1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Japanese and other east asian ethnicities, races, genetic origin, some DNA analysis

Discussion in 'All Things Japanese' started by Color red, Oct 21, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Color red

    Color red 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 21, 2006
    224
    3
    It's been a while since I've been in japan. As I've seen many threads concerning the origin of many east asian people on various asian forums, I am increasingly keen to delve into the division of east asian ethnicities essentially from scientific viewpoints.

    Consensus scientific conclusions seem to be that han chinese population who comprise more than 90% of chinese people have a high correspondece with the south east asian people such as Vietnamese, Cambodian, and others. Unfortunately, genetic studies on korean people are always incomplete due to the insufficient results, but many predict that korean population are related to the people in mongol, manchuria (north east china, where 10 million local population lives there), and has a relation to japanese due to the recent migrations to japanese archipelago. Japanese, on the other hand, are said to come from various places, south east asia, sibelia, china, korea, and polynesia, Oceania. In this thread, I would like to take a more scientific approaches in our pursuit of history. A key difference from other threads is a focus on genetics, and systematic methodology in our analysis of genetics.

    First, I will clarify our essential ingredients of the human population analysis by means of genetics. We have roughly three types of the approaches when examining the human population:

    (1) Microsatellite/RFLP in loci other than Y-chromosome/mtDNA. A rather too broad, and generally not useful.

    (2) Y-chromosome/mtDNA: Currently most credited study due to larger sample sizes. Non-recombining nature allows the easy analysis, and thus accessible to many genetics novices.

    *QTL are usually used. (1) is more prone to Linkage disequilibrium.

    (3) Complete genome approaches: Still premature at this stage. Number of population were never more than 300 in each group, thus difficult to make inferences.

    Other approaches which are in general more experimental nature, and has low credit from academia include HLA, Loci-homogeniety, random mating (HWP), simulation-based, etc.

    In conclusion, (2) is currently most useful. (3) would replace (2) when technological advance allows, but the results of (2) would still be viable.

    One important issue with (2) is that maternal lineage finding by mtDNA is not as reliable as with Y-chromosomes.

    mtDNA is arguably non-recombinant. Schwartz and Vissing 2002 showed that this would not be the case, and there are even recombinations between female and male mtDNA. However, this seemingly important finding was easily proven to unaffect the existing population studies.

    (1) The slight recombination factor we see is just too small to make impact to existing studies.
    (2) clonal assumption does not hold for the human population genetics and methodology

    But the male/female ancestry detection by means of mtDNA might be biological non-sense, because of the possible recombination leakage from female to male, and vice versa.

    Y chromosome has a characteristic of passing from father to orphan. It has 78 genes, coding for only 23 distinct proteins. mtDNA has 37 genes overall. Genetic studies make use of the non-recombining portion of the Y-chromosome.

    The mutation rate in mtDNA can even be 0.1% in one generation (as a result of shorter nucleotides), which means that in thousand years, we might get the huge biases, which we can usually not tolerate. Y is however only pointing male ancestral relationship, thus we need the mtDNA to find the support for the conclusion from Y to complement the missing story of female lineages.

    This is however questioned by the recombination events in mtDNA between male and female. However, the existing mtDNA results should be still a sound indicator comparing to the HLA, loci-homogeneity, RFLP/microsatellites, since the mutation rates in these loci are much higher, and thus even less credible.

    In this thread, I would like to shed some new light on the ethnicities of east asian people by citing the studies on Y-chromosomes, with a possible coupling of the results from mtDNA.
     
