Watashi? Watakushi? Others?

Dan B · Jun 26, 2004, 05:29

When I was a little boy in Tokyo, I learned that わたくし means "I."

But my new beginner's textbook uses わたし exclusively (so far, anyway).

So I looked them up in Kodansha's Furigana Dictionary. From what I understand, these are both fairly formal ways to say "I." Other--presumably less formal--entries are listed below (I'm listing the Hiragana only. Kanji and I don't yet see eye-to-eye...):

あたし

ぼく (I kind of remember this one, but I seem to recall it being used more in a possessive sense.)

おれ

I'm sure that the respective usage of each must be context-specific, but which of these do you all usually hear? Is there a scale of formality that I should be aware of?

Thanks!

Dan

Keiichi · Jun 26, 2004, 06:47

watashi and watakushi are formal. Though watashi is more often used. I think I see watakushi used more by women.
atashi is more feminine and is generally used by females.
boku and ore are masculine and are often used by men. ore is a bit more masuline and informal and can be considered rude.
To be on the safe side while you're learning, just stick with watashi.

**Glenn** · Jun 26, 2004, 07:00

Check out JRef's page on personal pronouns. Also, this page may be of some use.

David Hallgren · Jun 26, 2004, 07:01

Here is a good link for you Dan: http://www.jref.com/language/japanes...pronouns.shtml

PS. Thanks for the credit, I will be glad to make improvements to the editor if you have any ideas!

Keiichi · Jun 26, 2004, 09:25

Cool. Didn't know that Jref had this.

Dan B · Jun 26, 2004, 22:11

Thanks very much, guys. I appreciate all the help and links. I had no idea there were so many different ways to say it. (It would seem that I should studiously avoid several of them!)

Both of those links are great, by the way! A lot of good information.

Thanks,

Dan

**Glenn** · Jun 26, 2004, 23:38

There certainly are a lot. I thought that I knew close to all of them before I looked at the page, but then I found that there were probably ten or so that I hadn't even heard of! It's kind of mind boggling, really. I wonder why the need for so many different "I"s. As far as I know, there has only been one in English for the past couple of hundred years.

Erikku~ · Jun 30, 2004, 08:27

You've probably already got a lot of help.
But I think this page is well worth a look! Lists a lot of ways of saying "I".
http://www.thejapanesepage.com/howto...E MANY I'S

KickAss_Danieru · Jul 3, 2004, 08:39

..after useing the kanji for watashi, i sometimes forget what it means when i see it in hiragana lol... gotta watch that..

Exidez · Jul 6, 2004, 09:36

how can oresama 俺様　be less polite then ore　俺..
sama　様 is a extreme polite ending to put on the end of peopls names

guldo · Jul 6, 2004, 10:12

Originally Posted by Exidez

how can oresama 俺様　be less polite then ore　俺..
sama　様 is a extreme polite ending to put on the end of peopls names

You're right about sama, but I think that's extremely un-polite for 2 reasons:
1) sama is supposed to be put after nouns, not pronouns;
2) the mocking contradiction between ore and sama.

IMHO

Exidez · Jul 6, 2004, 21:02

Originally Posted by guldo

You're right about sama, but I think that's extremely un-polite for 2 reasons:
1) sama is supposed to be put after nouns, not pronouns;
2) the mocking contradiction between ore and sama.

IMHO

hmm
but japanese is so much like maths
for example two negatives make a positive. The same thing happens with verb constructions..

also when one of my japanese teachers was editing my sentence he was adding polite words and inpolite works in the same sentence to make it neutral.. sound weird i know, first time i herd of it...

but yeah, i will find out the truth tommorow, im in japan anyway ;)

Elizabeth · Jul 6, 2004, 21:43

According to my Random House dictionary, ore is actually a noun

-- but I've also seen things like "omaesan" in manga so it may not be such a hard and fast rule....

PaulTB · Jul 6, 2004, 22:45

oresama is extremely impolite* because it is an honoriffic put after a reference to yourself. It is polite to put other people 'higher' with -san, -sama etc. It is extemely impolite to put yourself 'higher' with -san -sama etc.

It has nothing to do with 'ore' being a pronoun or not.

* Now. oresama was used in samurai times as a rather boastful way of raising their own standing in conversation.

Exidez · Jul 7, 2004, 17:46

Originally Posted by PaulTB

oresama is extremely impolite* because it is an honoriffic put after a reference to yourself. It is polite to put other people 'higher' with -san, -sama etc. It is extemely impolite to put yourself 'higher' with -san -sama etc.

It has nothing to do with 'ore' being a pronoun or not.

* Now. oresama was used in samurai times as a rather boastful way of raising their own standing in conversation.

yeah, that semas pretty logical if you put it like that

guldo · Jul 7, 2004, 21:00

Originally Posted by PaulTB

oresama is extremely impolite* because it is an honoriffic put after a reference to yourself. It is polite to put other people 'higher' with -san, -sama etc. It is extemely impolite to put yourself 'higher' with -san -sama etc.

