what is zen and buddisum

[Knives]

hi im just wondering what is zen and buddisum exactly and are they good religions to follow?

[Mandylion]

You have some big questions there (“what is zen and Buddhism?”) and I will leave you to search for all the details. But here is a good site to get you started.

Buddhism as a system of belief and practice is amazingly complex and intricate. Being one of the oldest organized religions on earth, it has many sects and branches. Culturally, it has been influenced over the centuries by India, China, Japan, and recently the West, in profound and definitive ways. If you accept the basic principals of Buddhism, you can find a version that is right for you – from the aesthetic practitioner who denounces all worldly comforts, to a person living quite happily with a family, expensive house and lavish lifestyle. While diverse in makeup, Buddhism sticks closely to the basic concepts found in the link posted above; they just have different ways of going about showing it.

Zen is a sect of Buddhism that places its emphasis on meditation in order to achieve enlightenment and free their souls from the cycle of birth, suffering, death, and rebirth. In Zen, you do not need a savior figure like in other sects of Buddhism or other religions, (Jesus or Amida or Allah) to come and save you / achieve or realize the Buddha nature within you.

You can save yourself. It might take eons of time and countless cycles of rebirth, but if you try hard enough and obtain pure insight into the very nature of the universe, you will become liberated, and, in a concept kind of hard for many to accept, cease to exist in either heaven, hell, or earth, You become absolutely nothing. If you had to condescend and say there was a “goal” in Buddhism, I would say this is it – the extinction of the self.

As to your question about is zen and/or Buddhism a good religion to follow, that is really a decision you and you alone can make. To me, religion is an intensely personal thing – not to be dictated or “sold” to someone. While not a strict Buddhist in even the loosest sense of the term, I would identify myself as Buddhist if I had to check of a box on a census of the like.

I’m happy with it. I would be more than happy to answer any questions to the best of my limited ability, but you are the only one who can say is zen and/or Buddhism is right for you. Also, don’t take everything I say as gospel do all the reading and discussing from as many sources as you can. Just want to chat about Buddhism, that’s cool too.

I noticed you are interested in the martial arts. Any particular one? While not a expert, I would be more than happy to discuss Zen in relation to martial arts if you wish (help me out by asking some questions though ).

[Knives]

thank you for all the info you put it is very helpful to me. I am very intresred in Japansese shotakan, muai thi boxing, jujitsu, and kendo i beleve that if i train in all those styles i will have focus, evasion, and power behind my self-defnese of course i do not use it to bully people around ill only use it if it has to come down to defending me or my family and friends
thanks again for taking the time to explain it to me

[Buntaro]

Here is a passage adapted from a book on Buddhism, "Turning the
Wheel" by Sandy Boucher, giving a basic explanation of Buddhist
thought, and an outline of some of the major Buddhist demoninations.

[BASIC BUDDHISM, BUDDHISM IN AMERICA]

Buddhism began in the sixth century [B.C.], when an Indian nobleman's
son named Siddhartha Gautama left his [father's] palace in order
to investigate the causes of suffering, old age, and death. After
years of searching and practicing austerities, he turned away from
asceticism. Sitting alone under a fig tree, he attained "enlightenment,"
which can be described as "a direct, dynamic spiritual ex-
perience brought about. . . through the faculty of intuition..."
or, more simply, seeing clearly.

Siddhartha Gautama's enlightenment (which entitled him to
the appelation Buddha) occurred without the help of a deity or
even an earthly teacher, simply as the result of his own efforts..
After it, while he could have remained in a state of solitary bliss,
he chose to give to others what he had learned, and he spent the
next forty-nine years of his life traveling throughout India and
teaching the "Dharma" (the truth, or the way). That his early disciples
came from all social classes indicates that he stood in open
opposition to the Hindu caste system as it then existed. He was
also revolutionary in allowing women to join the monastic order
he founded.

Now, 2,500 years later, the teachings he gave are followed by
somewhere between a third and a fifth of the earth's people.
Chief among the observances they perform are generosity, moral
conduct, and ceremonies expressing reverence. Meditation in order
to achieve the goal of liberation or enlightenment is engaged
in by smaller numbers of more intensely motivated practitioners.
In the West it is meditation practice that is usually emphasized,
and in some instances Buddhist meditation techniques are taught
independent of all religious trappings.

