should, should have, must , must have, have to

Mac · Mar 4, 2004, 11:49

I know these things.

should

　　　I should study English.
　　　英語を勉強した方がいい。

　　　You should not do it.
あなたはそれをしない方がいい。

should have

　　　I should have studied English.
英語を勉強しておけばよかった。

must

　　　You must not do it.
　　　あなたはそれをしてはいけない。

　　　You must do it
あなたはそれをしなければならない。

　　　He must be sick.
彼は病気に違いない。

have to　（mustより優しい言い方）

　　　You have to do something
　　　あなたは何かしなければならない。

I don't know from here.

must have

I must have learned English.
私は英語を学習したに違いない。

I must not have learned English.
私は英語を学習しなかったに違いない。

junryuu · Mar 4, 2004, 12:30

Hi there -

"must have" (in its past tense 過去形 ) is a construction that implies a necessity of prior occurrence (sp?). Or, in simpler English, it talks about something that had to happen in the past for something now to be true.

A: The road is really wet.
B: It must have rained yesterday.

A: You must have eaten the cookies.
B: No I didn't.
A: Then why are there crumbs on your face?

日本語で言い方良く知りませんがMacの例文はよさそうです。

ところで私のAIMの名はtontetsuですよ。「junryuu」を入力したら他の人が出るかもしれません。確認して欲しいだけです。　

Elizabeth · Mar 4, 2004, 16:22

Originally Posted by junryuu

Hi there -

"must have" (in its past tense 過去形 ) is a construction that implies a necessity of prior occurrence (sp?). Or, in simpler English, it talks about something that had to happen in the past for something now to be true.

Actually it doesn't necessarily imply the necessity of a past occurrence, only the speaker's belief that it was most likely so.

"My wallet is missing. I must have left it in the restaurant" when in fact it could be in the car or have been dropped on the street etc.

"His English was extremely proficient. He must have been studying for several years now" when in fact he may have simply picked up it very quickly or lived abroad for a year.

junryuu · Mar 4, 2004, 16:40

Hey Elizabeth -

Well, yes, perhaps it should be rephrased as a belief or guess? Thanks for pointing that out.

I was thinking a little too narrow-mindedly.

Remind me not to write these things in a rush and without thinking.

Elizabeth · Mar 4, 2004, 17:02

And in still other contexts, of course, "must have" is nothing more than an indirect embellishment of "must" or "have to."

You must have permission to enter the building.

You must have an international driver's license before renting a car in Japan.

junryuu · Mar 4, 2004, 19:03

Hey again -

That is, of course, correct as well. I was restricting myself before to only past-tense verbs added on to "must have", but of course these are among other uses which people must have familiarity with.

Elizabeth · Mar 4, 2004, 21:20

Well....it's easy enough (for English speakers, anyway ;)) to force these sentences back into their past (perfect?) usage. Are we close enough to where we started yet, junryuu?

He must have had permission before entering the building.

You must have gotten an international driver's license before renting a car in Japan last year.

Elizabeth · Mar 4, 2004, 23:37

Originally Posted by Mac

I don't know from here.

must have

I must have learned English.
私は英語を学習したに違いない。

I must not have learned English.
私は英語を学習しなかったに違いない。

Kono baai Eigo de wa kono youna bun de wa imi wo nasanai desukedo. Shuugo toshite wa "I" de wanaku, "He" ka "She" ka tsukattara ii. Jibun ni tsuite hanasu toki ni, mae ni eigo wo naratta ka dou ka to iu koto wo mou shitte iru kara.

Mac · Mar 4, 2004, 23:41

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is my memo to translate.

construction = 構造
implie = ほのめかす？暗黙の？
necessity = 必要、必然　ねせしてぃー
necessarily = 必然的に、やむを得ず　ねせせありー
prior = より重要な、前の、先の
crumb = （パンやお菓子の）くず
occurrence = 起きる事、発生、出来事　おかーれんす
extremely = とても、非常に、極度に
proficient = 熟練した
rephrase = (意味を明確にするために )言い直す
belief = 信じる事、考え、信用
narrow-mindedly = 心が狭く
indirect = 不正な
embelish = 飾る
permission = 免許、許可
restrict = 制限（限定）する
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sorry I need a lot of time to translate and understand that you are written.
(This sentence must be wrong.)

