keredo

[kara]

3つ質問があります。よろしくお願いします。

1)
逆接の接続詞として、私はhowever、nonetheless、nevertheless 、in spite ofというのを
知っているのですが、これらはどのように使い分けたらよいのでしょうか？

また、これらの4つ以外にもっと適切というか、一般に使われている単語・熟語はありますか？

2)
受験勉強をしている頃、上記のグループと"but"とは違うと習った記憶があるのですが、どう
違うのかは思い出せません。どのように違うのでしょう？　あるいは、butとhoweverそ の他の
語のどちらでも使える場面というのもあるんでしょうか？

3)
「彼は歌が上手いし内気でもないのに、カラオケが嫌いだ」のように、逆接でつなげるべき文章が
複数ある場合、howeverを2回使うのでしょうか？　それともandでよいですか？　ある いは
より適切な他の表現方法がありますか？

He doesn't like karaoke, however he is good at singing, however he isn't a shy boy.
He doesn't like karaoke, however he is good at singing, and he isn't a shy boy.

[Elizabeth]

こんにちわからさん！

ちょっと難しいことを聞いてきますね。 深く考えたことはないですが　できるだけお手伝いしたいと思っています。私にとっても、良い勉強になるです 。考えさせてください。　

それとこのフォーラムは日本人が文法だけではなく、英会話もを手伝ってあげるという目的だと思 います。
ですから、なるべく英語で書こうとしたら、喜んで手伝ってくださる（くれる？）人が多くなるですよ。多分多 くの日本人にとって、会話が最も苦手なのではないでしょうか？出来る限りやってみてね。そして今度、私の下 手な
日本語でからさんの質問に返事をしたいんです。　
　

[kara]

Konnichiwa Elizabeth-san.

I don't know whether my questions in English are more understandable than those of in Japanese,
but anyhow i will try.

1)
Are there any differences among these words each other?:
"however","nonetheless","nevertheless","in spite of","although"

If there are no(or only the slightest) differences, How do you choose the suitable vocabulary for you?

2)
Once I have been lectured that the word "but" can't enter the words group I wrote above,
is that correct?

Are there any patterns that both "but" and "however" can be used?
Have you ever bothered several second to decide which word to use?

3)
How are these sentences? Are they grammatically correct(or correct but strange)?

a)repeat the same negative conjunctive
He doesn't like karaoke, however he is good at singing, however he isn't a shy boy.

b)negative conjunctive and additional conjunctive
He doesn't like karaoke, however he is good at singing, and he isn't a shy boy.

c)two different negative conjunctives
He doesn't like karaoke, however he is good at singing, although he isn't a shy boy.

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by kara

Konnichiwa Elizabeth-san.

I don't know whether my questions in English are more understandable than those of in Japanese,
but anyhow i will try.

Karasan, your English is fine. And I would actually prefer to answer in Japanese, but with this mojibake problem it's hard to predict what the output might look like.

1)
Are there any differences among these words each other?:
"however","nonetheless","nevertheless","in spite of","although"

If there are no(or only the slightest) differences, How do you choose the suitable vocabulary for you?

I think that Nonetheless and nevertheless can probably both be thought of in Japanese as "sore ni mo kakawarazu" or "sore demo (yahari)." And in English they are also interchangeable for "in spite of (the fact)," "however," "even so" etc the only difference being "nonetheless" sounds slightly more natural after a negative admission than nevertheless. While "nevertheless" is more like something was tried to the highest degree possible and for some reason still failed. "Although" and "however" are more general terms and weaker than "in spite of" "nonetheless" or "nevertheless" so they may sound a little awkward if you want to emphasize the contradictory aspects of a situation or the lack of cause and effect between two parts of the sentence.

Ex.
(Although) we were never close friends, nonetheless we tried our best to work together. OR (In spite of the fact) that we were never close friends, nonetheless we tried our best to work together. OR We were never close friends, but in spite of that we tried our best to work together. OR Although we were never close friends, (nonetheless) we tried our best to work together.

Taro has always studied extremely hard, but he failed the entrance examination nevertheless. OR Taro has always studied extremely hard. Nevertheless (In spite of that) he failed the entrance examination. Although Taro has always studied extremely hard, he (still) failed the entrance examination. "Although Taro has always studied extremely hard, he failed the entrance examination" and "Taro has always studied extremely hard, but he failed the entrance examination" don't sound strong or emphatic enough for the situation.


