2 joined verbs...

[beluga]

Examples:

tachi agaru = stand up
motte kuru = bring here
motte iku = bring along
tori dasu = bring out

Question is, how do you know when to use te-form or masu-stem to join 2 together? Why not tatte agaru? or totte dasu? or mochi kuru?

I asked my sensei and she said there's no hard and fast rule. Can anyone else comment on this?

[Ewok85]

Well the middle two are auxilery verbs while the top and the middle two are grammar while the top and bottom are words.

Aux Verb: verb added to another verb or adj
ie: -iru (-ing)
yonde iru 読んでいる reading
-kuru and -iku are aux verbs. so is dasu.

kuru and iku use a Vte て(iku/kuru) pattern but!
dasu used Vmasu 出す pattern

The trick is to learn the common auxilery verbs (and adjectives) and learn the patterns.

(English is just as fun http://www.english.uiuc.edu/cws/wwor...iary_verbs.htm )

[Elizabeth]

I don't think the handful of irregular "te" forms arise from anything significant such as meaning or pronunciation either because even with motsu there are exceptions, such as "mochiyori" meaning everyone brings something (mochiyori party, etc).

[beluga]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth

I don't think the handful of irregular "te" forms arise from anything significant such as meaning or pronunciation either because even with motsu there are exceptions, such as "mochiyori" meaning everyone brings something (mochiyori party, etc).

I spoke to my Japanese friend and he did say that indeed there is such thing as mochi kuru totte agaru and each has difference nuance. However, he couldn't give me any specific examples. Perhaps he himself isn't too sure too. So, Elizabeth, what you're saying too is that there's no hard and fast rule on these?

[Elizabeth]

Your friend said that 持ち来る　and 立って上がる are words ? I don't know....I'm just sure I've never seen them or talked to any one else who thought so. I'll ask about the rules, but it's doubtful since there are so many fewer of the "te" type. 　

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by beluga

So, Elizabeth, what you're saying too is that there's no hard and fast rule on these?

I believe only "iku" "kuru" and "miru" can take the "te" form (i.e. motte) if that
helps....

[Ewok85]

the te form also includes
morau ageru iru shimau kureru oku kudasai

[Elizabeth]

I think beluga was referring to actual compound words, found in the dictionary, with a single meaning as opposed to donatory verbs like morau, ageru, kureru or auxilliaries.

[Ewok85]

Well, the rule is that the ones you mentioned (iku kuru kuru) and the ones above (morau ageru iru shimau kureru oku kudasai) are the only -te form auxlleries i can think of. There is a rule to it, certain aux verbs have a set pattern, i kno dasu and hajimeru use Vmasu+dasu/hajimeru (たべだす、うごきはじめる）. Im still looking for a complete list to try and make sense of it myself.

Generally the Vmasu+auxV words can be found in a dictionary (look up naki- you'll find a big list of crying words; naki otosu, naki tsuku etc)

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by Ewok85

Well, the rule is that the ones you mentioned (iku kuru kuru) and the ones above (morau ageru iru shimau kureru oku kudasai) are the only -te form auxlleries i can think of.

As well as "aru" and "miru" of course, but anyway the question was not about auxillaries but rather about compound words made up of two verbs, of which the "te + masu" type may be considered a subset of this larger "main (te) + helping verb" form (if you like) although the meanings may be slightly different (such as "kimashita" is more like happened then came, as a helping verb) so I don't think it's a very useful analogy myself.

[beluga]

Basically, I do know how to use -te form. It's just that words like motte kuru or tachi agaru, grammatically wise, mochi kuru or tatte agaru is also equally correct and yet, they are not acceptable(or are they?). So, my basic question is that when you're about to join 2 verbs, how do you know it's going to be V-masu stem + verb or V-te + verb?

I believe only "iku" "kuru" and "miru" can take the "te" form (i.e. motte) if that
helps....

This will be a great help. Thanks Elizabeth. However, I guess these are not the complete ones huh?

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by beluga

Basically, I do know how to use -te form. It's just that words like motte kuru or tachi agaru, grammatically wise, mochi kuru or tatte agaru is also equally correct and yet, they are not acceptable(or are they?).

そのような言葉は日本語にはございませんね。

[Ewok85]

Ok, ill try one more time, my explanation skills arent too great

First a little guide to my abbreviations
Vinf is infinitive form or dictionary form (いく　くる　たべる）
Vmasa is the -masu form if the masu was removed（いき　き　たべ）
Vte is the te form, with the te included (いって　きて　たべて）

When you are using 2 verbs like this the second verb is called a Auxillery Verb (Aux V. A verb that is used with a main verb).