Yes. I have already added you to my AIM buddy list.
I will ask and invite you, when the English class on AIM has opened.

junryuu · Mar 5, 2004, 01:57

Hey -

Oy. Head is spinning, and it's probably not just because of two hours of karaoke just now.

Elizabeth - I have no idea where we even are at this point, so why don't I just concede that I have no idea and let's move on, yes?

I'm even afraid to say that I was talking about the past perfect from Mac's examples for fear of suddenly having lost the distinction between perfect and imperfect verbs.

Mac - wow. I'm speechless. I applaud you for taking the time to translate and understand our dialog. With that attitude, I'm sure you'll master English in no time.

(can't say the same for myself and Japanese

)

- sorry I need a lot of time to translate and understand that you are written.
- (This sentence must be wrong.)

Very close. Really, there's only one problem, and it's at the end - "that you are written" sounds something like 君を書いた. Or that a person was written - not their thoughts, or what they said, but the person himself/herself.

Maybe you meant something like "what you have written" or "what you wrote?" Or maybe "that which you wrote" or "that which you have written?" Again, since I'm clearly not on top of things, I think it'd be wiser to let Elizabeth explain why this is.

Anyway, that's it for me. Thinking about

and eating humble pie instead...

Mac · Mar 5, 2004, 02:59

Yes! I should have used "I need a time to understand what you have written." instead of "that you are written."
I knew the meaning "what". what = the thing which

ahhhh

Elizabeth · Mar 5, 2004, 08:30

Originally Posted by Mac

Yes! I should have used "I need a time to understand what you have written." instead of "that you are written."
I knew the meaning "what". what = the thing which

ahhhh

日本語で、「あなたが書いてくれた事を理解できるようになるまで時間がかかる（必要？）なんです」という文は正しいですか？　または、あなたが書いてくれた事が分かるように時間がかかる（必要？）なんですそういう文のほうが自然ですか？

もっと正確な日本語に直してほしいでしょうか？　私の日本語の話し方は少しおかしいですよね。

Mac · Mar 5, 2004, 09:34

Elizabethさんこんにちは。

あなたが書いてくれた事を理解するには時間がかかります。

そうですね。普通こういう文のときは�かかる�を使い、必要とは書きません。
だけどこの日本語の文を英語にするにはやっぱりneedを使いますよね？

ってことでこの文はあってるのかな・・・？
I need a time to understand what you have written.　
これはa timeでいいのでしょうか？

あなたが書いてくれた事が分かるように時間がかかる（必要？）よりも
よりあなたが書いてくれた事が分かるように�なるには�時間がかかる（必要？）ですね。

あと新しい質問ですが、チャットでbe right backと言ってお友達が去ってしまいました。
そんなときに私から、友達が戻ってきたらなんと言ったらいいのでしょう。
welcome backと言ったらへんだと言われたのですが・・・

Elizabeth · Mar 5, 2004, 10:32

Originally Posted by Mac

Elizabethさんこんにちは。

[B]だけどこの日本語の文を英語にするにはやっぱりneedを使いますよね？

マク、

"It will take (some, or a little) time to understand what you've written" or
I will need time to understand what you've written." どちらでもいいと思います。

ってことでこの文はあってるのかな・・・？
I need a time to understand what you have written.　
これはa timeでいいのでしょうか？

Timeだけです。

物の言い方にルールはない方が多いと思います。英語の文法や言葉にも不規則に変わるものがたくさんありますね。英語の基本の文法に比べて日本語はとても簡単ですよ。大変ですががんばってください。

あなたが書いてくれた事が分かるように時間がかかる（必要？）よりも
よりあなたが書いてくれた事が分かるように�なるには�時間がかかる（必要？）ですね。

どうもありがとう。私にとって、動詞の次に使われている�には�はちょっと難しいです。

あと新しい質問ですが、チャットでbe right backと言ってお友達が去ってしまいました。
そんなときに私から、友達が戻ってきたらなんと言ったらいいのでしょう。
welcome backと言ったらへんだと言われたのですが・・・

友達にとって、Welcome backと言えば、ちょっと失礼かも知れない（じゃない？）。　
computer mail やは言葉の抑揚や話し手の表情などが見えないのでどんな言い方を使ったらいいかと言う問題はちょっと難しいですね。でもこの場合には、多分"Hey there" or "Hi again" のほうがいいかも。