    #1
  2. Color red

    Color red 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 21, 2006
    224
    3
    Two Y-chromosome-specific polymorphisms 12f2 and
    DFFRY in the Japanese population and their relations
    to other Y-polymorphisms, Ashraf A Ewis, Juwon Lee, et al
    [​IMG]
    Table 2. Frequency distribution of the polymorphisms of 12f2 and DFFRY gene among males from different populations
    considering their Y chromosome compound haplotypes using three (YAP, 47z/StuI, and SRY) biallelic markers.
    Michael F. Hammer テδ・Tatiana M. Karafet, Hwayong Park et al
    Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer
    and farmer Y chromosomes
    [​IMG]
    Fig. 2 Maximum-parsimonytree of 44 Y chromosomehaplogroups together with their frequencies in Japan and five Asian regions. Samples sizes for each region: Japan 259; northeast Asia (NEA) 441; Southeast Asia (SEA) 683; central Asia (CAS) 419; south Asia (SAS) 496; Oceania (OCE) 209. Major clades (i.e., Cテ「竄ャ窶彝) are labeled with upper case letters to the left of each clade. Mutation names are given along the branches. The length of each branch is not proportional to the number of mutations or the age of the mutation. Dotted lines indicate internal nodes not defined by downstream markers (i.e., paragroups). The names of the 41 haplogroups observed in the present study are shown to the right of the branches. Haplogroup frequencies are shown on the far right, and frequencies of selected Japanese clades are shown within black boxes.
    [​IMG]
     
    #2
  3. Color red

    Color red 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 21, 2006
    224
    3
    Y chromosomal DNA variation in east Asian populations and its potential for inferring the peopling of Korea.

    Kim W, Shin DJ, Harihara S, Kim YJ.

    Department of Biology, Dankook University, Cheonan, Choong-Nam, Republic of Korea. wookkim@ansco.dankook.ac.kr

    We have examined variations of five polymorphic loci (DYS287, DXYS5Y, SRY465, DYS19, and DXYS156Y) on the Y chromosome in samples from a total of 1260 males in eight ethnic groups of East Asia. We found four unique haplotypes constructed from three biallelic markers in these samples of East Asians. The Japanese population was characterized by a relatively high frequency of either the haplotype I-2b (-/Y2/T) or II-1 (+/Y1/C). These dual patterns of the distribution of Y chromosomes (I-2b/II-1) were also found in Korea, although they were present at relatively low frequencies. The haplotype II-1 was present in Northeast Asian populations (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Mongolians) only, except for one male from the Thai population among the Southeast Asian populations (Indonesians, Philippines, Thais, and Vietnamese). The Japanese were revealed to have the highest frequency of this haplotype (27.5%), followed by Koreans (2.9%), Mongolians (2.6%), and mainland Chinese (2.2%). In contrast, the frequency of the haplotype I-2b was found to be 17.1% in the Japanese, 9.5% in Indonesian, 6.3% in Korean, 3.8% in Vietnamese, and 2.7% in Thai samples. These findings suggested that the chromosomes of haplotype I-2b were likely derived from certain areas of Northeast Asia, the region closest to Southeast Asia. Phylogenetic analysis using the neighbor-joining tree also reflected a general distinction between Southeast and Northeast Asian populations. The phylogeny revealed a closer genetic relationship between Japanese and Koreans than to the other surveyed Asian populations. Based on the result of the dual patterns of the haplotype distribution, it is more likely that the population structure of Koreans may not have evolved from a single ancient population derived from Northeast Asians, but through dual infusions of Y chromosomes entering Korea from two different waves of East Asians.

    PMID: 10721667 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    [​IMG]

    Fig. 2 Distribution of Y haplogroups in east Asia. Circle area is proportional to sample size, and the nine haplogroups are represented by different colors

    The distribution of Y-chromosomal variation surveyed here reveals significant genetic differences among east Asian populations. Haplogroup DE-YAP (the YAP+ allele) was present at high frequency only in the Japanese and was rare in other parts of east Asia (Table 2, Fig. 2). This result is consistent with previous findings of YAP+ chromosomes only in populations from Japan and Tibet in east Asia (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Kim et al. 2000; Tajima at al. 2002). However, haplogroup DE-YAP is also found at low frequencies in all the other northeast Asian populations sampled here (2.4% overall, excluding the Japanese; 9.6%, including the Japanese), but only in two of the southern populations (0.8% overall), suggesting that the Korean YAP+ chromosomes are unlikely to have been derived from a southeast Asian source. The prevalence of the YAP+ allele in central Asian populations suggests a genetic contribution to the east Asian populations from the northwest, probably from central Asia (Altheide and Hammer 1997; Jin and Su 2000; Karafet et al. 2001).

