Koizumi shrine visit ruled unconstitutional

[Maciamo]

BBC News : Japan PM war shrine visit illegal

A court in Japan has ruled the prime minister's visits to a controversial war shrine are unconstitutional.
A number of war criminals are buried at the Yasukuni shrine, which Junichiro Koizumi has visited four times since taking office in 2001.

The district court said that the visits violated laws on the separation of church and state.

But Mr Koizumi said that he found the ruling on his visit "strange" and would go to the shrine again in the future.

"I don't know why it violated the constitution," he said.

Government officials have argued that Mr Koizumi's visits were made as a private citizen, and therefore did not breach the constitutional separation of church and state.

If even the Prime Minister doesn't understand the constitution or political implications for neighbouring countries of visiting Yasukuni Jinja, then what should we expect from other politician or the average Japanese citizen ? Maybe is it just another proof that heads of states are not the brightest elements of a nation.

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by Maciamo

...heads of states are not the brightest elements of a nation.

You can say that again.

[Mandylion]

(Beat me to it Maciamo ) I agree that Koizumi should lay off the visits.

But on a similar and related topic, not that this excuses the actions of the war criminals but there are several points to make.

Just because someone offers prayers to a bad person does not mean that person is admired or being worshiped. There is a common thought in Buddhism, and one that has survived the transition to Japan, that the people who need the most prayers and services in their memory are the evil people, not the good ones.

Good people have enough merit to get into heaven (or even escape the cycle of birth and death) on their own. Conversly, bad people need all the help they can get. Offering prayers for these people is not an act of admiration but one of pity.

"Ah, but Yasukuni is a shrine and not related to Buddhism" I can hear you say. And quite right you are. However, the two have been bouncing off each other for so long that many ideas from Buddhism have made their way in to Shinto. When we are talking about death, something Shinto does not have strong links to, a very high percentage of the ideas come from Buddhism and then are flavored with a very heavy does of Shinto flavor. The kamidana or "god shelf" is almost a direct answer to Buddhist / Confucian philosophical inspired bustudan - a votive object for the family to offer prayers for the souls of the family dead in many Buddhist traditions.

However, it gets shady when we start to talk about spirits who make the direct leap to Shinto kami (god with a little "g") and skip the supposed cleansing in a Buddhist hell. However, kami can, according to some people, have malicious tendencies. These kami of a rougher sort need to be soothed. Soothing is different from worshiping.Thus, it could be theologically argued that just because you make it into Yasukuni doesn't mean you got there because you were a wonderful person. You could be there because if you weren't your kami would be loose on the land doing all sorts of bad things.

Lastly is the issue of translation. The BBC article states

Among those honoured at Yasukuni ...

Word have a powerful impact and we need to be careful when using things like "honoured" in the same line as "war criminal." Translation is critical and often times nuance is very important. This often cannot be conveyed without intimate knowledge of the situation (I am not saying the BBC didn't do its homework, just to be careful). Then a lot will depend on the sources you ask. A nationalist will say the people in Yasukuni are great people, while others who don't care will give you a very different story.

Lets look at our previous example of the butsudan. The rituals done in front of the butsudan relate directly to 先祖崇拝 senzosuuhai. 崇拝/suuhai can be translated as "worship" or "veneration." The two meanings are two very differnt beasts. "Worship" implies the object is a type of diety or one with other-worldly powers. "Veneration" only applies to status and respect. Translating 先祖崇拝/senzosuuhai as "ancestor worship" implies the ancestors are god-like. Translating the same phrase as "ancestor veneration" implies that the ancestors are held in a high level or respect, but not to be a type of diety. When scholars translate 先祖崇拝 the words they choose will have a lot to do with their personal bias.

When we are talking about anthropology it is fairly easy to remain dispassionate. But when we touch on the subjects much closer to home, like Yasukini, all bets are off, and understandably so.

I hope everyone can see I am not saying that Koizumi is correct for going to Yasukuni or that everyone else is wrong. Just that there are complex cultural, historical, and even linguistic elements to the discussion if we care to step back for a minute and check the emotions at the door.

