Japan Forum
About JREF | Contact Us | JREF Shop | Topsites | Advertising | Sitemap | Help
Site NavigationJREF Top > Japan Forum

Go Back   Japan Forum > Japan Forum > All Things Japanese > History & Traditions
Tokyo Thanksgiving Party, November 28! border=

History & Traditions Your lounge for Japanese traditions and history.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Nov 29, 2003, 13:05   #1
Mandylion
Omnipotence personified
 
Mandylion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 15, 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,121
Mandylion has disabled reputation
Residing in United States Male
Cool The Samurai, Bushido, and Other Things

So just what is this "Bushido"(way of the warrior) thing we hear about from time to time? The term gets thrown around by historians, martial artists, and samurai-buffs fairly often. But where does it come from and how accurate is it in painting a picture of who and what the samurai are? Can, or does, it impact how some foreigners view what it means to be Japanese?・I hope this thread can become a good discussion on all things samurai, and I would like to start with this bushido thing.

The spark to write this came from a brief discussion on this thread about the warrior sprit of Japan. Many people may have come across one treatise or another on what it means to be a samurai. As forum-ite 溺as Oyama, Rikidozan・pointed out correctly one of the earliest of these works, Budo Shoshinshu (often translated as "Code of the Warrior," it might also be called "A Primer on [the] Japanese Martial Arts") is a book written by Daidoji Yuzan Taira no Shigesuke was written and discussed during the middle to late Edo period (1603 - 1867).・The closest date I could find for this book was 1720 (this is important later on).

Before we get much farther, samurai, or "bushi" were a class of people in historical Japan whose main role for much of history, up until the early 1600's, was one of fighting. However, battles were not fought only by samurai. Being higher on the social ladder, people from this mainly hereditary class often led divisions of conscripted peasant soldiers.

Daidoji and others wrote for the literate samurai class, and not your average Japanese person. This needs to be kept in mind when trying to gauge just how deeply into society concepts of bushido・spread and were adopted.

First, how accurately does Daidoji's book describe what it means to be a samurai? The samurai class didn't just spring into being with the production of his book. However, I don't think Daidoji just got bored one day and wrote for kicks. Many historians see the Tokugawa era as a time of philosophical upheaval for the samurai. Now at the top of the social pyramid and in a time of great stability (no real combat), samurai were firstly politicians and bureaucrats, and secondly fighting men. The concepts and ideals found in Daidoji痴 work were intended for a large part to find a new philosophical direction for the samurai of a peaceful pax-Tokugawa・era. They seem to draw little from the actual behaviors and norms of earlier samurai.

Additionally, many of the ideas in Daidoji's work (which can be found online in three parts here ) serve to incorporate the fighting sprit of the samurai into the world for political administration and service to the public. While they stand alongside passages on ways to die well, how to buy a horse, and concepts of warfare, in almost every section we can find lines that are vague enough to apply to any type of employment, martial or administrative.

This is a good one; there are three kinds of warriors serving as retainers to a lord. The first are samurai of devotion, the second are samurai of faithful service, and the third are samurai of both devotion and faithful service.・

Pretty open for interpretation isn't it? By 1720 most warriors would be administrators, magistrates, tax collectors, civil servants and the like. Clothe these tasks in the higher cloaks of devotion・and service・and you have a text that satisfies both retainer and liege-lord alike for any role you choose to name.

I don't mean to imply that Daidoji was a political hack, but he cannot be considered as removed from the environment in which he found himself. It is quite obvious that Daidoji was trying to inspire an elite class of society to maintain their pride in their historical role while also strengthen them to function as effectively as they could in the new social environment.

Other authors have added to the conception of bushido.・Most of them are considered rants and romantic visions of the past. The 滴akagure・was a similar text also written in the mid 1700's by a man who dreamed about the good ol・days, or rather what they should have been like, similar to historical fiction or the archetypical western novel of today.

Bushido: The Soul of Japan was written in 1905 by Inazo Nitobe and produced for an English-reading audience by a Japanese scholar of all things western (and who knew very little about the history of Japan). It is widely dismissed as nostalgic propaganda.