Sorry I don't have time for the others now.....

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by kara

Once I have been lectured that the word "but" can't enter the words group I wrote above,
is that correct?

Are there any patterns that both "but" and "however" can be used?
Have you ever bothered several second to decide which word to use?

I can't really think of any instances where but and however would be used in conjunction, but like I said above "but" is weaker than "however," or "although," is more common, and can stand alone without providing a reasonable reason for an action.

Ex. "It's a nice night, but I don't want to go out." sounds slightly more natural than "Although it's a nice night, I don't want to go out."

"It's a nice nice. However, I don't want to go out." is a little strange because "however" generally points to the cause of a behavior.

3)
How are these sentences? Are they grammatically correct(or correct but strange)?

a)repeat the same negative conjunctive
He doesn't like karaoke, however he is good at singing, however he isn't a shy boy.

b)negative conjunctive and additional conjunctive
He doesn't like karaoke, however he is good at singing, and he isn't a shy boy.

c)two different negative conjunctives
He doesn't like karaoke, however he is good at singing, although he isn't a shy boy.

B comes closest minus the second comma, but none of these are technically proper English. You generally don't use two of any word in a single sentence and Although and however are too similar to go together.

Although he's not shy and is a good singer, he doesn't like karaoke. OR "He doesn't like karaoke, although (or however) he is a good singer and isn't shy."
are correct.

[mdchachi]

> Are there any patterns that both "but" and "however" can be used?
> Have you ever bothered several second to decide which word to use?

Mostly they are interchangeable. Any decisions on which to use would be subconscious for any native speaker. If I am writing a sakubun I might take some time to decide because it sounds childish to use the same sentence pattern and vocabulary frequently in the same paragraph. But I don't think there is enough difference in meaning to think about. The main thing is natural & correct usage.

Is that a haiku in your signature?

[kara]

Elizabeth-san & mdchachi-san:

Thank you for your kind and detailed explanations. Now I feel I'm kekkou familiar with these words.
however, I apparently need more practices to get used to and master them.

>Is that a haiku in your signature?

??
Is this a question toward me?

[Elizabeth]

Konnichiha Kara-san!

To the extent you understood, I'm very pleased. I tried to write as simply as possible and still get most of the nuances across.

And the only Japanese translation of your comments (.....I apparently need more practices to get used to and master them) I'm comfortable with would be something like "Anata ga kaite kureta koto wo rikaisuru ni ha jikan ga kakarimasu." Please let me know a better way.....

[mdchachi]

>Is that a haiku in your signature?

Oops, sorry, I was looking at Elizabeth's signature.

[Elizabeth]

If the n's were intended as a single mora it does come out to 17 syllables, doesn't it?....and the meaning is just risque enough to be considered witty, by haiku standards at least ;).

[kara]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth

And the only Japanese translation of your comments (.....I apparently need more practices to get used to and master them) I'm comfortable with would be something like "Anata ga kaite kureta koto wo rikaisuru ni ha jikan ga kakarimasu." Please let me know a better way.....

You are good teacher so that I can understand them with no difficulty.
So, jikan wa kakarimasen-deshita;)

What I wanted to write was "to know(or to understand) the grammar and nuance is one thing, but to choose the most suitable word subconsciously is another thing".

So, the translation(or what I wanted to write, but perhaps couldn't in English) will be:
in Romaji:
Imaya korera no tango(s) ni shitashinda youna ki ga shimasu. soredemo, sorerano tango(s) wo tsukai-konaseru youni naru niwa, takusan no rensyuu ga hitsuyou na koto wa akiraka desu.

in normal typing(EUCcode):
ｺ｣､茖｢､ｳ､�､鬢ﾎﾃｱｸ�､ﾋｿﾆ､ｷ､�､ﾀ､隍ｦ､ﾊｵ､､ｬ､ｷ､ﾞ､ｹ｡｣､ｽ､� ､ﾇ､筍｢､ｽ､�､鬢ﾎﾃｱｸ�､�ｻﾈ､､､ｳ､ﾊ､ｻ､�､隍ｦ､ﾋ､ﾊ､�､ﾋ､ﾏ｡｢ﾂ� ｻｳ､ﾎﾎ�ｽｬ､ｬﾉｬﾍﾗ､ﾊ､ｳ､ﾈ､ﾏﾌﾀ､鬢ｫ､ﾇ､ｹ｡｣