[Maciamo]

Originally Posted by Mandylion

Just because someone offers prayers to a bad person does not mean that person is admired or being worshiped. There is a common thought in Buddhism, and one that has survived the transition to Japan, that the people who need the most prayers and services in their memory are the evil people, not the good ones.

Good people have enough merit to get into heaven (or even escape the cycle of birth and death) on their own. Conversly, bad people need all the help they can get. Offering prayers for these people is not an act of admiration but one of pity.

So how comes that Chinese and Koreans, who have a Buddhism as an integral part of their culture, don't get it and are the first to complain ?

[TwistedMac]

cuz they're chinese and korean and will jump at any opportunity to make a jap head of office look bad.. i seriously think its as easy as that.. aslong as you slightly dislike someone, you'll want to see them shamed.

[Mandylion]

Maciamo - I think a lot of it has to do with politics. I don't buy for one minute that Kaoizumi is making "personal" trips to Yasukuni. It is a political move to keep the far right in-line, pure and simple. Along the same lines, China and Korea get all uppity because there is a very vocal minority that they like to seem to be on the side of and Yasukuni is an easy target to be seen to be being tough on Japan.

Also, while there might be common elements across the Buddhist world, some sects place emphasis on different things. Chinese and Korean Buddhism might have a similar concept of good and evil, but go about expressing such feelings in different ways. I haven't had much contact with Chinese and Korean Buddhism so I am only speculating.

I was also talking in general terms - even some Buddhist sects in Japan might disagree with the statement, but then we start getting into practice vs. scripture debates; best left to another thread.

Plus, Yasukuni is such a flash point and the war years are still very fresh that looking at the situation without emotion is very near impossible.

I wasn't trying to lessen the anger many Chinese and Koreans may feel, but rather speak in more general terms about some general concepts of good, evil, and the afterlife. Plus, while Shinto and Buddhism borrow from one another, Yasukuni is a Shinto shrine, and a religious tradition further removed from China and Korea.

Twisted Mac - "Jap" is a term best avoided. Please add two more letters or use "jpn" if you must shorten the word.

[TwistedMac]

right, ok.. so anyway.. the Japaners...

[Hachiko]

[pquote]FUKUOKA (Kyodo) Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's visit to Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine in August 2001 was unconstitutional because it violated the separation of state and religion, the Fukuoka District Court ruled Wednesday.


Plaintiffs carry a banner protesting Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's visits to Yasukuni Shrine as they enter the Fukuoka District Court, which later ruled on their lawsuit against Koizumi and the government.

In the first ruling of its kind concerning Koizumi's visits to the Shinto shrine, which honors the nation's war dead as well as convicted Class-A war criminals, the court said the visit falls under religious activity that the state is banned from participating in under the Constitution.
[/quote]

Japan Times

[Hachiko]

And here's a follow-up article to that...

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said Wednesday that he will keep visiting Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine despite a Fukuoka District Court ruling that his August 2001 trip there, the first of four, violated the Constitution.


Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi

Dedicated to Japan's war dead, the Shinto shrine in Chiyoda Ward also honors convicted Class-A war criminals. It served as a spiritual pillar of the nation during the war and is still regarded by other parts of Asia as a symbol of Japan's wartime military aggression.

Japan Times

[slickspic]

Koizuni should simply stop visiting Yasukuni unless the temple caretakers remove and transfer the names of the 14 Class-A war criminals.

To anyone who says that Koizumi's visits are simply Japan's culture and business, please consider the following scenarios:

A group in China or Korea enshrine the names of Shoko Asahara and other AUM cult members (these were the people who used sarin gas on the Tokyo subway in 1995, and who planned to kill millions of Tokyoites with sarin) and senior government officials in those countries publically worship them as gods.

Or, foreign academics write books claiming that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are colossal hoaxes, they never even happened (apart from the issue of whether or not they were justified) and that Japan simply cooked up these fictional stories in order to make themselves appear as victims.

If the above scenarios were to occur, don't you think that many (if not most) Japanese would be upset? Of course they would.

Koizumi, Japanese ultra-nationalists and the Yasukuni temple caretakers should stop acting so insensitive and intrasigent, and show flexibility and compromise.