All of these texts taken together, with their emphasis on loyalty, self-sacrifice, and other virtues were taken up and modified by the Meiji revolutionaries, themselves samurai, and the nationalist propaganda machines right up until the end World War Two. To modernize and expand Japan, all levels of society had to work towards a common goal and with a single mindset. The concepts written about by Daidoji were applied not just to samurai, but all levels of society. The concept of kokutai(lit. national body) took the samurai-liege lord relations and turned them into subject-emperor perspectives.

It is often through these lenses (nostalgia, nationalism, propaganda, and popular fiction) that some foreigners and some Japanese view bushido. The samurai as a class and real social force have been dead for over 130 years while the essence of the samurai has been milled and altered through the machines of public policy, fiction, and western interpretations for the same length of time. How clear an understanding can we (and even me) say we have for what bushido really means?

The bushido we so often throw around is not something that was passed down through and ageless warrior tradition intact to the present day. Bushido is not something we can universally attach or ascribe to all things Japanese. Its concepts cannot be said to penetrate to all levels of society. Rather bushido acts like the word patriot. It means some kind of general concept, generally agreed to be positive, but which will not mean the same thing to the same people. Is a soldier patriotic? What about the protestor who loves his/her country but doesn't like where it is going? How about the union workers or the big industrialists?

What does bushido mean to the average Japanese person today? You will get as many answers as there are individuals. Some may recognize it as being part of their heritage but have no bearing on their life. Others will find it integral to the perception of self, similar to the way a modern American might view the concept of pioneer spirit.・

That the samurai of old woke up everyday looking forward to death, standing sword in hand bravely against overwhelming numbers simply to die with honor is a misconception perpetuated by romanticists, the movies, and propaganda. Did such acts happen? Sure, but the simple lack of their presence in the historical record is enough to raise serious questions about this stalwart image. Indeed one does not have to look far to find examples of samurai killed while running away, or cunning traps sprung on defenseless adversaries (Musashi Miyamoto, a famous samurai and one popularly associated with bushido, employed such tactics, and had such devices sprung against him). At the end of the day samurai too were only human.

I welcome your comments and ideas. I left many things out and glossed over a bunch of interesting supporting items which were counterproductive to flow. If you are interested in reading further, you can find some more information through the links below. Also, if you want to discuss anything else about the samurai or historical Japan, you can start on this thread, or make your own! Thanks for reading.

http://koryu.com/library/kfriday2.html The Historical Foundations of Bushido
http://www.geocities.com/lowly_swordsman/classics.html Code of the Warrior
http://www.koryubooks.com/store/code.html good outline of texts
http://www.samurai-archives.com/index.html nice little samurai site.

Last edited by Mandylion; Oct 15, 2005 at 01:55.
Mandylion is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old Nov 29, 2003, 18:09   #2
senseiman
Regular Member
 
senseiman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 24, 2003
Location: canadian
Age: 33
Posts: 801
senseiman has a reputation beyond reputesenseiman has a reputation beyond reputesenseiman has a reputation beyond reputesenseiman has a reputation beyond reputesenseiman has a reputation beyond reputesenseiman has a reputation beyond reputesenseiman has a reputation beyond repute
Residing in Japan Male
Hey, that was an interesting read! I'll check out some of those sites.

I read that 'Bushido, soul of Japan', by Inazo Nitobe and it is really nothing but a romantacized piece of propoganda that seems laughably out of touch. Chapter one starts: "Chivalry is a flower no less indigenous to Japan than its emblem, the cherry blossom..."