And these are my original thought in Japanese before I translated it into plain/basic(or incorrect) English sentences to write on the board:
in Romaji:
Okagesama de nandaka nigate-ishiki ga usureta ki ga shimasu. to ittemo, dondon tsukatte ikanai to kekkyoku wa mi ni tsukanai ni kimmate masu kedo...

in normal typing:
､ｪ､ｫ､ｲ､ｵ､ﾞ､ﾇ､ﾊ､�､ﾀ､ｫｶ�ｼ�ｰﾕｼｱ､ｬﾇ�､�､ｿｵ､､ｬ､ｷ､ﾞ､ｹ｡｣､ﾈ ｸﾀ､ﾃ､ﾆ､筍｢､ﾉ､�､ﾉ､�ｻﾈ､ﾃ､ﾆ､､､ｫ､ﾊ､､､ﾈｷ�ｶﾉ､ﾏｿﾈ､ﾋﾉﾕ､ｫ､ﾊ ､､､ﾋｷ隍ﾞ､ﾃ､ﾆ､ﾞ､ｹ､ｱ､ﾉ｡｣｡｣｡｣

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by kara

What I wanted to write was "to know(or to understand) the grammar and nuance is one thing, but to choose the most suitable word subconsciously is another thing".

So, the translation(or what I wanted to write, but perhaps couldn't in English) will be:
in Romaji:
Imaya korera no tango(s) ni shitashinda youna ki ga shimasu. soredemo, sorerano tango(s) wo tsukai-konaseru youni naru niwa, takusan no rensyuu ga hitsuyou na koto wa akiraka desu.

in normal typing(EUCcode):
ｺ｣､茖｢､ｳ､�､鬢ﾎﾃｱｸ�､ﾋｿﾆ､ｷ､�､ﾀ､隍ｦ､ﾊｵ､､ｬ､ｷ､ﾞ､ｹ｡｣､ｽ､� ､ﾇ､筍｢､ｽ､�､鬢ﾎﾃｱｸ�､�ｻﾈ､､､ｳ､ﾊ､ｻ､�､隍ｦ､ﾋ､ﾊ､�､ﾋ､ﾏ｡｢ﾂ� ｻｳ､ﾎﾎ�ｽｬ､ｬﾉｬﾍﾗ､ﾊ､ｳ､ﾈ､ﾏﾌﾀ､鬢ｫ､ﾇ､ｹ｡｣

､�､ｫ､熙ﾞ､ｷ､ｿ｡｣｡ﾖｽ�､ﾀ､ｱ､ﾇ､ﾏｺﾙ､ｫ､､､ﾈ､ｳ､�､ﾞ､ﾇ､ﾏﾍ�ｲ�､ﾇ ､*､ﾊ､､｡ﾗ､ﾈ､､､ｦｸﾀ､､ﾊ�､ﾏ､｢､熙ﾞ､ｹ､ｫ｡ｩ
ﾆ�ﾋﾜｸ�､ﾋ､ﾏﾉｽｸｽ､茖｢､ﾊ､ｫ､ﾊ､ｫﾅﾁ､ｨ､ﾋ､ｯ､､･ﾋ･螂｢･�･ｹ､ｬﾂ� ｻｳ､｢､熙ﾞ､ｹ､ﾍ｡｣､ﾇ､筅隍ｯﾊｬ､ｫ､�､ﾞ､ﾇ｡ﾖｴﾖｰ网､､ｬ､｢､ﾃ､ｿ､� ﾄ�ﾀｵ､ｷ､ﾆ､ｯ､ﾀ､ｵ､､｡ﾗ､ｫ､ﾈ､､､ｦﾉ�､ﾋｲｿﾅﾙ､簗ｹ､*､ﾊ､ｱ､�､ﾐ｡｢ ｼｫﾁｳ､ﾋ､ﾊ､�､ﾊ､､､ﾈｻﾗ､､､ﾞ､ｹ｡｣
､ﾊ､�､ﾈ､ﾊ､ｯ｡｢ｳｰｹ�ｸ�､ﾎｽﾏﾃ｣､ﾋ､ﾏ､ｽ､ﾎｹ�､ﾇｼﾂｺﾝ､ﾋﾀｸｳ隍ｹ､� ､ｳ､ﾈ､ｬﾉｬﾍﾗ､ﾇ､ｷ､遉ｦ｡｣｡｡､�､ｫ､鬢ﾊ､､､ﾈ､ｳ､�､ｬ､｢､ﾃ､ｿ､鬘｢ ､ﾞ､ｿﾊｹ､､､ﾆ､ｯ､ﾀ､ｵ､､､ﾍ｡｣｡｡


