James Clavell's Shogun

[canadian_kor]

Any thoughts on this book?

[RockLee]

Hey Kor....what's it about? Maybe I'll go look it up

[Uncle Frank]

I sure loved the movie!

Frank

[Glenn]

Wasn't it a mini-series that ran for a week or two back in the seventies? I saw a little of it on the Hallmark channel or something like that a few months ago.

[kirei_na_me]

Yes, Richard Chamberlain was in it.

[Uncle Frank]

My first VCR was an RCA model for $1200, boy have they changed since then! Now I need to get time to put 225 six hour tapes onto DVD's .

Frank

[canadian_kor]

Originally Posted by RockLee

Hey Kor....what's it about? Maybe I'll go look it up

It's a book written in the 1970s (over 1100 pages) turned into a TV series. It's about an Englishman who became stranded in Japan with his crew during the Tokugawa period. I've read only 1/3 of it so far. So far very good and gives you a glimpse into Japanese life, politics, and culture during that period.

[Uncle Frank]

already seen the movie, rent it! For it's day, it was really good! I think it was as good as "The Last Samuri"?

Frank

[Dan B]

The DVD set came out about 9 months to a year ago and I bought it. The miniseries originally came out around the same time that I moved over to Japan in the late 70s. I liked the series (and still do), but I remember hearing that the Japanese reaction to it wasn't very positive.

It's set about 30-50 (?) years after Jesuit missionaries first arrived in Japan. Blackthorn, played by Chamberlain, is a western navigator (they call him あんじんさん, which I'm to understand means "pilot") who leads the first non-Portuguese trading vessel into Japanese waters. He's an interesting character, but he's no linguist...

For example, after being made a samurai and given a beautiful katana and wakazashi by Lord Toranaga, who is among the most powerful military leaders (daimyo?) at the time, Blackthorn says, "どおも."

Even when I was a kid I figured Blackthorn's response was at least a little informal for such a situation...

Dan

[senseiman]

I made the mistake of renting the edited version of the series, which was absolute crap. They cut out so much of it to fit it into a 2-hour tape that none of the story made sense.

I have a personal interest in it because I live right next to the castle they used in the series as "Osaka castle". Its really Himeji Castle.

The story is in large part based on the real adventures of an English seaman named William Adams, who was the pilot of a Dutch ship that washed up off the coast of Kyushu after crossing the globe via the straight of magellan. I kind of dislike Shogun because Clavell for some reason felt it necessary to change all the names and fictionalize some of the events of Adam's life when a re-telling of his actual story would have been much more interesting. Adam's rose form being a fugitive sailor to being one of Tokugawa Ieyasu's most trusted advisors, and was awarded the rank of Hatamoto, which was just below the rank of Daimyou, the local lords who controlled Japan's feudal society. There is a good book called "Samurai William" out there, which has a pretty entertaining portrayal of Adam's life and that of the other English and Dutch traders who first arrived in Japan at the beginning of the 17th century.

[Duo]

Originally Posted by canadian_kor

It's a book written in the 1970s (over 1100 pages) turned into a TV series. It's about an Englishman who became stranded in Japan with his crew during the Tokugawa period. I've read only 1/3 of it so far. So far very good and gives you a glimpse into Japanese life, politics, and culture during that period.

I read it all, about 3 years ago. Is very good, very detailed, very descriptive. A must have for Japanophiles. There is a very good ninja ambush scene in it.

[DoctorP]

Kor...
I haven't read the book yet, but I saw the mini-series when I was a kid.

If you like that one, pick up a copy of Mushashi. It is about Miyamoto Musashi, one of the most famous swordsmen in Japanese history. In over 60 bouts, he never recorded a loss! It is about 1000 pages, but very addictive and hard to put down! IMHO

[okaeri_man]

i love that book! i discovered it in my bookshelf one day (passed down with all the other old books from my parents), and read it everyday, not wanting to sleep, until i finally finished it. and i'm not usually much of a reader...

i read it again since then since it was so good, but there were a few japanese errors in it. actually quite a few it's shiKATA ga nai, not shigata ga nai damn it! everytime i saw that i corrected it in my book.

Originally Posted by Dan B
He's an interesting character, but he's no linguist...

well perhaps... but by the end of the book he did reach a fairly fluent level - pretty decent considering the short time he was there for.

[TwistedMac]

very good book IMO.

Whoever directed the series had the poor judgement of casting the frail little Richard Chamberlain in a role made for some Sean Connery type guy.

as usual in this type of thing book>film

[Bob in Iowa]

I read the book shortly after it was first published in the mid 1970's, and truly enjoyed every page. Coincidentally, I was living in Japan at the time, which, I am sure, made it all the more interesting, since although I was stationed there in the USAF, I had become immersed in the culture after the first year or so -- being 'one of them boys who went native'.

As is usually the case when a book that one really has enjoyed reading is made into a movie, the imagery on the screen does not compare with that which is conjured in the mind -- such was the case with the mini-series. Also, I echo the opinions of others who have posted in this thread that Richard Chamberlain was a poor choice for the lead role. I do recall that the costumes and scenery of the mini-series were quite pleasing even though some of the acting missed the mark.