    Haplogroups C-RPS4Y711 and K-M9 were widely but not evenly distributed in the east Asian populations. Haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 appears to be the predominant northeast Asian haplogroup, with high frequencies in Mongolians (Buryats, 37.3%; Khalkhs, 42.9%) and Manchurians (22.7%; Table 2, Fig. 2). The moderate frequency of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 Y-chromosomes in Korea (15.0%) implies a genetic influence from northern populations of east Asia, starting possibly in east Siberia. Su and Jin (2001) suggest that the RPS4Y711-T chromosome originated in east Asia, probably in the southeast, and then expanded to the north (Siberia), based on the genetic diversity of Y-STR markers. However, the observed low Y-STR diversity of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 chromosomes in their surveys of Siberian and central Asian populations compared with east Asian populations could also be explained by a more northern (Mongolian and/or Siberian) origin followed by genetic drift resulting from small effective population sizes (Pakendorf et al. 2002). Recently, Cavalli-Sforza and Feldman (2003) have suggested that haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 expanded both through a southern route from Africa (e.g., India) to Oceania, and a northern one to Mongolia, Siberia, and eventually to northwest America. Further genetic surveys are required to test these hypotheses, with additional markers and more samples from diverse regions of Asia.
    In contrast, M9-G Y-chromosomes show an opposing distribution to those carrying RPS4Y711-T in east Asia: they are more frequent in southern populations than in northern ones, showing a clinal variation from about 90% to 60% (Table 1). The haplogroups carrying the M9-G mutation and additional sublineages of M9-G in Korea appear to be at an intermediate frequency (81.9%) between southeast and northeast Asian populations. This result implies that the Korean population may be influenced by both the northeast and southeast Asian populations. Even within haplogroup O, the most frequent Korean STR haplotype (23-10-13 with the markers DYS390-DYS391-DYS393, 19% of haplogroup O; Table 3) is the most frequent in the Philippines (27%), whereas the second most frequent Korean haplotype (24-10-12, 16%) is the most frequent in Manchuria (45%). Thus, the distribution of haplogroups K-M9 and C-RPS4Y711 may reflect dispersals from both north and south. The settlement of each region at different times needs to be considered in order to understand the peopling of east Asia. Recently, Karafet et al. (2001) have noted that realistic explanations for the peopling of east Asia have to accommodate more complex multidirectional biological and cultural influences than earlier models have allowed.
    [​IMG]
    Fig. 3 Principal components (PC) analysis of haplogroup frequencies in 11 east Asian populations (circle Koreans, open diamonds southeast populations, closed diamonds northeast populations)


    In this study, the Koreans appear to be most closely related overall to the Manchurians among east Asian ethnic groups (Fig. 2), although a principal components analysis of haplogroup frequencies reveals that they also cluster with populations from Yunnan and Vietnam (Fig. 3). The genetic relationship with Manchuria is consistent with the historical evidence that the Ancient Chosun, the first state-level society, was established in the region of southern Manchuria and later moved into the Pyongyang area of the northwestern Korean Peninsula. Based on archeological and anthropological data, the early Korean population possibly had a common origin in the northern regions of the Altai Mountains and Lake Baikal of southeastern Siberia (Han 1995; Choi and Rhee 2001). Recent studies of mtDNA (Kivisild et al. 2002) and the Y-chromosome (Karafet et al. 2001) have also indicated that Koreans possess lineages from both the southern and the northern haplogroup complex. In conclusion, the peopling of Korea can be seen as a complex process with an initial northern Asian settlement followed by several migrations, mostly from southern-to-northern China.
     