The Buddha taught three universal qualities of human exis-
tence. The first is the impermanence of everything as it flows from
birth to death or creation to dissolution. Next is the suffering in
human existence. This concept has been variously translated, and
one of the more inclusive interpretations is "the general unsatis-
factoriness of life." Some explicators have used the image of a
wheel set slightly askew on its axle, so that it rubs and wears as it
turns, always just a little off balance, as we are almost always a little
off balance in our lives. The third quality is the nonexistence of the
self; a concept difficult for Westerners. In the unceasing flow of
phenomena, the self is seen as having no solidity, no separate existence.
It is viewed as an artificial construct, merely a tool for accomplishing
actions in the world. When told to let go of belief in
the self, contemporary western [people] especially react with outrage,
pointing out that most of us need to build ego-strength and
selfhood, not to destroy it. But this resistance arises from a misconception,
for what one gives up are the qualities in oneself that
obstruct and hinder, and cause pain-the impediments to full realization,
such as greed, hatred, and delusion. In experiencing
oneness with all phenomena one taps into an unshakable strength
far deeper than the capacities of personality.

The Four Noble Truths form the foundation of Buddhist practice. They are:

1. We suffer.

2. The cause of our suffering is our craving, primarily for pleasant
sense contacts and for survival-a craving that can never
be satisfied because of the impermanence of the body and the
transience of any particular mental, physical, or emotional
state.

3. There can be an end to the suffering.

4. The means to that end is provided in the Eightfold Noble
Path.

The Eightfold Noble Path is generally broken down into three
sections under Wisdom, Morality, and Concentration. Wisdom is
comprised of Right Understanding and Right Thought (that is,
purpose or aspiration). Morality requires Right Speech, Right Action,
Right Livelihood. Concentration is reached through Right
Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration (that is,
meditation). This Eightfold Noble Path is called the Middle Way,
for it avoids, on the one hand, losing oneself in sensual pleasures,
and, on the other hand, giving oneself over to asceticism and self-mortification.

An almost universal practice in Buddhism is taking refuge. Often
this begins a practice session or retreat. One "takes refuge" in, or
invokes the protection of, the Buddha, the Dharma, and the
Sangha (community of enlightened ones), which are known as the
Three Jewels or Three Gems. In Western language, one takes
refuge in the enlightened mind (Buddha), in the way leading to it
(Dharma), and in those who achieved enlightenment by traveling
this path (Sangha). Usually in American Buddhism the sangha is
interpreted more broadly as the community of all those who practice,
and this is the sense in which it will be used in this book.

The Divine Abodes, another mainstay of Buddhism, give an idea
of its gentle and benevolent moral foundation. The four qualities
to be cultivated are: Loving-Kindness, Compassion, Sympathetic
Joy, and Equanimity.

As Nancy Wilson Ross has pointed out, "Buddhism recognizes
no sacred and revealed Scripture and no Divine Personality existing
outside and beyond man and his world. Buddhism is not a revealed
faith but a religion of accumulated wisdom, and each generation
is free to add to it without fear of the charge of heresy.'
In this spirit, Buddhism was taken from India to other countries
in the East, and in each new country its practitioners interpreted
it through their own cultural forms, translating the texts into
their own language, devising ceremonies appropriate to their
needs.

There are two major strains or families within Buddhism: Theravada
and Mahayana. (The name Hinayana, or "lesser vehicle,"
sometimes used to denote Theravada, was invented by practitioners
who broke from the original teachings to forge a new path and
who called themselves Mahayana, the "greater vehicle." Thus the
term Hinayana is considered to be denigrating, and Theravada,
or Way of the Elders, is more commonly used.) Theravada Bud-
dhism is based upon the Pali canon, an extensive body of scripture
first written down by the monks of Ceylon in 80 B.C.E., several
hundred years after the Buddha's death. Pali is an Indo-Aryan
dialect of the Buddha's time. Theravada Buddhism was originally
dedicated to the ideal of individual salvation and set forth monasticism
as the way to that end. While it has taken quite liberalized
forms in the West, its practice in Southeast Asia can be seen as the
"fundamentalism" of Buddhism.

The Mahayana, which matured in northern India during and
following the first and second centuries C.E., is based on the Sanskrit
version of the scriptures, and comprises all the forms developed
after Theravada, principally Pure Land and Zen as they are
practiced in China, japan, Korea, and other countries, and Tibetan
Buddhism. Sanskrit is the traditional sacred and scholarly language
of India. The Mahayana proposed the ideal of salvation for
all and developed forms of popular devotion and universal secular
service to humanity. The term Vajrayana is used to indicate Tibetan
Buddhism, and some practitioners think of the Vajrayana
as a separate strain in Buddhism, but it is generally seen as a type
of Mahayana manifestation.