Mac · Mar 5, 2004, 10:54

timeだけなんですか。なんだか納得いかないですが、
そう覚えないと行けませんね。ありがとうございます。
私この日本語が分かりません。
いけませんは通常ひらがなかな？まあどうでもいいや。

welcome backは失礼なんですか？？

がーん。
超へんだとは思ってたけど・・・・もう絶対使いません。
Hi againですね。いいように聞こえます。

Elizabeth · Mar 6, 2004, 00:05

Originally Posted by Mac

time$B$@$1$J$s$G$9$+!#$J$s$@$+G&lt;F@$$$!&amp ;J$$$G$9$!&!&!&!&(B
$B$=$&amp;3P$($J$$$H9T$1$^$;$s$M!#$&quot; $j$!&H$!&mp;$4$6$$$^$9!!&!&(Bw)$ B;d$3$NF|K\8l$,J,$+$j$^$;$s!#(B
$B$$$1$^$;$s$ODL!&!&o$R$i$!&J$!&J !!&^$!&!&!&$I$&amp;$G$b$$$$$d! #(B

Sou desu. Iitakatta no desu.

welcome back$B$O!&!&:Ni$J$s$G$9$!&!&!&amp ;!&(B$B%/shock:(B$BQb%?$,!&lt;$s!!&!&(Bw)$ BD6$X$s$@$H$O;W$C$F$?$1$I!&amp;!&amp;!&amp ;amp;!&amp;$b$&amp;@dBP;H$$$^$;$s!#(B
Hi again$B$G$9$M!#$$$$$h$&amp;$KJ9$3$($^$9!#(B

Chotto setsumei shinikui desuga, seikakuni welcome back wa shitsurei dewanaku sukoshi kitsuku naru to omoimasu.

Mar 4, 2004, 11:49	#1
Mac English Learner Join Date: Mar 3, 2004 Posts: 160	should, should have, must , must have, have to I know these things. should 　　　I should study English. 　　　英語を勉強した方がいい。　　　You should not do it. あなたはそれをしない方がいい。 should have 　　　I should have studied English. 英語を勉強しておけばよかった。 must 　　　You must not do it. 　　　あなたはそれをしてはいけない。　　　You must do it あなたはそれをしなければならない。　　　He must be sick. 彼は病気に違いない。 have to　（mustより優しい言い方）　　　You have to do something 　　　あなたは何かしなければならない。 I don't know from here. must have I must have learned English. 私は英語を学習したに違いない。 I must not have learned English. 私は英語を学習しなかったに違いない。 __________________ I am learning English. If you find any mistakes, please let me know. [?] means I have no confidence in this sentence.

Mar 4, 2004, 12:30	#2
junryuu つつじいつつつつむつつつつけずつつそでつつしめ Join Date: Feb 26, 2004 Location: 武漢, China Age: 28 Posts: 12	Hi there - "must have" (in its past tense 過去形 ) is a construction that implies a necessity of prior occurrence (sp?). Or, in simpler English, it talks about something that had to happen in the past for something now to be true. A: The road is really wet. B: It must have rained yesterday. A: You must have eaten the cookies. B: No I didn't. A: Then why are there crumbs on your face? 日本語で言い方良く知りませんがMacの例文はよさそうです。ところで私のAIMの名はtontetsuですよ。「junryuu」を入力したら他の人が出るかもしれません。確認して欲しいだけです。　 __________________ -- pd

Mar 4, 2004, 16:22	#3
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,508	Originally Posted by junryuu Hi there - "must have" (in its past tense 過去形 ) is a construction that implies a necessity of prior occurrence (sp?). Or, in simpler English, it talks about something that had to happen in the past for something now to be true. Actually it doesn't necessarily imply the necessity of a past occurrence, only the speaker's belief that it was most likely so. "My wallet is missing. I must have left it in the restaurant" when in fact it could be in the car or have been dropped on the street etc. "His English was extremely proficient. He must have been studying for several years now" when in fact he may have simply picked up it very quickly or lived abroad for a year. __________________ たとえ辛くても、永遠に続く苦しみなどないでしょう。

Mar 4, 2004, 23:37	#8
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,508	Originally Posted by Mac I don't know from here. must have I must have learned English. 私は英語を学習したに違いない。 I must not have learned English. 私は英語を学習しなかったに違いない。 Kono baai Eigo de wa kono youna bun de wa imi wo nasanai desukedo. Shuugo toshite wa "I" de wanaku, "He" ka "She" ka tsukattara ii. Jibun ni tsuite hanasu toki ni, mae ni eigo wo naratta ka dou ka to iu koto wo mou shitte iru kara.