    #3
  4. Color red

    Color red 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 21, 2006
    224
    3
    The Emerging Limbs and Twigs of the East Asian mtDNA Tree
    Toomas Kivisild*, Helle-Viivi Tolk*, Jüri Parik*, Yiming Wang, Surinder S. Papiha, Hans-Jürgen Bandelt and Richard Villems*

    *Department of Evolutionary Biology, Tartu University and Estonian Biocentre, Estonia;
    Department of Medical Genetics, Sun Yat-Sen University of Medical Sciences, People's Republic of China;
    Department of Human Genetics, University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne;
    Department of Mathematics, University of Hamburg, Germany

    We determine the phylogenetic backbone of the East Asian mtDNA tree by using published complete mtDNA sequences and assessing both coding and control region variation in 69 Han individuals from southern China. This approach assists in the interpretation of published mtDNA data on East Asians based on either control region sequencing or restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) typing. Our results confirm that the East Asian mtDNA pool is locally region-specific and completely covered by the two superhaplogroups M and N. The phylogenetic partitioning based on complete mtDNA sequences corroborates existing RFLP-based classification of Asian mtDNA types and supports the distinction between northern and southern populations. We describe new haplogroups M7, M8, M9, N9, and R9 and demonstrate by way of example that hierarchically subdividing the major branches of the mtDNA tree aids in recognizing the settlement processes of any particular region in appropriate time scale. This is illustrated by the characteristically southern distribution of haplogroup M7 in East Asia, whereas its daughter-groups, M7a and M7b2, specific for Japanese and Korean populations, testify to a presumably (pre-)Jomon contribution to the modern mtDNA pool of Japan.
    [​IMG]
    Fig. 3.—Phylogenetic reconstruction and geographic distribution of haplogroup M7. a, A network of HVS-I haplotypes, which comprises the superposition of the most parsimonious trees for the three postulated sets of M7a, M7b, and M7c sequences. The mutations along the bold links were only analyzed for a few Japanese sequences (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ) and—toward the root of M—for some Chinese sequences (this study): the corresponding individuals with (partial) coding region information are boxed. Numbers along links indicate transitions; recurrent HVS-I mutations are underlined. The age of mtDNA clades is calculated (along the tree indicated by unbroken lines) according to Forster et al. (1996) , with standard errors estimated as in Saillard et al. (2000) . Sample codes (and sources): AI—Ainu (Horai et al. 1996 ); CH—Chinese (Betty et al. 1996 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ; Qian et al. 2001 ; Yao et al. 2002 ; this study); IN—Indonesian (Redd and Stoneking 1999 ); JP—Japanese (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Horai et al. 1996 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ; Seo et al. 1998 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ); KN—Koreans (Horai et al. 1996 ; Lee et al. 1997 ; Pfeiffer et al. 1998 ); MA—Mansi (Derbeneva et al. 2002 ); MJ—Majuro (Sykes et al. 1995 ); MO—Mongolians (Kolman, Sambuughin, and Bermingham 1996 ); PH—Philippines (Sykes et al. 1995 ; Maca-Meyer 2001 ); RY—Ryukyuans (Horai et al. 1996 ); SB—Sabah (Sykes et al. 1995 ); TW—Taiwanese Han (Horai et al. 1996 ) and aboriginals (Melton et al. 1998 ); UI—Uighur (Comas et al. 1998 ; Yao et al. 2000 ); YA—Yakuts (Derenko and Shields 1997 ). b, Frequencies of the subgroups of M7 in Asian populations are inferred from the preceding HVS-I as well as partial HVS-I and RFLP data (VN—Vietnamese: Ballinger et al. 1992 ; Lum et al. 1998 ). Mainland Han Chinese are denoted as follows: GD—Guangdong, LN—Liaoning, QD—Qingdao, WH—Wuhan, XJ—Xinjiang, YU—Yunnan (Yao et al. 2002 ), SH—Shanghai (Nishimaki et al. 1999 ). The number of M7 sequences in relation to the sample size is indicated under each pie slice proportional to the M7 frequency
    [​IMG]
    Fig. 2. Frequency distributions of the eight Y-chromosome haplotypes for the 14 global populations, with their approximate geographic locations. The frequencies of the eight haplotypes are shown as colored pie charts (for color codes, see upper left insert). JP Japanese

