Two questions and more to come.

[MtoM]

hello everyone

After two weeks of exams we finally met. I did my best in the exams. but since next year is my last year in school I must study every day as soon as the school open again.untill that I will enjoy my vacation as much as I can.

In this topic I will post my questions about japanese.


Q1:Is these two sentence acceptable in （non-polite） Japanese?
お前は８さいのくせに、2さいの子のように泣きます。

お前、子供のように泣くなよ！

Q2：What is the zu form of a verb?(I ask for tons of simple examples and a detailed explanation).

[PaulTB]

Originally Posted by MtoM

Q1:Is these two sentence acceptable in （non-polite） Japanese?
お前は８さいのくせに、2さいの子のように泣きます。

お前、子供のように泣くなよ！

８才 _is_ 子供. I guess ２才 might count as 幼児.
Also 泣いてる might be more appropriate than 泣きます.

Originally Posted by MtoM

Q2：What is the zu form of a verb?(I ask for tons of simple examples and a detailed explanation).

A ton of simple examples can be found for ずに (probably the most common usages of the ず forum) at http://ryouko.imsb.nrc.ca/cgi-bin/wwwjdic?10
if you enter ずに.

Va-zu ni Vb means to Vb without Va-ing.

e.g. 我々は何も食べずに何時間も働き続けた。
We kept on working for hours without eating anything

[rokken]

Hello, MtoM

Originally Posted by MtoM

お前は８さいのくせに、2さいの子のように泣きます。
お前、子どものように泣くなよ!

Well, yours is mixed non-polite and polite form.
So I feel them awkward.
The 1st one, you should end "泣く" but "泣きます".
"泣く" is standard form "cry" in English.
And "泣きます" is more polite than it.

The 2nd, you should say "子どもみたいに" but "子どものように".
Both are the same mean. But "のように" sounds like a explain.
And you can say "泣くな!" rather than "泣くなよ!".
Generally, you use "よ" at the end of the sentence, it sounds softly.

お前は８才のくせに、２才の子みたいに泣く。
お前、子どもみたいに泣くな！

Cheers.

[MtoM]

PaulTBさんへ、
　返事をしてもらってありがとうございます。PaulTBさ んへのくれたサイトはとてのよさそうですね。このサイ トを気に入ります。
はい、
　「ず」のは今わかりますよ。どうも。

rokkenさんは、
　返事をしてもらってありがとうございます。この返事 もやくにたったよ。

＝＝
次の質問：
Q３：これがどこに使われていますか：　「」【】（）( )〔〕『』〈〉{}《》[]＜＞≪≫、，,　　特に第３の。
　　　英語で説明していただきたいんです、よくわかり たいので。

Q4:どの文章は正しいですか？
（私は2と3が正しいのと思います。）
１：本と犬があります。
2:本と犬がいます。
３:犬と本があります。
4:犬と本がいます。
早すぎる返事をしなくてもいいです。


では、いい返事を待っています。

[rokken]

Originally Posted by MtoM

Q３：これがどこに使われていますか：　「」【】（）()〔〕『』〈〉{}《》[]＜＞≪≫、，,　　特に第３の。
英語で説明していただきたいんです、よくわかりたいので。

It's difficult
"特に第３の" ?
Are you focusing this "()" ?
Well, I remember ....
I learned in a school to use "「」", "『』" , "、" and "。".
The "、" use kind of delimiter to read a sentence easier.
The "。" means end of the sentence.
Sentences bracketed by the "「」" means conversation.
For example he said "I'm starving".
In Japanese, 彼は「腹へった」と言った。
The "『』" is used to nest branketed sentenes.
For example, he said "she said "I will go to Hawai"".
In Japanese, 彼は「彼女が『私はハワイにいくつもり』と言ってたよ」と言った。
About other marks, I don't know any rule in Japanese sentences.
I often use them to emphasise.
And "()" focusing by you, I use this in order to complement sentence/word.

Actually there are other rules, I think.

Originally Posted by MtoM

Q4:どの文章は正しいですか？
（私は2と3が正しいのと思います。）
１：本と犬があります。
2:本と犬がいます。
３:犬と本があります。
4:犬と本がいます。

I feel they sound awkward.
Because you use "ある"/"いる" for together animals and things.
"ある" is used for things and "いる" is for animals.
I know you have already know this rule.
So you are asking "There are animals and things" in Japanese and
you show us 4 examples.
My answer is I don't say like your lists.