Japanese Auxiillery Verbs have rules as to how they are used.

Some fall into the Vmasu + AuxV
(dasu, hajimeru, nasai, owaru, sugiru)

And others in Vte + AuxV
(aru, iku, iru, kudasai, kureru, kuru, miru, morau, oku, shimau)

Theres no hard and fast rule. Japanese grammar (like english) is mainly finding the rules, learning the exceptions and remembering them.


Then theres Compound Words

Ooooo, the fun begins here. I only found out about these today when i asked my lecturer (yay, first day of uni).

So, i didnt get alot on this but if you join 2 verbs that are intransitive (dont know? dont worry too much, you'll find out soon enough) it makes a noun.

Vmasu + Vmasu

Like up and down

noboru and oru makes:
nobori-ori

iku and kaeru
iki-kaeri (going and coming back)

I cant think of anything else but that above is what you need. If you join any other 2 verbs the general rule is Vmasu+Vinf.　So thats the tachiagaru and hanashiau types of joined verbs.

I hope this helps

あんまり説明ができないけど、ともかく僕が学んだ　

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by Ewok85

I cant think of anything else but that above is what you need. If you join any other 2 verbs the general rule is Vmasu+Vinf.　So thats the tachiagaru and hanashiau types of joined verbs.

Except for compounds such as mottekuru and motteiku of course which are vte + vinf.

[beluga]

Thank you Ewok for putting great effort in trying to explain. For you explanation of 2 opposite verbs, shouldn't it be tari-tari form? tari-tari form is repetitive though. I guess itte kimasu is an exception for what you've explained then....

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by beluga

Thank you Ewok for putting great effort in trying to explain. For you explanation of 2 opposite verbs, shouldn't it be tari-tari form? tari-tari form is repetitive though. I guess itte kimasu is an exception for what you've explained then....

In that case, though, wouldn't kimasu/mairimasu still be considered auxilliary because it gives another indication of the speaker's intention without being essential to the meaning of going....

[Ewok85]

The opposite verb ones is more of using verbs to make a noun, a describing word. Tari is more for listing things that you do/did. :S ack my head hurts. I just love the grammar :laugh:

[beluga]

Originally Posted by Ewok85

The opposite verb ones is more of using verbs to make a noun, a describing word. Tari is more for listing things that you do/did. :S ack my head hurts. I just love the grammar :laugh:

As I know, tari is also used for opposite actions.

kare ha doa wo aketari shimetari shimasu...
he is opening and shutting the door.

[Elizabeth]

And general states of affairs or mental processes as well as actions.

わかったりわからなかったりしてね。　Sometimes understanding sometimes not understanding....

暑かったり寒かったりしてね。 Being hot and cold, hot and cold....

[Elizabeth]

Another more conversational use of "tari" is with just a single verb to mean "things like that" such as "Kesa denwa de anata no shigoto no hanashi wo setsumei shitari shite kurete/itadaite arigatou." Thanks for explaining your work situation this morning on the phone meaning broadly explaining, describing, opining, etc.

[mdchachi]

Originally Posted by Ewok85

The opposite verb ones is more of using verbs to make a noun, a describing word. Tari is more for listing things that you do/did. :S ack my head hurts. I just love the grammar :laugh:

Another common example of a Vstem + Vstem = noun is
tachiyomi which can then be made into a verb by adding "suru".
e.g. the act of reading while standing (usually in a konbini or book store).

Also "nomikui" (eating & drinking).

Regarding the original question, I don't think there are any real rules for this so it's not worth spending a lot of time on to try to make some up.

[beluga]

So, the answer is still back to what my sensei said, there's no fast rule. However, this thread has made me sum up to a conclusion. For kuru, iku and miru, it should be always te-form. The rest, is not fixed. I think V-masu V-masu type is used on 2 verbs that are very closely related. I guess that's bout it... Thanks guys!

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by beluga

So, the answer is still back to what my sensei said, there's no fast rule. However, this thread has made me sum up to a conclusion. For kuru, iku and miru, it should be always te-form. The rest, is not fixed. I think V-masu V-masu type is used on 2 verbs that are very closely related. I guess that's bout it... Thanks guys!

And In the case of mottekuru and motteiku at least it can be said there are at least two distinct steps involved (locating an object/attribute and then doing something with it, delivering or carrying back) whereas many of the vinf in the vmasu category seem to involve prepositions or directional words and convey a single, integrated movement (such as toridasu, draw out ; tachiagaru, rise ; tobidasu, jump out).