    Only four Japanese populations exhibited ht1 (defined only by YAP+) at various frequencies (also see Table 1). The highest frequency (87.5%) was found in JP-Ainu, followed by JP-Okinawa (55.6%) living in the southwestern islands of Japan, JP-Honshu (36.6%), and JP-Kyushu (27.9%). The ht2 haplotype (defined by YAP+/M15+) was found in only two males, one each from Thais and Thai-Khmers; ht3 (defined by YAP+/SRY4064-A) was completely absent in the Asian populations examined, whereas Jewish in the Uzbekistan and African populations had this haplotype with a frequency of 28.3% and 100%, respectively. Thus, the YAP+ lineage was found in restricted populations among Asian populations, consistent with previous reports (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Shinka et al. 1999).

    The ht4 haplotype (defined only by M9-G) was widely distributed among north, east, and southeast Asian populations, except for the Ainu. This haplotype was frequent (60.5%) in overall Asian populations (Table 1). Among them, the Han Chinese and southeast Asian populations were characterized by high frequencies ranging from 81.0% to 96.0%. In contrast to ht4, ht5 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A) and ht6 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A/SRY10831-A) were small contributors to Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht5 was observed in Nivkhi (19.0%) and that of the ht6 in Thai-Khmers (10.8%). The ht5 haplotype is widely distributed among European, Asian, and Native American populations and is proposed to be one of the candidates for founder haplotypes in the Americas (Karafet et al. 1999). Furthermore, high frequencies of ht6 were observed in north Europe, central Asia, and India (Karafet et al. 1999). Thus, the presence of ht5 in Nivkhi may account for the founder effect of peopling of the Americas.

    The ht7 haplotype (defined by RPS4Y-T) was also widely distributed throughout Asia with the exceptions of Malaysia and the Philippines, whereas this was absent in two non-Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht7 was found in Buryats (83.6%), followed by Nivkhi (38.1%). Thus, the geographic distribution of ht7 in Asia appears to contrast with that of ht4.

    Only eight individuals (1.4%) in Asia belonged to ht8, which was the major haplotype in Jewish population (Table 1). The ht8 haplotype may not be useful for inferring population relatedness among Asian populations because it is defined by no mutations. Additional Y-polymorphic markers such as M89 and M168 (Underhill et al. 2000; Ke et al. 2001) will be needed to investigate details of the formation of modern Asian populations.
    [​IMG]
     
    #4
  5. ricecake

    ricecake 先輩
    先輩

    Jun 13, 2006
    981
    12
    Some Japanese anthopologists accepted SE Asia as one source of Japanese origins,they located one tattoo'ed tribe in Burma whom Japanese claimed relate to their ancestors.

    Korea's Hwashan Lee clan's progenitor was a Vietnamese refugee escaped to Korea peninsula in the 12th century.His Korean descendants made an emotional journey to ancestral homeland Vietnam reported in S Korea's Dong An Newspaper a few years ago.
     
    #5
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2006
  6. Color red

    Color red 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 21, 2006
    224
    3
    http://www.pitt.edu/~annj/courses/notes/jomon_genes.html
    Jomon Genes

    Using DNA, researchers probe the genetic origins of modern Japanese
    By JOHN TRAVIS

    From that evidence, Hammer and Horai hypothesized that the YAP element was originally carried to Japan by the Jomon and that the Yayoi, who came from the region that now makes up North and South Korea, lacked the marker. More recent research has strengthened this theory.

    Working with several colleagues, the two researchers mapped the distribution of YAP-positive chromosomes throughout Japan. While men living in central Japan rarely carry YAP. the Ainu and inhabitants of the southern islands, the two populations apparently least influenced by the Yayoi, frequently do.

    Hammer and his colleagues are also studying a second Y chromosome marker that may serve as a sign of the Yayoi migration. This marker is common in Koreans and appears most frequently in the central islands of Japan, says Hammer.

    Together, contends Hammer. the two markers tell a story of an initial Yayoi migration into central Japan and a subsequent spread of the people toward the north and south. Since both Y chromosome markers are still found in varying degrees throughout Japan, it appears that the genes of the Jomon and Yayoi peoples did intermingle significantly.