[4321go]

Totally agree!! And this is your first post in this forum~upstair ^_^

[ryushin]

I don't know of any politics but this is MY POINT OF VIEW:

i'm don really like poeple addressing citizen of china as chinese. they should be deem as chinaman or something else. i'm a korean CHINESE. NOt a chinaman. NOTE : I used the word chinamen because many international articles DON'T show the difference between chinese and chinamen. many chinese has been despise by the actions done by china when firstly their ancestors werent from china.

i think hundreds of years ago, didnt chinamen invaded or attempted invasion on korea before? how many people were killed? don say about any other stuff. no one is perfect. they arent to blame too.

secondly japan classed some heros as war 'A' criminals is really something that korean and chinamen should be happy with. the 14 were deem heros, leaders during the world war 2. will future poeple deem present leaders as criminals too? probably. like causing problems like global warming. then maybe future poeple will put those leaders or big MNCs CEO as 'global criminal' and protest in streets, shouting. research shows all our ancestors came from south africa. who believe? and they are the one suffering from some people's actions. or you can say its they arent competitve enough.

thirdly as part of globalisation, china sent its rocket 'to show off' (in peasantship view) or 'to explore' (in political view). this is the time when earthlings should help each other yet they are still completing against each other. and they accuse mr koziumi visting of shrine as a threat to their rocket return to earth. wheres the link? china is jealous or scared? for what? cant be. no, i should say china. it should be some of china. or perhaps most of them. we cant blame the whole of any country for one or two people's fault without seeing the big picture too.

as a superpower indusrailsts, i think people are silly and constantly warring but some might think i'm the silly one. but the fact is that we as citizens CANT chagne anything but the one above (on earth not god) controls. unless we stand up but we'll deem as crminals.

[Tokyo-K1]

The word "Chinaman" can be seen as a rascist term. Even if you yourself is chinese Ryushin, i think you stilll have a lot to learn in coming to terms with your cultural heritage.

the word Chinese can be used on various levels, first of all it describes the ethnic group of Chinese people and secondly it is the term for the nationality of China. Its simple, just take a look at any passport and it will say "Chinese" under nationality.

Im sorry that you feel there isnt a separate term for differentiating the two. But think first, even for example in the USA there are a lot of Irish people, but they are not Irish in the sense that they are of Irish nationality, yet they will still say they are Irish and proud to say so.
If you must have a term, I think the term Korean-Born-Chinese would fit you best.

On the issue of Koizumi visiting the shrines, though I don't make a fuss as to what somebody does in their everyday business I have to say that it is wrong for Koizumi to visit them. If it was anybody else then it's no big deal, but it is the Prime Minister of Japan we're talking about here. He is the countries leader and should lead a good example. But I hear you say "Surely he has the rights like any citizen to visit whenever he wants?", well in my opinion, if you take up such a position then you should be prepared to give up some of your "freedoms". A Prime Minister is no ordinary citizen and thus should not have the same rights. With power comes expectations and responsibility, without such a limits imposed we would end up with dictators.

[lexico]

Welcome to the forum, Ryushin !

Originally Posted by Ryushin

I don't really like people addressing citizens of China as Chinese.

I can see your point perfectly. China in the traditional sense has officially 56 nationalities within its borders as follows;