Mar 5, 2004, 08:30	#12
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,508	Originally Posted by Mac Yes! I should have used "I need a time to understand what you have written." instead of "that you are written." I knew the meaning "what". what = the thing which ahhhh 日本語で、「あなたが書いてくれた事を理解できるようになるまで時間がかかる（必要？）なんです」という文は正しいですか？　または、あなたが書いてくれた事が分かるように時間がかかる（必要？）なんですそういう文のほうが自然ですか？もっと正確な日本語に直してほしいでしょうか？　私の日本語の話し方は少しおかしいですよね。

Mar 4, 2004, 16:40	#4
junryuu つつじいつつつつむつつつつけずつつそでつつしめ Join Date: Feb 26, 2004 Location: 武漢, China Age: 28 Posts: 12	Hey Elizabeth - Well, yes, perhaps it should be rephrased as a belief or guess? Thanks for pointing that out. I was thinking a little too narrow-mindedly. Remind me not to write these things in a rush and without thinking.

Mar 4, 2004, 17:02	#5
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,508	And in still other contexts, of course, "must have" is nothing more than an indirect embellishment of "must" or "have to." You must have permission to enter the building. You must have an international driver's license before renting a car in Japan.

Mar 4, 2004, 19:03	#6
junryuu つつじいつつつつむつつつつけずつつそでつつしめ Join Date: Feb 26, 2004 Location: 武漢, China Age: 28 Posts: 12	Hey again - That is, of course, correct as well. I was restricting myself before to only past-tense verbs added on to "must have", but of course these are among other uses which people must have familiarity with.

Mar 4, 2004, 21:20	#7
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,508	Well....it's easy enough (for English speakers, anyway ;)) to force these sentences back into their past (perfect?) usage. Are we close enough to where we started yet, junryuu? He must have had permission before entering the building. You must have gotten an international driver's license before renting a car in Japan last year.

Mar 4, 2004, 23:41	#9
Mac English Learner Join Date: Mar 3, 2004 Posts: 160	------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is my memo to translate. construction = 構造 implie = ほのめかす？暗黙の？ necessity = 必要、必然　ねせしてぃー necessarily = 必然的に、やむを得ず　ねせせありー prior = より重要な、前の、先の crumb = （パンやお菓子の）くず occurrence = 起きる事、発生、出来事　おかーれんす extremely = とても、非常に、極度に proficient = 熟練した rephrase = (意味を明確にするために )言い直す belief = 信じる事、考え、信用 narrow-mindedly = 心が狭く indirect = 不正な embelish = 飾る permission = 免許、許可 restrict = 制限（限定）する ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ sorry I need a lot of time to translate and understand that you are written. (This sentence must be wrong.) Yes. I have already added you to my AIM buddy list. I will ask and invite you, when the English class on AIM has opened.

Mar 5, 2004, 01:57	#10
junryuu つつじいつつつつむつつつつけずつつそでつつしめ Join Date: Feb 26, 2004 Location: 武漢, China Age: 28 Posts: 12	Hey - Oy. Head is spinning, and it's probably not just because of two hours of karaoke just now. Elizabeth - I have no idea where we even are at this point, so why don't I just concede that I have no idea and let's move on, yes? I'm even afraid to say that I was talking about the past perfect from Mac's examples for fear of suddenly having lost the distinction between perfect and imperfect verbs. Mac - wow. I'm speechless. I applaud you for taking the time to translate and understand our dialog. With that attitude, I'm sure you'll master English in no time. (can't say the same for myself and Japanese ) - sorry I need a lot of time to translate and understand that you are written. - (This sentence must be wrong.) Very close. Really, there's only one problem, and it's at the end - "that you are written" sounds something like 君を書いた. Or that a person was written - not their thoughts, or what they said, but the person himself/herself. Maybe you meant something like "what you have written" or "what you wrote?" Or maybe "that which you wrote" or "that which you have written?" Again, since I'm clearly not on top of things, I think it'd be wiser to let Elizabeth explain why this is. Anyway, that's it for me. Thinking about and eating humble pie instead...