Hard not to roll your eyes...
__________________
祇園精舎の鐘の聲、諸行無常の響あり。娑羅雙樹の花の 色、盛者必衰のことわりをあらはす。おごれる人も久し からず、唯春の夜の夢のごとし。たけき者も遂にほろび ぬ、偏に風の前の塵に同じ。
senseiman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 30, 2003, 07:25   #3
Haivart
Regular Member
 
Haivart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 15, 2002
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 139
Haivart will become famous soon enough
Residing in United States Female
I'll second senseiman's opinion about it being interesting. Now I have another thing on my list of reading topics.
Haivart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 2, 2003, 11:14   #4
Dr_Inferno
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 12, 2003
Location: Houston TX
Age: 24
Posts: 12
Dr_Inferno is quite nice
Residing in
please excuse my vast ignorance :

i wish to apologize beforehand for any misconceptions i may have or erroneous statements i may make while i speak. Certainly, an interesting bit of information, but your key point focuses on how these, relatively, old texts apply to a very modern, a very different Japan. Of course, many of these traditions and beliefs have transcended the years to become part of the Japanese way of life -- please note: i know that 'bushido' is basically the samurai code of honor etc -- such as their great competitive nature (as far as i understand, their education and work ethics are both strong and greatly competitive), but the actual bushido most likely has little to no effect on modern Japanese culture.

Just my thoughts, i'm no history major but i've found that when discussing older texts one must look to see how the texts have affected the modern culture OR one must research how said texts would have affected the people of that time: NOT looking for how the texts affect the people of the modern time.
__________________
am i your most magnanimous friend?
Dr_Inferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 2, 2003, 12:26   #5
Mandylion
Omnipotence personified
 
Mandylion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 15, 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,121
Mandylion has disabled reputation
Residing in United States Male
Post

Well said and I couldn't agree more Dr_Inferno!

Originally posted by Dr_Inferno
Certainly, an interesting bit of information, but your key point focuses on how these, relatively, old texts apply to a very modern, a very different Japan...but the actual bushido most likely has little to no effect on modern Japanese culture.
I must say that I thought one of my points was just that; these old texts really don't apply to modern Japan in a clear-cut way. Parts of bushido may indeed apply, but it is hard to pull something out, like the Japanese work culture, hold it up and say "this is bushido" with impunity. Too much has happened since 1720 for the word to have bushido mean what Daidoji perhaps intended it to. That was a general theme I was trying to get home, sorry if it wasn't clear.

Originally posted by Dr_Inferno
...i've found that when discussing older texts one must look to see how the texts have affected the modern culture OR one must research how said texts would have affected the people of that time: NOT looking for how the texts affect the people of the modern time.
A good note of caution for all of us. My post was going after the danger of taking old texts and ideals and make the assumption that these migrate unchanged through the ages. I was going after how Daidoji's conception of the samurai was written in a time of samurai social reorientation, these themes were picked up by others, shaped again by the Meiji government and then run through the popular imagination to the present. All of these color and change what the word "samurai" has come to encompass. In that sense, we can look at how old texts impact modern people when said texts are viewed and internalized through the various layers of truth, fiction, and expectation which have been built up around them over the years.

(Fun to working the ol' brain eh? Good to get away from all the J-Pop and anime once and awhile.)
Mandylion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 25, 2004, 13:15   #6
Martialartsnovice
Custom Graphix Artist
 
Martialartsnovice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 24, 2004
Location: My Own World
Posts: 291
Martialartsnovice is on a distinguished road
Residing in United States Male
Well here's a good find then

I am reading a book called "HIROHITO & AND THE MAKING OF MODERN JAPAN" by Herbert Bix. Its quite good so far, It talkis about Hito's childhood, atill I believe hsi death. And here's another one " Armed Martial Arts of Japan, (Swordsmanship and Archery)" this was written by Cameron Hurst III. It is an excellent book if you want to challenge yourself. Check it out, maybe you'll like it.
__________________
“To every man there comes a time in his lifetime that special moment when he is figuratively tapped on the shoulder and offered the chance to do a very special thing unique to him and fitted to his talent; what a tragedy if that moment finds him unprepared or unqualified for the work which would be his finest hour.”