Han (汉族 : Hàn Zú)
Zhuang (壮族 : Zhuàng Zú)
Manchu (满族 : Mǎn Zú)
Hui (回族 : Huí Zú)
Miao (苗族 : Miáo Zú) (Hmong)
Uygur (维吾尔族 : Wéiwúěr Zú)
Yi (彝族 : Yí Zú)
Tujia (土家族 : Tǔjiā Zú)
Mongol (蒙古族 : Měnggǔ Zú)
Tibetan (藏族 : Zàng Zú)
Buyei (布依族 : Bùyī Zú)
Dong (侗族 : Dòng Zú)
Yao (瑶族 : Yáo Zú)
Chosen (朝鲜族 : Cháoxiǎn Zú), meaning Koreans.
Bai (白族 : Bái Zú)
Hani (哈尼族 : Hāní Zú)
Li (黎族 : Lí Zú)
Kazak (哈萨克族 : Hāsàkè Zú)
Dai (傣族 : Dǎi Zú, also called Dai Lue, one of the Tai ethnic groups)
She (畲族 : Shē Zú)
Lisu (傈僳族 : Lìsù Zú)
Gelao (�i佬族 : Gēlǎo Zú)
Lahu (拉祜族 : Lāhù Zú)
Dongxiang (东乡族 : Dōngxiāng Zú)
Va (佤族 : Wǎ Zú) (Va)
Sui (水族 : Shuǐ Zú)
Naxi (纳西族 : Nàxī Zú) (includes the Mosuo (摩梭 : Mósuō))
Qiang (羌族 : Qiāng Zú)
Tu (土族 : Tǔ Zú)
Xibe (锡伯族 : Xíbó Zú)
Mulao (仫佬族 : Mùlǎo Zú)
Kirgiz (柯尔克孜族 : Kēěrkèzī Zú)
Daur (达斡尔族 : Dáwòěr Zú)
Jingpo (景颇族 : Jǐngpō Zú)
Salar (撒拉族 : Sǎlá Zú)
Blang (布朗族 : Bùlǎng Zú)
Maonan (毛南族 : Màonán Zú)
Tajik (塔吉克族 : Tǎjíkè Zú)
Pumi (普米族 : Pǔmǐ Zú)
Achang (阿昌族 : Āchāng Zú)
Nu (怒族 : Nù Zú)
Ewenki (鄂温克族 : Èwēnkè Zú)
Gin (京族 : Jīng Zú), meaning Vietnamese or Kinh people.
Jino (基诺族 : Jīnuò Zú)
De'ang (�ｺ昂族 : Déáng Zú)
Uzbek (乌孜别克族 : Wūzībiékè Zú)
Russ (俄罗斯族 : Éluōsī Zú)
Yugur (裕固族 : Yùgù Zú)
Bonan (保安族 : Bǎoān Zú)
Monba (门巴族 : Ménbā Zú)
Oroqen (鄂伦春族 : Èlúnchūn Zú)
Derung (独龙族 : Dúlóng Zú)
Tatar (塔塔尔族 : Tǎtǎěr Zú)
Hezhen (赫哲族 : Hèzhé Zú)
Lhoba (珞巴族 : Luòbā Zú)
Gaoshan (高山族 : Gāoshān Zú).

To indiscriminately call all individuals of the listed groups IN China "Chinese" would amount to ignorance and nothing else. However as long as they hold a Chinese citizenship, it would be technically correct to call them collectively "Chinese nationals," or individually "a Chinese national" for administrative purposes. In your case, esp. if you consider yourself Korean by blood AND place of residence, you have every right to refuse the labeling of "Chinese" eventhough you might have been born in China. The opposite possibility of an ethnic Han Chinese born outside of China have the choice of declaring oneself Chinese, or foreign-born Han Chinese to be precise.

Originally Posted by Ryushin

I'm a korean CHINESE. NOt a chinaman. They should be deem as chinaman or something else.

As the poster noted above, "Chinaman/Chinamen" is not considered a respectable way of calling a Han Chinese person mainly because Americans looked down upon the early immigrants from China/Southeast Asia and treated them badly for quite some time. That belongs to the shameful racist past of America which tainted a potentially good name, "Chinaman," as in Englishman.

Originally Posted by Ryushin

NOTE : I used the word Chinamen because many international articles DON'T show the difference between chinese and chinamen. Many Chinese have been despised by the actions done by China when firstly their ancestors weren't from china.

That is because the international reporters are ignorant, not sophisticated enough to make a meaningful distinction, but the general readers wouldn't know the difference anyway. It is absolutely mind-blowing how the average reader in the capitalist world is ignorant of China in every way imaginable, so you would be doing a huge service by making these fine distinctions whenever possible, thanks. I would also like to add that the outside world, due to their guilty past of raping China for that past 171 years since the Opium Wars have been so eager to point out how "backward, poor, and savage" China can be. This is also a result of ignorance and guilt, so don't you feel more uncomfortable than you really have to be.

Originally Posted by Ryushin

I think hundreds of years ago, didn't Chinamen invade or attempt invasion on korea before ?