One important distinction between the Theravada and Mahayana
is the role of the Bodhisattva. In Theravada Buddhism, the
Bodhisattva is one who has set himself or herself on the path to
enlightenment or Buddhahood. In this endeavor he or she will
practice the paramis or perfections, including loving kindness toward
other beings. With full cultivation of these perfections, he
or she will become a Buddha and will enter Nirvana at death. In
Mahayana Buddhism, the Bodhisattva is a person who has the
same wisdom and virtue as a Buddha but who delays the eventual
entry into Nirvana in order to stay in the world to help all sentient
beings achieve enlightenment.

Most of the types of Buddhism practiced in the world today
have found their way to the United States, where it is estimated
there are several million Buddhists. Three major forms followed
by Americans are Zen, Theravada, and Tibetan Buddhism. Also
practiced here are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhism.

Theravada Buddhism is the oldest form, having arisen within a
few hundred years after the Buddha's lifetime. Considered the
most austere path, it thrives in Southeast Asian countries such as
Sri Lanka, Burma, and Thailand, and it has some foothold still in
India. The Theravada path is a gradual one, in which through
meditation and study and the following of an ever more scrupulous
moral life one eventually gains enlightenment. Although there has
been considerable Theravada activity in this country for the past
ten years, with the establishment of one large teaching center and
several smaller ones, and at least one functioning monastery that
ordains monks and nuns, it has operated in relative obscurity.

[While most people say that there are two major strains of Buddhism (Therevada
and Mahayana) there is also Vajrayana, called by some the third
turning of the wheel. Some even say that there has been a fourth
turning of the wheel known as Dzogchen which includes Tantric practices.]

Zen Buddhism grew up in China, then was taken to Korea, Japan,
and other countries. It expanded upon, and in some of its methods
and ideas diverged from, the Theravada tradition. In Zen, intuition
is the faculty most valued, and it is believed that
Buddhahood is not something to be achieved or developed but
exists in each of us right now. The effort then is to realize our own
already preexisting condition of enlightenment. Undoubtedly
Japanese Zen is the best-known form of American Buddhism,
having been picked up and written about by the beatniks in the
late fifties and widely popularized by writers such as Alan Watts,
D. T. Suzuki and Nancy Wilson Ross. Many Zen centers were established
in the sixties and seventies on both coasts, most of them
headed by Japanese Zen masters and peopled with young college
dropouts disillusioned with their parents' middle-class lifestyles,
their appetites for spirituality whetted by experimentation with
L.S.D. and marijuana. As the Japanese type of Zen encourages
tremendous industry and commitment, through the efforts of the
students most of these Zen centers have survived and grown to be
financially and spiritually viable institutions. Korean Zen has also
taken root in this country through the efforts of one particularly
energetic teacher, Seung Sahn (or Soen Sa Nim), whose headquarters
is in Providence, Rhode Island.

Tibetan Buddhism, as its name indicates, developed in the tiny
isolated country of Tibet. Because of the harsh and mountainous
conditions of its homeland and the resulting culture of its practitioners,
as well as the folk traditions from which it drew elements
of its practice, it is in some respects quite different from both
Theravada Buddhism and Zen Buddhism. It places strong emphasis
on loyalty to a teacher, and it employs techniques of visualization
and other mystical practices. While Theravada
accoutrements are usually fairly minimal and Zen in particular
tends toward extreme simplicity, Tibetan ritual and trappings are
elaborate and colorful. There are a number of different schools
of Tibetan Buddhism, with their respective leaders, but the best-known
representative is the Dalai Lama, [who is the head of state and
spiritual leader of the Tibetan people.] Because of his
flight from the Chinese invaders in the 1950s, his establishment
of a government in exile in India, and his several visits to the United States,
he is well known to the West. The Tibetans, who have
nb homeland, are very active in establishing themselves in other
countries: several Tibetan sects maintain successful centers and
educational establishments in this country.

In addition to the above types of Buddhism, several other
forms are vigorously pursued in the United States.

The Pure Land school of Buddhism, which developed in China,
rather than relying on meditation uses recitation of the name
"Amitabha" (the name of a historical Buddha) to qualify the practitioner
to be reborn in the Pure Land after death. From the
Pure Land it is possible to reach enlightenment.

The Japanese versions of Pure Land Buddhism are Jodoshu and
Jodo Shinshu, the latter being presently the largest denomination
of Japanese Buddhism. Jodo Shinshu has established many centers
in the United States, organizing itself under the name "Buddhist
Churches of America"....