Sir Winston Churchill
Martialartsnovice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 10, 2005, 07:38   #7
Martialartsnovice
Custom Graphix Artist
 
Martialartsnovice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 24, 2004
Location: My Own World
Posts: 291
Martialartsnovice is on a distinguished road
Residing in United States Male
Do people, around the world still, practice the samurai arts, I heard from some people that the sword arts of the Samurai class, have evolved into such arts as Iaito, Kedo, and other things. Is this true, or am I misinformed.
Martialartsnovice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 10, 2005, 08:58   #8
Index
目録
 
Index's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 541
Index is a splendid one to beholdIndex is a splendid one to beholdIndex is a splendid one to beholdIndex is a splendid one to beholdIndex is a splendid one to behold
Residing in Australia Male
I'd never really thought that Bushido was a unified concept. In other words my impression is that it changed according to the role that Samurai played in the various periods of Japanese history. Is it possible to compare bushi to Knights in ancient Europe? I guess this is a problem too since Knighthood is also a romanticized idea full of innacuracies. I would have thought bushido was a school of thought that accompanied the bushi's role in society, much like today's officers in the armed forces have a military education which leads to a certain way of approaching problems, thinking, and carrying out duties. I'll read your links now before I put my foot in my mouth...
Index is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 10, 2005, 09:40   #9
Uncle Frank
You SPAM/We BAN !
 
Join Date: May 21, 2003
Location: State of Maine
Age: 59
Posts: 6,715
Uncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehensionUncle Frank is beyond human apprehension
Residing in United States Male
Mandylion !!!!!!!

PLEASE COME BACK !!!! JREF needs you and your interesting posts!

Frank

PS - And I miss ya!

__________________
TAKE WHAT I SAY WITH A GRAIN OF SUGAR !!
I USED TO BE FUNNY, BUT MY WIFE HAD ME NEUTERED!
Uncle Frank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 10, 2005, 12:33   #10
Shooter452
Danshaku
 
Shooter452's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 5, 2005
Location: Jacksonville, NC
Age: 60
Posts: 227
Shooter452 is a much appreciated member
Residing in United_States
Originally Posted by Martialartsnovice
Do people, around the world still, practice the samurai arts
SURE they do. Flower arranging, haiku, and the social graces are all samurai arts, although not the kind that the dojo theater clowns have in mind when they bespeak of "being samurai."

To be samurai was first and foremost to serve. It was also an obligation to be civilized in a violent culture where the veneer of civilization could, at times, be the thickness of a couple of microns.
Shooter452 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 2005, 11:02   #11
Martialartsnovice
Custom Graphix Artist
 
Martialartsnovice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 24, 2004
Location: My Own World
Posts: 291
Martialartsnovice is on a distinguished road
Residing in United States Male
I guess Im sort of training myself in the nature of the samurai. Im trying to learn the subtle graces of Japanese culture, and the art forms. Im having a hard time with the origami part of the culture.
Martialartsnovice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1, 2005, 00:30   #12
Loyalist
I follow the strong
 
Loyalist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 30, 2005
Location: florida
Posts: 35
Loyalist has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Residing in United_States
The way of the samurai lies within devoting ones body and soul to his master, Treating every day life and battle the same, and considering your life no longer your own. These ideas are expressed in the Hagakure, written by Yamamoto Tsunemoto. Note that this book was written after "The age of the county at war." and the author never participated in a battle. Even so, this seems to be the most simple and best way to relate how serious Bushido is. The knights of europe (to me) seem to have been more focused on personal glory, than the honor of any one master or group. This is what seperates the two in my mind.
__________________
"If you cannot lead, Follow the best."
Loyalist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 2, 2005, 13:59   #13
Martialartsnovice
Custom Graphix Artist
 
Martialartsnovice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 24, 2004
Location: My Own World
Posts: 291
Martialartsnovice is on a distinguished road
Residing in United States Male
Yeah, I see the proof of your words, in history. Come to think of it.