So, I say
本があり、犬がいる。
or
犬がいて、本がある。

How about this?

Cheers.

[misa.j]

Originally Posted by MtoM

Q4:どの文章は正しいですか？
（私は2と3が正しいのと思います。）
１：本と犬があります。
2:本と犬がいます。
３:犬と本があります。
4:犬と本がいます。

Is there a subject that refers these sentences? For example, "Watashi ha" or, "Koko ni" etc..
3 seems the best answer to me, but I understand that you think 2 seems also correct. I wouldn't say any of those sentences, though...

"book" is a thing which should be followed by "arimasu", "dog" is an animal should be followed by "imasu". However, if "inu" is used as a thing, such as a picture in a book('There are pictures of a book and a dog in this book') , that makes 1 correct.
I would say 3 is the answer to avoid further confusion. Sorry,

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by misa.j

Is there a subject that refers these sentences? For example, "Watashi ha" or, "Koko ni" etc..
3 seems the best answer to me, but I understand that you think 2 seems also correct. I wouldn't say any of those sentences, though...

"book" is a thing which should be followed by "arimasu", "dog" is an animal should be followed by "imasu". However, if "inu" is used as a thing, such as a picture in a book('There are pictures of a book and a dog in this book') , that makes 1 correct.
I would say 3 is the answer to avoid further confusion. Sorry,

As Rokken indicated, none of these 4 are correct.
ネイティブはそんな言い方はしません。 If the subject is a picture of a dog (犬の絵） than of course arimasu is correct.

[misa.j]

To MtoM,
Check if those senteces are whole or if they were translated incorrectly.

To Elizabeth,
Yeah, right. I am a Japanese. I just wanted to think hypothetical sentences since those seemed to have subjects that weren't written.

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by misa.j

To MtoM,
Check if those senteces are whole or if they were translated incorrectly.

To Elizabeth,
Yeah, right. I am a Japanese. I just wanted to think hypothetical sentences since those seemed to have subjects that weren't written.

I see the confusion now. These were most likely just reibun created by MtoM....in which case the native would have to be rokken, not yourself. And they are actually complete sentences. 'Ga' is technically a topic marker, but in this case it simply acts as a pointer to emphasize the person/thing being referred to. Hon wa arimasu is mostly for questions (Hon wa arimasuka? --> Is there a book?). No need for even an implicit 'wa' here

[misa.j]

To Elizabeth,
Sorry, I didn't mean to be arguementative or confusing which I turned out to be...

I wanted to help "MtoM" somehow. I think I should just wait what "MtoM" says.
I just wanted to apologize to you, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth]

Iie, Japanese is enough to confuse anyone. Watashi ni wa sonoyouna shazai ha hitsuyou janaine.

[MtoM]

そうかね．．．
どれでも正しくないですね。
So we must use 2 verbs when refering to the existence of two (subjects) one of them is (intimate) and the other is not.
I thought the verb conjugates depending on the last noun in such sentences...

I mean by "特に第３の" the first three which are 「」 【】 （）



well, Thank you guys
どうも　ありがとう　ございます。


de wa, mata.

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by MtoM

そうかね．．．
どれでも正しくないですね。

「どれも正しくないですね」のほうが良いですね。

[rokken]

Originally Posted by MtoM

そうかね．．．

Sounds old people.

So we must use 2 verbs when refering to the existence of two (subjects) one of them is (intimate) and the other is not.

Generally the answer is Yes.
When you speak like your lists in conversation, they are acceptable.
I guess we will overlook the awkwardness.
But when you write like that, we can find it.

Originally Posted by MtoM

I mean by "特に第３の" the first three which are 「」 【】 （）

"第３の" means the 3rd one. So that is "()".
When you say "最初(さいしょ)の三つ" or "はじめの三つ", we can know the first three.
The rules for Japanese blankets is as what I wrote.

Cheers.

[MtoM]

A question about the kanji.
Look at this list:
右左在存友布有
when you want to write them, which stroke comes first? the vertical or the horizontal?
I found then my 講談社漢字学習字典　in this order:

Is there a rule that tells me which stroke shall I start with?



Next question: what is the deference in usage between these pairs of kanji?
怖:恐
戦う：闘う

[PaulTB]

Originally Posted by MtoM

A question about the kanji.
Look at this list:
右左在存友布有
when you want to write them, which stroke comes first? the vertical or the horizontal?

