what you're about, there's really nothing more I can add that I haven't already. Only that I feel so sorry for you!! Good luck to you...

[spyny]

You have the right to see fear in me (shouldn't it be projection), and aggression against you. But i don't feel it that way.

I just see that you are not capable to refute my statements by simple explanations. All you can do is to react with a feeling of rejection, unable to argue point after point.

That shows that what you say is based on suppositions, on I-feel-it-that-way and not on a real study of Buddha's an other genuine masters' teachings.

I think that my posts perfectly match the subject, which is (online) Meditation. My message is, in short, "you can learn meditation online, but if you wanna go far, you are likely to need a master". I'm not trying to attack you, but to tell people that meditation is not another kind of relaxation, and people know how much nonsense is told on the Internet. Well, the spiritual path is not without danger.

If I'm taking the analogy with the doctor, it's because it is often used in Buddhism, should you be outraged.

Then, I don't understand why you're talking about "psychic experience", because the spiritual path has nothing to do with New Age search for super powers, but with *spirituality*.

And it's not because that man (you like to refer to - did he traumatised you?), who seems to be manipulated, use a "traditional" but genuine analogy as used in Buddhism in scriptures and by nowadays masters, that it is invalid.
It's not because Christians kill people that Christianity is invalid or erroneous.

When I read you first sentences, questions arise :
You don't see any doctor ? what do you do when you're sick? maybe you're never sick? You never go to a dentist?

Of course I consult a doctor, a dentist and so on. Because I don't have the capacity of healing myself without advice, that's my point.

What you call fear, I call it realism and honesty. Perhaps if you or your pupils have a cancer, you will tell them not to see a doctor and heal it by meditating alone? I wonder...

You don't like to be questioned, do you?
Because I'm ready to be, and if you have sensible arguments to contradict me, don't hesitate to tell me, rather than keeping on saying "you're completely full of fear" or "why are you attacking?" with a defensive behavior. I'm not afraid of hearing the truth.

[Satori]

Originally Posted by spyny

You have the right to see fear in me (shouldn't it be projection), and aggression against you. But i don't feel it that way.

I just see that you are not capable to refute my statements by simple explanations. All you can do is to react with a feeling of rejection, unable to argue point after point.

That shows that what you say is based on suppositions, on I-feel-it-that-way and not on a real study of Buddha's an other genuine masters' teachings.

I think that my posts perfectly match the subject, which is (online) Meditation. My message is, in short, "you can learn meditation online, but if you wanna go far, you are likely to need a master". I'm not trying to attack you, but to tell people that meditation is not another kind of relaxation, and people know how much nonsense is told on the Internet. Well, the spiritual path is not without danger.

If I'm taking the analogy with the doctor, it's because it is often used in Buddhism, should you be outraged.

Then, I don't understand why you're talking about "psychic experience", because the spiritual path has nothing to do with New Age search for super powers, but with *spirituality*.

And it's not because that man (you like to refer to - did he traumatised you?), who seems to be manipulated, use a "traditional" but genuine analogy as used in Buddhism in scriptures and by nowadays masters, that it is invalid.
It's not because Christians kill people that Christianity is invalid or erroneous.

When I read you first sentences, questions rise :
You don't see any doctor ? what do you do when you're sick? maybe you're never sick? You never go to a dentist?

Of course I consult a doctor, a dentist and so on. Because I don't have the capacity of healing myself without advice, that's my point.

What you call fear, I call it realism and honesty. Perhaps if you or your pupils have a cancer, you will tell them not to see a doctor and heal it by meditating alone? I wonder...

You don't like to be questioned, do you?
Because I'm ready to be, and if you have sensible arguments to contradict me, don't hesitate to tell me, rather than keeping on saying "you're completely full of fear" or "why are you attacking?" with a defensive behavior. I'm not afraid of hearing the truth.

Like I said before, it appears you're looking for someone to fight with and nothing more. I stand by all of my statements, and I have nothing more to say to you, other than I am truly sorry for you. You're a very sad case. But since you are so hell-bent on attacking me and my views, I am going to have to place you on my ignore list (and I think you also know the other reason why!). Please stop trying to abuse me at this forum.