Look back at the Medieval Crusades, in which one example I know of is that Venetian Merchants agreed to haul the knights to the Middle East, in exchange for attacking a particular town there. Well to say the least, the Knights nevered fought the Saracens, or anybody but the enemies of the Venetian Merchants. So there is proof in that post.
Martialartsnovice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9, 2007, 20:17   #14
caster51
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Feb 27, 2005
Location: japan
Posts: 1,884
caster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond repute
Residing in Japan Male
Unknown Miracle: Bushido
I think there is no war criminal in Japanese imperial navy
Japanese destroyer Ikazuchi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...royer_Ikazuchi
there is no story about Kudo and Ikazuchi
422 UK soldiers were lescued by Kudo of Ikazuchi
before that about 180 Japanese navy's salvages were attcked and killd by US navy.
however kudo dicided to lescue them by bushido.
I like that Kudo said " they fought bravely Now they are our Guests"
so is spirits of knight ?
I think many of the Japanese respect it even though they are enemy..
I think I found many ppl from ohter country can not Understand?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8CFBB8uL-Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmEQHQviEJM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgbmAcvQf3M


caster51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2007, 09:12   #15
caster51
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Feb 27, 2005
Location: japan
Posts: 1,884
caster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond repute
Residing in Japan Male
Originally Posted by caster51 View Post
Unknown Miracle: Bushido
I think there is no war criminal in Japanese imperial navy
Japanese destroyer Ikazuchi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...royer_Ikazuchi
there is no story about Kudo and Ikazuchi
422 UK soldiers were lescued by Kudo of Ikazuchi
before that about 180 Japanese navy's salvages were attcked and killd by US navy.
however kudo dicided to lescue them by bushido.
I like that Kudo said " they fought bravely Now they are our Guests"
so is spirits of knight ?
I think many of the Japanese respect it even though they are enemy..
I think I found many ppl from ohter country can not Understand?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8CFBB8uL-Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmEQHQviEJM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgbmAcvQf3M



English sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQC5Plz1s3c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMo-Mwz-pxM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6lJpJ2POpI
caster51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 11, 2007, 23:28   #16
jurek1810
Regular Member
 
jurek1810's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 9, 2007
Posts: 167
jurek1810 is quite nice
Residing in Poland Male
I think Bushido is the soul of real samurai (and ronin's too). It was perfectly showed in film by Akira Kurosawa: "Shichinin no Samurai". And I think, like in Europe was an officer's kode (even during WW II) such Bushido's kode was obey only by real samurai (officer).

P.S. Sorry for my english
jurek1810 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2007, 12:56   #17
Ewok85
Cute and Furry
 
Ewok85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 14, 2003
Location: Saitama/Tokyo
Age: 24
Posts: 2,343
Ewok85 has a reputation beyond reputeEwok85 has a reputation beyond reputeEwok85 has a reputation beyond reputeEwok85 has a reputation beyond reputeEwok85 has a reputation beyond reputeEwok85 has a reputation beyond reputeEwok85 has a reputation beyond repute
Residing in Japan-Saitama Male
It annoys me no end how far the Japanese, and willing foreigners, will go to ignore the nasties and romanticise their own history.

I read a few books about William Adams and it had extracts from the diaries of the men who lived in Japan. The basic thing that comes through is that the ruling class was ruthless, treated their 'people' as little more than animals that could be used or killed on a whim. The most interesting was when I was talking about this with my wife and mentioned that a repeated theme was that the samurai would often "test" their blades on people, hacking them up until there was nothing left to cut.

Of course they'd never do that...
__________________
Leon - http://www.leonjp.com
Expat Japan! - http://forums.expatjapan.net
半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを
Ewok85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 1, 2007, 14:54   #18
caster51
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Feb 27, 2005
Location: japan
Posts: 1,884
caster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond repute
Residing in Japan Male
The basic thing that comes through is that the ruling class was ruthless, treated their 'people' as little more than animals that could be used or killed on a whim. The most interesting was when I was talking about this with my wife and mentioned that a repeated theme was that the samurai would often "test" their blades on people, hacking them up until there was nothing left to cut.
there were some at that time.
they surely had this privilege

killing a passerby in order to test a new sword was death penalty though
marder for impolite is accepted..
The procedure afterwards is severe and the examination of the validity is very severe .

there was a possibility that this sumurai's family was smashed

but it was rarely. no sumrais actuary did that
caster51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 2, 2007, 04:27   #19
GodEmperorLeto
Veni, vidi... vicodin?
 