And these are my original thought in Japanese before I translated it into plain/basic(or incorrect) English sentences to write on the board:
in Romaji:
Okagesama de nandaka nigate-ishiki ga usureta ki ga shimasu. to ittemo, dondon tsukatte ikanai to kekkyoku wa mi ni tsukanai ni kimmate masu kedo...

in normal typing:
､ｪ､ｫ､ｲ､ｵ､ﾞ､ﾇ､ﾊ､�､ﾀ､ｫｶ�ｼ�ｰﾕｼｱ､ｬﾇ�､�､ｿｵ､､ｬ､ｷ､ﾞ､ｹ｡｣､ﾈ ｸﾀ､ﾃ､ﾆ､筍｢､ﾉ､�､ﾉ､�ｻﾈ､ﾃ､ﾆ､､､ｫ､ﾊ､､､ﾈｷ�ｶﾉ､ﾏｿﾈ､ﾋﾉﾕ､ｫ､ﾊ ､､､ﾋｷ隍ﾞ､ﾃ､ﾆ､ﾞ､ｹ､ｱ､ﾉ｡｣｡｣｡｣[/QUOTE]

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by mdchachi

>Is that a haiku in your signature?

Oops, sorry, I was looking at Elizabeth's signature.

And the girl in your avatar, mdchachi, is that anyone you actually know or just from the picture? ;) I really like it, though, regardless.....

[kara]

> ､�､ｫ､熙ﾞ､ｷ､ｿ｡｣｡ﾖｽ�､ﾀ､ｱ､ﾇ､ﾏｺﾙ､ｫ､､､ﾈ､ｳ､�､ﾞ､ﾇ､ﾏﾍ�ｲ�､ﾇ ｡ｦ､ﾊ､､｡ﾗ､ﾈ､､､ｦｸﾀ､､ﾊ�､ﾏ､｢､熙ﾞ､ｹ､ｫ｡ｩ

Basically correct and native Japanese style/nuance. but 2 points.

First, we seldom say "sho dake dewa". We use "bunshou(ﾊｸｾﾏ) dake dewa", "hon(ﾋﾜ) dake dewa", "shomotsu(ｽ�ﾊｪ) dake dewa", or "XXsho dake dewa" like "setsumeisho(ﾀ篶ﾀｽ�)","kyoukasyo(ｶｵｲﾊｽ�)"or "sankousho(ｻｲｹﾍｽ�)".

Second, you are the teacher and I'm the student in this case. So you'd better say "oshie-rarenai(ｶｵ､ｨ､鬢�､ﾊ､､)" in stead of "rikai-dekinai". "rikai-dekinai" is a matter of the inability of student's side. All of your replies for me are polite and decent style, so this part doesn't fit to.

> ､�､ｫ､鬢ﾊ､､､ﾈ､ｳ､�､ｬ､｢､ﾃ､ｿ､鬘｢ ､ﾞ､ｿﾊｹ､､､ﾆ､ｯ､ﾀ､ｵ､､､ﾍ｡｣

Thank you and yoroshiku onegai shimasu.
....in such case, what should I say as an aisatsu or kimari-monku like "yoroshiku onegai shimasu" in English?
And can you read my nihongo in EUC-code?

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by kara

> ､・ｫ､熙ﾞ､ｷ､ｿ｡｣｡ﾖｽ�､ﾀ､ｱ､ﾇ､ﾏｺﾙ､ｫ､､､ﾈ､ｳ､�ﾀﾞ､ﾇ､ﾏﾍ�ｲ�､ﾇ ｡ｦ､ﾊ､､｡ﾗ､ﾈ､､､ｦｸﾀ､､ﾊ�､ﾏ､｢､熙ﾞ､ｹ､ｫ｡ｩ

Basically correct and native Japanese style/nuance. but 2 points.

Oh, I didn't catch that. Maybe eaten by mojibake. Otherwise it doesn't make sense at all. It was supposed to be jisho dake.....