Nichiren Buddhism is a Japanese form with various subsects (two
are Nichiren Shoshu Soka Gakkai of America and Nipponzan Myohoji),
based upon the teaching of a thirteenth-century
Japanese [religious leader] named Nichiren. It includes no silent meditation
but uses the chant "Nam myo ho renge kyo," and adherents
dedicate themselves to the goal of world peace, often engaging in
social and political action. Nichiren Shoshu of America, alone
among Buddhist sects, vigorously proselytizes and recruits
members.

As might be expected, the majority of Buddhist activity takes
place on the coasts [of America], with New England, New York, and
Washington, D.C., having many important Buddhist centers and California
having perhaps the most Buddhist activity. But there are
many Buddhist groups and centers in the Midwest, the South, and
the West, one of the largest being in Boulder, Colorado.

The picture of American Buddhism can be a confusing one.
For example, some people are drawn to Buddhism because it has
so little ritual, while others indicate that they chose it for its rich
liturgy. The reader will have to bear with such seeming contradictions,
understanding them to indicate the diversity of practices
that fall under the category of Buddhism.

The language or languages of Buddhism can be similarly bewildering.
Preeminent is Sanskrit. But Theravadin Buddhists adhere
to the Pali terms. The Chinese, japanese, Koreans, Sri Lankans,
Burmese, Tibetans, and other national groups translated the
original Buddhist texts and developed their own forms in their
own languages.

[digicross]

Really, when it's down to the basic, like Lovejoy said it, "They're all pretty much the same."

I don't get it on why people saying stuff like "In Zen, you do not need a savior figure like in other sects of Buddhism or other religions". Considering in the basic, these religions really don't require a saviour.

Was Jesus a saviour? No, not exactly, he and also with God/Gott/Dio/Eloh/Allah/etc speaking and acting through him basically told people to save themself. Some people were quite mad when they ask for a saviour, and instead they got a loud mouth person telling them on how they were doing things wrong.


Now if Knives want some hints on self defense and religion in general, here's a hint.

It's all about you. Only you and not about something else. It's not about your family, it's about your friends, it's not about your community, it's not about your country, and so on.

Selfish? Egoist? Self-centered? Wagamama? Yes, but that's the truth.

There are reasons on why they called 'self defense' and not 'community defense', 'family defense', 'Iraqi defense', and so on.

You got to know yourself and do things for yourself.

If things work right, you really got nothing to worry about. What about the community then? Heck, if you do things right, the community benefits from your actions.

Here's one example of a quite selfish man: Jesus son of Maryam, the Messiah.

Other saints (like Buddha) are also quite selfish people, but look at them, the things they do benefit people.


Anyway. Are you familiar to the concept of the holographic universe? That's also one concept that you need to think about.

[Mandylion]

Some good points to think about, digicross, thank you.

I'm a little confused though, maybe you can help me out.

Originally Posted by digicross

Was Jesus a saviour? No, not exactly, he and also with God/Gott/Dio/Eloh/Allah/etc speaking and acting through him basically told people to save themself. Some people were quite mad when they ask for a saviour, and instead they got a loud mouth person telling them on how they were doing things wrong.

Who were/are "some people?" Who got mad and when?

Also, from my discussions with Christians and my admittedly only passing familiarity with the bible, Jesus is about as big a savior figure as you can get. Of course things break down further and further by sect and when what was said, but even if you do all the wonderful things in the world, if you don't believe in Jesus, you ain't gettin' into heaven.

Savior figures work by giving your very soul over to that entity and trusting fully that through their grace you will get into heaven (or what have you). This is how, even if you have been a sinner all your life, raped, murdered and pillaged, if on your deathbed you give your spirit fully and 100% over to Jesus, you will escape damnation. However, if you did the work of 10 saints, if you do not accept Jesus before you die, too bad. If Jesus was not a savior figure, it wouldn't matter what religion you came from, and none of this deathbed conversion stuff would be even theologically possible.

Of course, as you and I know, these are slightly hardline views - but views you will not have trouble hearing from mainstream Christians - but since we are talking about Zen in general terms, we should talk about other religions that way too.

In Zen, there is no figure to place such trust in, thus, I can say that unlike other religions, Zen has no savior figure. No one's grace is going to get you anywhere, unlike the possile deathbed conversions of other religions.

You are most likely correct when you say that at their basic level savior figures are not required. However, we can't talk about a single aspect of one religion (basic Christian etc. thought) in terms of the complete religious system of another (the concept of savior figures and Zen). We either have to look at how religion is practiced as a complete system, how it was practiced at a specific point in time, or otherwise somehow narrow things down to where we are discussing under than same rules. If we only view a few ideas in isolation to the rest of the system, I fear we will miss the forest for the trees, and talk around each other rather than to salient points.