GodEmperorLeto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 4, 2006
Location: Busan, S. Korea
Age: 30
Posts: 519
GodEmperorLeto is a most admired celebrityGodEmperorLeto is a most admired celebrityGodEmperorLeto is a most admired celebrityGodEmperorLeto is a most admired celebrityGodEmperorLeto is a most admired celebrityGodEmperorLeto is a most admired celebrity
Residing in South Korea Male
Yeah, but Ewok, Western European knighthood is very romanticized as well. Peasants and farmers had virtually no rights unless they owned their own land or lived in the cities. Local landlords could get away with downright murder if they wanted to, so long as the victim wasn't a peer. The image of the chivalric knight is mostly an early Renaissance creation,
You hear of occasional acts of bravery comparable to Japanese bushido during the European medieval period, such as the Combat of the Thirty during the War of Bretagne Succession (a subset of the Hundred Years War). But they are eclipsed by the general overall lack of regard for the value of human life of peasants, such as the sack of Caen by Edward the Black Prince.

The romanticism comes during the Renaissance, with such works as Amadis of Gaul and Orlando Furioso, culminating with Mallory's Le Morte d'Arthur.

I'm not necessarily defending caster, here, but I have no doubt that true chivalry (in the romantic sense) occurred at isolated instances throughout the Second World War. By uplifting the positive stories and by focusing on the bravery, you condemn the negative actions more strongly by creating an immediate and definite contrast.

Anyway, personally, I think that a 13th century English knight would have felt more at home in feudal Japan than Adams did. Especially if he had his armor, retainers, and all the proof of his nobility. But, well, unfortunately, the only place that sort of interaction can ever take place is in a Forgotten Realms campaign.

Originally Posted by caster51
but it was rarely. no sumrais actuary did that
Uh, yeah, dude, they did. Especially during 戦国時代 (Sengoku Jidai). The lawlessness and rampant warfare of the era was totally devastating, especially when compared during the Edo period. Daimyo generally had the ultimate authority in their lands, and could exercise their control with unquestionable aplomb. The chivalric samurai were often the exception during this age. And, if I am correct, that's when Adams landed in Japan.

Granted, it was more common to test swords on convicted criminals, but nevertheless, a samurai was well within his rights to strike the head off of a peasant who "looked at him funny."

Honestly, both medieval Japan and Europe are generally equally lawless (in a modern sense) with little or no rights guaranteed to peasants, and the "nobility" using their military authority to do whatever it was they wanted.
__________________
Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.
GodEmperorLeto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 3, 2007, 13:47   #20
caster51
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Feb 27, 2005
Location: japan
Posts: 1,884
caster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond reputecaster51 has a reputation beyond repute
Residing in Japan Male
The soul of the samurai〜武士の魂
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=-7DOe1CfRZU
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=korjdd89pkU
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=ufz-BdmM3jE
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=a52E-Q4NAPM
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=Du5OGB-1C8w
caster51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 21, 2007, 06:18   #21
scorpion da black
a friend
 
scorpion da black's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 17, 2007
Location: Tripoli-Lebanon
Age: 22
Posts: 350
scorpion da black has much to be proud ofscorpion da black has much to be proud of
Residing in Lebanon Male
perhaps you cant understand what it means to be warrior because your nation never had any. you call it romantic and vague... i call it words of wisdom, i read the book of five rings and many more about Bushido. unlike you i found many great meanings in them...i don't say that the samurai are extraterrestrial beings who are flawless in fighting...i am just saying that their warrior code is that of pride and honor and is truly magnificent. the words you might find worthless i could make sense out of.
just as the kamikaze were brave and courages to sacrifice them selves for the glory of their country ....i as an Arabian now how it feels, because we have a warrior code of our own. a code that gives us great power when we fight...and people from your nation call our resistance against invaders terrorism.
so i wouldn't be surprised if you also call warriors of japan romantic fake ideas. maybe you just like to constantly under mean warriors.
scorpion da black is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 21, 2007, 14:54   #22
Calchas
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 43
Calchas is quite nice
Residing in United States Male
There is much to learn from Japanese warrior ethics Scorpion, but don't forget that in the end the ridge code of the samurai lead to their downfall and the kamikaze , regardless of how brave they may have been, where nothing more then a last ditch attemp that did not slow down the defeat of Imperial Japan.
Calchas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 21, 2007, 15:31   #23
tokapi
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 8, 2007
Location: 外宇宙
Posts: 809
tokapi is a much appreciated member
Residing in United States Male
Originally Posted by Calchas View Post