Well the greatest invaders of Korea were the Mongols 1231-1256; then there were the Manchus in 1627 and 1636, both non Han groups. As for the Han Chinese, two recent invasions would be during the First Sino-Japanese War 1894-1895 and the Korean War 1950-1953. However no invasion from the Han Chinese, the Mongols, or the Manchus ever resulted in the seizure of Korean soverignty and prolonged occupation as in the Japanese invasion 1875 (Kanghwado Incident) -1910 (Annexation of Korea) that lasted another 35 yrs of blood-sucking rape of the Korean nation for 70 years in all.

Originally Posted by kalaniosullivan

[T]he Japanese Meiji government dispatched the navy vessel Unyou into the waters off Kanghwa, forcing the Koreans to open fire, then used this attack as a pretext to demand formal treaty negotiations. Although many Choson government officials oppose entering into negotiations with Japan, King Kojong is persuaded by a few to reconcile with Japan and sign the Treaty of Kanghwa. This marks the beginning of Japan's imperialist designs on the Korean peninsula, which would ultimately result in the formal annexation of Korea under Japanese rule in 1910.

Hence there is ample cause to resent the Yasukuni visits that worship the criminals of the Meiji-Taisho-Showa periods and their victimisation of Korea; the comparison you draw between China and Japan therefore only emphasised the crimes of Imperial Japan in contrast. It is meaningful to note that the first Japanese soldier killed outside of Japan to be enshined in Yaukuni was a sailor who died in the Invasion of Kanghwa Island, Korea, in 1875 on the battleship Unyou (雲揚号). To Koreans, he was the first Yasukuni criminal to be shot down during unlawful entry to Korean territory. To drum up nationalist sentiments in Imperial Japan, he was also memorialised as a war hero at Yasukuni. Now if modern Japanese contuinue in the Yasukuni policy of Imperial Japan, with Tojo Hideki and about 1,068 WWII war criminals decorated as "war heroes," are Koreans to blame to shout down the Yasukuni visitors such as Mr. Koizumi and those in the photos above ?

[lastmagi]

Originally Posted by Tokyo-K1

The word "Chinaman" can be seen as a rascist term. Even if you yourself is chinese Ryushin, i think you stilll have a lot to learn in coming to terms with your cultural heritage.

I agree. Chinaman is more often used in a derogatory way, especially in Western countries. I understand that you may not notice the difference because you've never seen in used in that way, but it's there.

[ryushin]

ya i'm a bit harsh there, but woah, lexico, you got some cool source there!

[celtician]

I think that we can assume that Koizumi is "not playing with a full deck" or "is one can short of a six-pack" like many politicians around the world, the dim bulbs (but powerful of course) are chosen. And why are all Japanese politicians so damn plug ugly is it so that foreign dignitaries hesitate to invite them and therefore Japan can remain wantonly isolated??

[Tokyo-K1]

I have an analogy we could use to put the argument of this thread into perspective, since some of the war dead in the shrine are war criminals.

Would we look lightly on the leader of Germany if he/she were ever to pay respects to the grave of Hitler? I think not, and the same thing can be applied to the war criminals of Japan.

[lastmagi]

Originally Posted by celtician

And why are all Japanese politicians so damn plug ugly is it so that foreign dignitaries hesitate to invite them and therefore Japan can remain wantonly isolated??

Oh, Koizumi isn't that bad-looking. In fact, if it weren't for his complete disregard and disrespect for other countries, his utter idiocy in foreign affairs, and other items that pretty much make him a horrible human being (if even one at all), I'd say he could very well be the subject of many a dreamy yaoi fanfics!

Originally Posted by made up fanfic

Koizumi sat on the leather couch in a small room in the White House, preening his silver-grey locks with a brush and staring wistfully at the doorway. Where could he be? he wondered, anxiously biting his lower lip. Finally, at long last, his lover arrived.

Bush: My dear! Are you okay?

Koizumi: Darling! O how I've waited for you! *flutters eyelashes* O it was so miserable with... HER. Thankfully I've sent her away.... for now.

Bush: Th-That cur of a fangirl! How dare Condi Rice treat you so badly!

Koizumi: Oh her? I was talking about the Harriet Miers lady. The other one I sent to somewhere far, far away. Like.... MASSACHUSETTS! *ROFLMAO, d00d 1 4|\|/| 50 733T. PH34R |\/|Y P0\/\/3R!!!*

Bush: *wince* Please don't use netspeak. You know since I can't even get ENGLISH right...