--Bob

[AE86]

My wife and I just watched the series again back in the spring. I remember it coming out when I was a kid, and I was not allowed to stay up late to watch it.

I have not read the book so I can't comment on that, however no movie ever does a book justice, even a 10 hour mini-series for a 1100 page book!

Having said all that, I think Richard Chamberlain was a fine choice and I will tell you why. A better actor like <insert your favorite here> would have stolen all the scenes. As it is, you really get a chance to know the Japanese actors and the supporting actors because their characters are not our acted by Chamberlain. And besides all that the story is called "Shogun" not "Pilot" which is why the story abruptly ends with Toranaga (Tokugawa) becoming Shogun.

I do agree with Sensaiman that it should be more historical. There is no sense in changing all the names when the real story is so awesome in the first place.

One interesting note about watching the DVD, is the special features disc. In in one very cool fact is that Yôko Shimada who plays Mariko didn't speak a word of English. All the English she speaks in the film she has no idea what it means! That alone is enough to make me say...job well done!

[layn]

I watched it on TV a couple years ago. Great stories, and unexpected ending.
But that was the best scene of Japanese history in gaijin point of view.
I have never seen a better one after that.

[sadakoyamamura]

The love triangle :winklove: was one of the many things I liked:

Buntaro + Lady Mariko + Anjin-san =

Did you know that aside from the book and the mini-series there is also a Shogun the game version and that a Broadway Musical based on the book was presented at the Marquis Theater in 1990-1991? I don't know how good the game is though...

[Shooter452]

Originally Posted by Frank D. White

already seen the movie, rent it! For it's day, it was really good! I think it was as good as "The Last Samuri"?

Frank

I think that SHOGUN was more historically accurate than was the Last Samurai
especially as far as the details of feudal Japanese culture and--most importantly--in the caste system, regarding gaijin and their position within it.

Blackthorne--the Anjin-san--was raised up to the exalted position of hatamoto by Toranaga-sama (for services rendered and more to come later). He was not made samurai, which was largely a hereditary position which only a Japanese could hold. The catch was the fact that up until the Anjin-san had been made hatamoto, no one holding that position had not first been samurai. When he wore the borrowed daisho no one knew if it was correct or not, and he got away with it...in the book.

Clavel researched his book rather carefully, despite some errors here and there, and there was a historical version of Blackthorne, but I think that the relationship was tenuous.

The story line behind the Last Samurai was much less historically accurate, IMHO. If the two scripts were to be evaluated, Clavel's story would have been historical fiction, but the other would have been classified as historical fanatasy.

What both stories do well is provide a window onto the mysticism that is woven into the warrior ethos of the samurai caste and, in the case of Clavel, the binding threads of obligation that are woven web-like between and around the Japanese feudal lords and their vassal-retainers.

WOW! It laid me out when I read Clavel! I have still not fathomed the depth of that philosophy, and I have read much on it.

My favorite character in SHOGUN was Yabu-sama. Despite being a sadistic brute, he was a side of bushido that I understood. He also showed that despite his treachery he was indeed a man of honor.

I really must get another copy. When my house burned down in 2000, mine was ruined by water damage.

[TwistedMac]

heh, sort of ironic it got damaged by water when your house burned down

anyway, it should also be taken in to account that james clavell has experienced the japanese culture first hand under rather extreme circumstances... he was in a prison camp in Japan... was it during the 2nd world war? hmmm... I can't remember...

Noble House, Whirlwind, Gai-Jin and Tai-Pan are also interesting reads by clavell, although none is as good as Shogun, and each is ...less good... than the last, chronologically.

[Shooter452]

Also he wrote King Rat about POW's in Burma. I read that while a patient aboard the USS SANCTUARY in 1969, courtesy of the SEAsia War Games (2d Place participant). Good read, but as with most authors, his books got better with practice. Clavel in my opinion peaked with SHOGUN but that is not to say that his others were not worth reading.

The firemen tell me that most damage in a house fire is by water and smoke. Whatchagonnado?

[TwistedMac]

oh right, forgot about king rat >_<

[phelonious]

the book's absolute fantasy. an essentialist's dream of something that never was.

[gokarosama]

I take issue with "Phelonious's" statement. How, pray-tell, can one place such a dismissive judgment on what is supposed to be historical fiction in the first place? Of course the names are changed and the situations never REALLY happened exactly as they may have occured historically. It's a NOVEL! And based, at least, on a real Westerner and real Japanese, unlike, say LAST SAMURAI, which I also, actually, enjoyed (except the ninja's....insert eyeroll).

It's Clavell's best, by my account. Definitely worth reading, and much more juicy than the miniseries, which I also enjoyed.

[Dutch Baka]

The movie was awsome i think... i liked the girl a lot sexyyyyy ....

i liked the story, and i liked that with every japanese word he said it in english to.... nice learning for japanese also ....

great movie..!!! i watched the 9 hours isnt (12....) in 2 days...