You can get Stroke Order Diagrams from a number of places, including WWWJDIC 右 SOD

[MtoM]

Well, that is not what I asked.
I want to know the rule, you see that sometimes we start with the vertical line and sometimes with the horizontal line. The stroke order I wrote is correct, according to The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary(講談社漢字学習字典).
Why don't these kanji act the same way, start with the horizontal line for example.

I also need to know the defference in the usage of these pairs of kanji:
怖:恐
戦う：闘う
探す：捜す
聞く：聴く
暖かい：温かい
泣く：鳴く

[PaulTB]

Originally Posted by MtoM

Well, that is not what I asked.

Oh? Who said

when you want to write them, which stroke comes first?

then?

[rokken]

Originally Posted by MtoM

A question about the kanji.
Look at this list:
右左在存友布有
when you want to write them, which stroke comes first? the vertical or the horizontal?

Konnichiwa MtoM,
A stroke of a kanji depends on its kanji.
Even though 右 and 左 have similer shape, their first stroke is different.
You can only remember each kanji's stroke.
Above is a serious answer.

Here is rough answer.
You can write any stroke which you want.
You can only keep the kanji's shape.
Many Japanese write kanjis with wrong stroke.
But ...
those who have good hands write kanjis with correct stroke.
And I guess your teacher is focusing your stroke, too.

GANBATTE.

[MtoM]

PaulTBさん　へ、
There must be some kind of miscommunication, cause the I answered my question in the picture and I put the question I want to have it answered right under the picture ...


rokkenさん　へ、
well,.. I don't have a teacher, I am self-studying.But I like to write in the correct way
I even invented a rule to deal with these kanji:
1- in these kanji 在存 which has an extra vertical line, start always with the horizontal stroke
2- in these kanji 右布有 you　(after writing the first 2 strokes) begin with the vertical line（ロ、巾、月）therefore first stroke for the whole kanji must be the vertical line,too.
3- in these kanji 左友 you (after writing the first 2 strokes) begin with horizontal stroke, therefore the first stroke for the whole kanji must be the horizontal line,too.

I think this rule is simple and accurate, isn't it?

Now, the time for the next question:
the defference in the usage of these pairs of kanji:
怖:恐
戦う：闘う
探す：捜す
聞く：聴く
暖かい：温かい
泣く：鳴く

[rokken]

こんばんわ、MtoMさん

Originally Posted by MtoM

I even invented a rule to deal with these kanji:

Wow! I have never thought like you.
It's very interesting. I can agree with you.

>恐 : 怖
When you use them as おそれる(恐れる/怖れる),
you can write both of them.
They are the same mean.

>戦う : 闘う
According to my dictionary.
戦 : fight by a sword
闘 : fight by a sword facing each other.
Generally we use "戦う" rather than "闘う", I think.

>探す : 捜す
Generally we write "探す".
"捜す" means "search carfully".
We use this kanji for investigation by police.

>聞く : 聴く
"聞く" means "hear something / ask something"
"聴く" means "listen to something". And you can write "聞く" as "聴く".

>暖かい : 温かい
"暖かい" is used for sweater, season, air temperature , etc.
"温かい" is used for liquid. eg. water, soup , etc.

>泣く : 鳴く
"泣く" means someone crying with tear.
"鳴く" is used for animals crying, generally.

Cheers.

[MtoM]

はい。
ありがとうございます。

>恐 : 怖
then I can use both of them to say (kowai) ??.


戦う : 闘う
does that mean I use 戦う when its a fight
and use 闘う when the fight between two face to face
for example describing someone wants to fight another after school can only be done by 闘う
and when to armies fighting each other we use 戦う


>探す : 捜す
when we want to write (sagashimono) I think it's more usual to use 捜す, isn't it?

>聞く : 聴く
so what does (けらけらわらって、聞かなかった）　mean?
the loughed and didn't listen to him
or they loughed and didn't hear him??(in the the story urashimatarou talled the children not to bully animals, then the former sentence came)

じゃあ、また

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by MtoM

はい。
ありがとうございます。

>恐 : 怖
then I can use both of them to say (kowai) ??.

Isn't kowai/kowagaru normally 怖い? (Kowai : To fear something to the self or another person ; Osoreru : Afraid of the unknown, unusual or mysterious)

[MtoM]

すみません
僕、全然知りません。
rokkenさんに聞いてみてください。



また

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by MtoM

すみません
僕、全然知りません。

いいえ、ここでは、友人などと互いに励ましあってとも に上達することができますね。。。。（？？？）