There is much to learn from Japanese warrior ethics Scorpion, but don't forget that in the end the ridge code of the samurai lead to their downfall and the kamikaze
Nope ... it was otherwise according to the author ( 藤原正彦 ) Masahiko Fujiwara of " The Nation's Dignity " ( 国家の品格 ),he believed that Japan Imperial Army lost the true spirits of Samurai Code led to what happened in China.

http://translate.google.com/translat...US233%26sa%3DG
tokapi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 21, 2007, 16:15   #24
Calchas
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 43
Calchas is quite nice
Residing in United States Male
Originally Posted by tokapi View Post
Nope ... it was otherwise according to the author ( 藤原正彦 ) Masahiko Fujiwara of " The Nation's Dignity " ( 国家の品格 ),he believed that Japan Imperial Army lost the true spirits of Samurai Code led to what happened in China.
??

What does the downfall of the samarai in the late part of the 19th century have to do with Imperial Japan in the 20th?

The Samarai never "lost their code" . I think you are not reading my post correctly. Let me clear it up for you....

There is much to learn from Japanese warrior ethics Scorpion, but don't forget that in the end the ridge code of the samurai lead to their downfall.


The kamikaze , regardless of how brave they may have been, where nothing more then a last ditch attemp that did not slow down the defeat of Imperial Japan.



Not sure what China or the Imperial Army (Kamikaze where part of special attack groups that had army and navy personel in them) has to do with my post..but whatever......

And it can be argued that the Japanese Imperial Army never had the true "samurai code", but only a corrupted version of it which I think is what you are refering to.
Calchas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 21, 2007, 17:18   #25
MadamePapillon
Fear my Niftyness
 
MadamePapillon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1, 2007
Location: Somewhere between Here and There
Age: 23
Posts: 435
MadamePapillon is a most admired celebrityMadamePapillon is a most admired celebrityMadamePapillon is a most admired celebrityMadamePapillon is a most admired celebrityMadamePapillon is a most admired celebrityMadamePapillon is a most admired celebrity
Residing in Canada-British Columbia Female
Scorpion da black....

There is a vast difference between what is written and books and what's real. It's easy to imbellish and romaticize any sort of warrior, especially the Samurai who seems to be viewed with a percieved mysticism and awe by many.

All warriors have their 'code of honor', that doesn't mean that they were actually all good and honorable. Just look at the european Knights, all sorts of stories are told about them but you know that the majority of it is crap. 'Code of Honor' is just one way warriors set themselves apart from the ordinary people, it serves as a pedestal and is often nothing more than lies. It sounds good but is rarely put into practice.

I wouldn't be so quick to put the Samurai and their warriors code on any sort of pedestal. They aren't any more mystical or fantastic than any other warrior group, just another bunch of men with swords killing people and going on about 'honor this' and 'glory that'. Look at any history book, you find them all over the place. For as long as there has been a mankind there have been men with swords killing people and proclaiming themselves to be holier than thou.
__________________
All Hail to the HYPNOTOAD *clap* *clap* *clap*
MadamePapillon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +9. The time now is 22:37.



JREF Features
More JREF
Webmasters
Hosted Websites


vBulletin 3.8.3 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
About - Contact - Sitemap - Help - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertising
Copyright © 1999-2009 Japan Reference All Rights Reserved