Koizumi: *random, non-sequitar gesture that makes no sense within the context of this fanfic* I'm sorry.

Bush: *runs and hides, again in a nonsequitar way*

Koizumi: Hyde? HAIDO-sama?! Did someone say HYDE?!!!! OMG I must have that luscious body *playfully chases after Bush*

Bush: WHEEEEEEEEEE!!! ZZAP!!! SPICKLE! VROOM!!!! *insert other unneccessary noise effects and exclamations here*

Koizumi: *insert random and unneccessary emoticon here*

Voice at the door: Ahem!

Bush & Koizumi, together: D-Dick Cheney?!?!?!?!

TO BE CONTINUED...

...Actually, nevermind I said anything.

[Index]

Originally Posted by Tokyo-K1

I have an analogy we could use to put the argument of this thread into perspective, since some of the war dead in the shrine are war criminals.

Would we look lightly on the leader of Germany if he/she were ever to pay respects to the grave of Hitler? I think not, and the same thing can be applied to the war criminals of Japan.

As Mandylion pointed out earlier in this thread, it is not such a simple matter to create cross-cultural analogies without taking into account the underlying differences in perception and belief that make up so called "rational" decision making.

For example:

Originally Posted by Mandylion

There is a common thought in Buddhism, and one that has survived the transition to Japan, that the people who need the most prayers and services in their memory are the evil people, not the good ones.

The point, of course, is not whether you subscribe to this belief, but that there are various possible sequences of logic based on belief systems, and these can result in disagreement as to what is or is not a "rational" decision.

Originally Posted by Tokyo-K1

Would we look lightly on the leader of Germany if he/she were ever to pay respects to the grave of Hitler?

As an aside, it might also be prudent to be more accurate with such analogies. One could argue for example, that Mr. Koizumi is not visiting the shrine of a specific figure (whoever might be considered the Japanese equivalent of Adolf Hitler), but the shrine and those contained therein in general. While one could then argue that Yasukuni shrine represents all who are buried there, including the class-A War Criminals (so paying respects to one means paying respects to all), it could also be argued that Yasukuni shrine represents all who are buried there, including honorable and respected national heroes (and again paying respects to one means paying respects to all). The point is again to point out that there could be a multitude of interpretations for "rational" decisions and that one needs to be accurate and well informed when making analyses (and analogies) of this sort.

Of course from the structural-realist position in international relations, one could argue that culture or domestic circumstances have little to say when it comes to the relations between states.

It might also make sense to consider whether the fuss being made by certain states about Mr. Koizumi's visits to Yasukuni shrine are not at least in part (at least in relation to foreign policy) a smoke screen for other issues such as the one of disputed oil fields in the Sea of Japan, Japanese Constitutional reform re. article 9, or discreditation in regards to UN Security Council reforms.

[celtician]

made up fanfic's little camp scenario is perfect for 'Poodle-hed Koizumi' and the Bush whether it be on the head ..giving or down there.

[celtician]

Excuse me cyber camp! Cheers fanfic!

[celtician]

made up fanfic's post is perhaps the funniest/wittiest thing I have yet to read
so far.. Thanks

[McTojo]

I read a post of yours on another thread yesterday and don't remember where but you made a good point regarding the sanctity of honoring the Chinese victims who were fallen by Japanese soldiers first and foremost. I actually agree with you but I disagree about removing Tojo and the 14 other soldiers who were branded by the Tokyo criminal court as war criminals. Justice was served albiet not to the satisfaction of 12 million asians and allied forces including the citizens of JREF.

Remember, this ruling went back and forth on more than one occasion and more than a hundred law makers and politicians visited the shrine the other day so something needs to be addressed regarding Japans legal system which is another argument for another day.

So at least we can agree on one thing Lexico and that is, is that Japan should keep Yasukuni and that the war dead should be honoured and the Chinese should also be remembered and honoured for being victimized during Nanking.

Maciamo...I don't know what to say to you. Can we remain on topic next time ?

Everyone else...Tojo had a voice too and he deserves to be heard as well.