Mar 5, 2004, 02:59	#11
Mac English Learner Join Date: Mar 3, 2004 Posts: 160	Yes! I should have used "I need a time to understand what you have written." instead of "that you are written." I knew the meaning "what". what = the thing which ahhhh

Mar 5, 2004, 09:34	#13
Mac English Learner Join Date: Mar 3, 2004 Posts: 160	Elizabethさんこんにちは。あなたが書いてくれた事を理解するには時間がかかります。そうですね。普通こういう文のときは�かかる�を使い、必要とは書きません。だけどこの日本語の文を英語にするにはやっぱりneedを使いますよね？ってことでこの文はあってるのかな・・・？ I need a time to understand what you have written.　これはa timeでいいのでしょうか？あなたが書いてくれた事が分かるように時間がかかる（必要？）よりもよりあなたが書いてくれた事が分かるように�なるには�時間がかかる（必要？）ですね。あと新しい質問ですが、チャットでbe right backと言ってお友達が去ってしまいました。そんなときに私から、友達が戻ってきたらなんと言ったらいいのでしょう。 welcome backと言ったらへんだと言われたのですが・・・

Mar 5, 2004, 10:32	#14
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,508	Originally Posted by Mac Elizabethさんこんにちは。 [B]だけどこの日本語の文を英語にするにはやっぱりneedを使いますよね？マク、 "It will take (some, or a little) time to understand what you've written" or I will need time to understand what you've written." どちらでもいいと思います。ってことでこの文はあってるのかな・・・？ I need a time to understand what you have written.　これはa timeでいいのでしょうか？ Timeだけです。物の言い方にルールはない方が多いと思います。英語の文法や言葉にも不規則に変わるものがたくさんありますね。英語の基本の文法に比べて日本語はとても簡単ですよ。大変ですががんばってください。あなたが書いてくれた事が分かるように時間がかかる（必要？）よりもよりあなたが書いてくれた事が分かるように�なるには�時間がかかる（必要？）ですね。どうもありがとう。私にとって、動詞の次に使われている�には�はちょっと難しいです。あと新しい質問ですが、チャットでbe right backと言ってお友達が去ってしまいました。そんなときに私から、友達が戻ってきたらなんと言ったらいいのでしょう。 welcome backと言ったらへんだと言われたのですが・・・友達にとって、Welcome backと言えば、ちょっと失礼かも知れない（じゃない？）。　 computer mail やは言葉の抑揚や話し手の表情などが見えないのでどんな言い方を使ったらいいかと言う問題はちょっと難しいですね。でもこの場合には、多分"Hey there" or "Hi again" のほうがいいかも。

Mar 5, 2004, 10:54	#15
Mac English Learner Join Date: Mar 3, 2004 Posts: 160	timeだけなんですか。なんだか納得いかないですが、そう覚えないと行けませんね。ありがとうございます。私この日本語が分かりません。いけませんは通常ひらがなかな？まあどうでもいいや。 welcome backは失礼なんですか？？がーん。超へんだとは思ってたけど・・・・もう絶対使いません。 Hi againですね。いいように聞こえます。

Mar 6, 2004, 00:05	#16
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,508	Originally Posted by Mac time$B$@$1$J$s$G$9$+!#$J$s$@$+G&lt;F@$$$!&amp ;J$$$G$9$!&!&!&!&(B $B$=$&amp;3P$($J$$$H9T$1$^$;$s$M!#$&quot; $j$!&H$!&mp;$4$6$$$^$9!!&!&(Bw)$ B;d$3$NF\|K\8l$,J,$+$j$^$;$s!#(B $B$$$1$^$;$s$ODL!&!&o$R$i$!&J$!&J !!&^$!&!&!&$I$&amp;$G$b$$$$$d! #(B Sou desu. Iitakatta no desu. welcome back$B$O!&!&:Ni$J$s$G$9$!&!&!&amp ;!&(B$B%/shock:(B$BQb%?$,!&lt;$s!!&!&(Bw)$ BD6$X$s$@$H$O;W$C$F$?$1$I!&amp;!&amp;!&amp ;amp;!&amp;$b$&amp;@dBP;H$$$^$;$s!#(B Hi again$B$G$9$M!#$$$$$h$&amp;$KJ9$3$($^$9!#(B Chotto setsumei shinikui desuga, seikakuni welcome back wa shitsurei dewanaku sukoshi kitsuku naru to omoimasu.

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