It has nothing to do with 'ore' being a pronoun or not.

* Now. oresama was used in samurai times as a rather boastful way of raising their own standing in conversation.

I see.
Thanks

StorDuff · Jul 13, 2004, 02:50

How about this one: wagahai.

From Souseki's famous book Wagahai wa neko de aru. Apparently it's pretty old and formal, I store it in my brain for fun, although I've never used it and never heard it used.

PaulTB · Jul 13, 2004, 03:25

Originally Posted by StorDuff

How about this one: wagahai.

From Souseki's famous book Wagahai wa neko de aru. Apparently it's pretty old and formal, I store it in my brain for fun, although I've never used it and never heard it used.

I've heard it used ... in anime. And seen it in books ... Harry Potter books.

StorDuff · Jul 13, 2004, 03:57

Harry Potter, really? What was the context, like could you show me the sentence? I don't read those at all

PaulTB · Jul 13, 2004, 04:26

Originally Posted by StorDuff

Harry Potter, really?

Yes really. Well ハリー・ポッター to be more precise.

Originally Posted by StorDuff

What was the context, like could you show me the sentence?

Not really. I gave the books away after finishing them. I think it was Snipe who used it though.

Jun 26, 2004, 05:29	#1
Dan B "Follow your bliss." Join Date: Jun 1, 2004 Location: Woodbridge, VA Posts: 86	Watashi? Watakushi? Others? When I was a little boy in Tokyo, I learned that わたくし means "I." But my new beginner's textbook uses わたし exclusively (so far, anyway). So I looked them up in Kodansha's Furigana Dictionary. From what I understand, these are both fairly formal ways to say "I." Other--presumably less formal--entries are listed below (I'm listing the Hiragana only. Kanji and I don't yet see eye-to-eye...): あたしぼく (I kind of remember this one, but I seem to recall it being used more in a possessive sense.) おれ I'm sure that the respective usage of each must be context-specific, but which of these do you all usually hear? Is there a scale of formality that I should be aware of? Thanks! Dan __________________ The credit for all Kana--and the rare Kanji--that I write here goes to member David Hallgren and his JavaScript Kana Editor. (Of course, any errors made are my own...) どうも　ありがとう　ございます、デイビッドさん! Last edited by Dan B; Jun 26, 2004 at 06:05.

Jun 26, 2004, 06:47	#2
Keiichi Hi Join Date: Mar 9, 2003 Posts: 818	watashi and watakushi are formal. Though watashi is more often used. I think I see watakushi used more by women. atashi is more feminine and is generally used by females. boku and ore are masculine and are often used by men. ore is a bit more masuline and informal and can be considered rude. To be on the safe side while you're learning, just stick with watashi. __________________ K1

Jun 26, 2004, 07:00	#3
Glenn 考え中 Join Date: Jan 8, 2004 Posts: 5,544	Check out JRef's page on personal pronouns. Also, this page may be of some use. __________________ Avoid Mojibake! -- 文字化けを避ける！ Dictionary at Goo - English-Japanese, Japanese-English, Japanese Language Teach Yourself Japanese and Teach Yourself Japanese Message Board Jim Breen's online dictionary and kanji lookup

Jul 3, 2004, 08:39	#9
KickAss_Danieru =Danieru= Join Date: May 12, 2004 Location: New Zealand Age: 21 Posts: 52	..after useing the kanji for watashi, i sometimes forget what it means when i see it in hiragana lol... gotta watch that.. __________________ じゃまた、ダニエル

Jul 6, 2004, 10:12	#11
guldo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 21, 2004 Age: 32 Posts: 53	Originally Posted by Exidez how can oresama 俺様　be less polite then ore　俺.. sama　様 is a extreme polite ending to put on the end of peopls names You're right about sama, but I think that's extremely un-polite for 2 reasons: 1) sama is supposed to be put after nouns, not pronouns; 2) the mocking contradiction between ore and sama. IMHO __________________ グルド大事な物はいつも形の無い物だけ Powered by Debian Sid on Linux 2.6.10

Jun 26, 2004, 07:01	#4
David Hallgren New comer Join Date: Mar 2, 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 95	Here is a good link for you Dan: http://www.jref.com/language/japanes...pronouns.shtml PS. Thanks for the credit, I will be glad to make improvements to the editor if you have any ideas!

Jun 26, 2004, 09:25	#5
Keiichi Hi Join Date: Mar 9, 2003 Posts: 818	Cool. Didn't know that Jref had this.

Jun 26, 2004, 22:11	#6
Dan B "Follow your bliss." Join Date: Jun 1, 2004 Location: Woodbridge, VA Posts: 86	Thanks very much, guys. I appreciate all the help and links. I had no idea there were so many different ways to say it. (It would seem that I should studiously avoid several of them!) Both of those links are great, by the way! A lot of good information. Thanks, Dan

Jun 26, 2004, 23:38	#7
Glenn 考え中 Join Date: Jan 8, 2004 Posts: 5,544	There certainly are a lot. I thought that I knew close to all of them before I looked at the page, but then I found that there were probably ten or so that I hadn't even heard of! It's kind of mind boggling, really. I wonder why the need for so many different "I"s. As far as I know, there has only been one in English for the past couple of hundred years.

Jun 30, 2004, 08:27	#8
Erikku~ Junior Member Join Date: Jun 30, 2004 Posts: 9	You've probably already got a lot of help. But I think this page is well worth a look! Lists a lot of ways of saying "I". http://www.thejapanesepage.com/howto...E MANY I'S

Jul 6, 2004, 09:36	#10
Exidez Regular Member Join Date: Nov 23, 2002 Location: Australia Age: 23 Posts: 133	how can oresama 俺様　be less polite then ore　俺.. sama　様 is a extreme polite ending to put on the end of peopls names

Jul 6, 2004, 21:02	#12
Exidez Regular Member Join Date: Nov 23, 2002 Location: Australia Age: 23 Posts: 133	Originally Posted by guldo You're right about sama, but I think that's extremely un-polite for 2 reasons: 1) sama is supposed to be put after nouns, not pronouns; 2) the mocking contradiction between ore and sama. IMHO hmm but japanese is so much like maths for example two negatives make a positive. The same thing happens with verb constructions.. also when one of my japanese teachers was editing my sentence he was adding polite words and inpolite works in the same sentence to make it neutral.. sound weird i know, first time i herd of it... but yeah, i will find out the truth tommorow, im in japan anyway ;)

Jul 6, 2004, 21:43	#13
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,509	According to my Random House dictionary, ore is actually a noun -- but I've also seen things like "omaesan" in manga so it may not be such a hard and fast rule.... __________________ たとえ辛くても、永遠に続く苦しみなどないでしょう。

Jul 6, 2004, 22:45	#14
PaulTB Manga Psychic Join Date: Jan 22, 2004 Posts: 2,111	oresama is extremely impolite* because it is an honoriffic put after a reference to yourself. It is polite to put other people 'higher' with -san, -sama etc. It is extemely impolite to put yourself 'higher' with -san -sama etc. It has nothing to do with 'ore' being a pronoun or not. * Now. oresama was used in samurai times as a rather boastful way of raising their own standing in conversation.

Jul 7, 2004, 17:46	#15
Exidez Regular Member Join Date: Nov 23, 2002 Location: Australia Age: 23 Posts: 133	Originally Posted by PaulTB oresama is extremely impolite* because it is an honoriffic put after a reference to yourself. It is polite to put other people 'higher' with -san, -sama etc. It is extemely impolite to put yourself 'higher' with -san -sama etc. It has nothing to do with 'ore' being a pronoun or not. * Now. oresama was used in samurai times as a rather boastful way of raising their own standing in conversation. yeah, that semas pretty logical if you put it like that

Jul 7, 2004, 21:00	#16
guldo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 21, 2004 Age: 32 Posts: 53	Originally Posted by PaulTB oresama is extremely impolite* because it is an honoriffic put after a reference to yourself. It is polite to put other people 'higher' with -san, -sama etc. It is extemely impolite to put yourself 'higher' with -san -sama etc. It has nothing to do with 'ore' being a pronoun or not. * Now. oresama was used in samurai times as a rather boastful way of raising their own standing in conversation. I see. Thanks

Jul 13, 2004, 02:50	#17
StorDuff Regular Member Join Date: Jul 6, 2002 Location: Austin, Texas, USA Posts: 61	How about this one: wagahai. From Souseki's famous book Wagahai wa neko de aru. Apparently it's pretty old and formal, I store it in my brain for fun, although I've never used it and never heard it used.

Jul 13, 2004, 03:25	#18
PaulTB Manga Psychic Join Date: Jan 22, 2004 Posts: 2,111	Originally Posted by StorDuff How about this one: wagahai. From Souseki's famous book Wagahai wa neko de aru. Apparently it's pretty old and formal, I store it in my brain for fun, although I've never used it and never heard it used. I've heard it used ... in anime. And seen it in books ... Harry Potter books.

Jul 13, 2004, 03:57	#19
StorDuff Regular Member Join Date: Jul 6, 2002 Location: Austin, Texas, USA Posts: 61	Harry Potter, really? What was the context, like could you show me the sentence? I don't read those at all

Jul 13, 2004, 04:26	#20
PaulTB Manga Psychic Join Date: Jan 22, 2004 Posts: 2,111	Originally Posted by StorDuff Harry Potter, really? Yes really. Well ハリー・ポッター to be more precise. Originally Posted by StorDuff What was the context, like could you show me the sentence? Not really. I gave the books away after finishing them. I think it was Snipe who used it though.

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