    "Our data support the hybridization theory," says Hammer.

    The research on YAP has also addressed another controversial question: Where did the Jomon come from? Some researchers have long held the idea that the Jomon originated in southeast Asia and spread to Japan about 12,000 years ago. Analyses of dental remains, shared aspects of language, and even some genetic studies have offered support for this scenario.

    Several years ago, Nei offered an alternative. Working from his own analysis of more than a dozen genetic markers on a variety of chromosomes and from archaeological data showing habitation of Japan dating back 30,000 years, Nei argued that the Jomon actually came from northeastern Asia and settled in Japan far earlier than supporters of the Southeast Asia theory had proposed.

    While the YAP data do not appear to support the transformation theory favored by Nei, they may bolster Nei's vision of the Jomon's origin, says Hammer. He and his colleagues surveyed more than 1,000 men from 20 populations in Southeast Asia. "We didn't find a single example of a YAP-positive chromosome", says Hammer.

    In contrast, a survey of 700 men from 13 northern Asian populations did reveal areas with YAP-positive chromosomes.

    About 3 percent of men from southwestern Siberia and Mongolia have the marker. The most spectacular finding was that more than 50 percent of men from Tibet harbor the YAP element.

    While Tibet is part of central Asia, Nei suggests that the YAP data support his theory that the Jomon originated in the northeast. Other researchers have concluded that the Tibetans arrived in their current homeland only several thousand years ago, after a migration from northeast Asia, Nei points out.

    The new Y chromosome research by Harnmer and Horai is unlikely to settle the century-old debate about the origin of the Jomon and their genetic contribution to modern Japanese, caution researchers following the issue.

    "You may get a different story when you look at the Y chromosome than when you look at mitochondrial DNA or when you look at other nuclear genes," warns Brace, who adds that any genetic data must also be reconciled with traditional archaeological evidence. "They all have to mesh to tell a complete story."

    Courtesy of National Science Museum at Ueno/Shinjuku

    [​IMG]

    Mainstream hypothesis of migrations into the Japanese islands from Sibelia and Korea. Red=Jomon/Ainu (native islanders), Yellow=Yayoi (korean/chinese)

    [​IMG]

    Predicted distribution of Ainu/Jomon Japanese. The red stands for the Ainu ethnicity in modern japanese in molecular levels, and the yellow indicates the yayoi japanese.
     
    #6
  7. ricecake

    ricecake 先輩
    先輩

    Jun 13, 2006
    981
    12
    #7
  8. jeisan

    jeisan Kongming
    先輩

    Feb 24, 2003
    3,415
    65
    color red, whats the point of posting all of this stuff if you dont even reply to the people who are trying to have a conversation on this subject?

    this forum is for discussion, not web storage. with all these repeated posts and no real replies i tend to think more of spam than intellectual dialogue
     
    #8
  9. Color red

    Color red 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 21, 2006
    224
    3
    I beg to differ. The replies I had were not concerned about genetics which are the original topic on the table. I also did not get a reply to my original post in that there were no visible evidences of relevant agendas in the replies.

    Perhaps, you are right with respect to the courtesy of other's ideas, but so far, I would like to see a lead for me to discuss the historical matters whose sources are wikipedia and personal exposition of japanese and korean origins. I wanted this thread to provide an intellectual source that can provide a good mixture of academic and reliable sources, that's pretty much reason why I didn't reply yet.
     
    #9
  10. ricecake

    ricecake 先輩
    先輩

    Jun 13, 2006
    981
    12
    Intermixings occured through out human history,no DNA reports will ever be conclusive.

    It's total fallacy to OP's post#1 baselessly grouped Han Chinese with Vietnamese or Cambodians,indigenous peoples in those 2 places are of Austronesian-stock NOT Mongoloid.Japanese claimed Polynesia ( Austronesia ) as one source of their origins,why OP declined to accept it.

    Hence,Han Chinese is now a generic race has countless Mongoloid ethnic origins.It's family to family or region to region,what one's Y-chromozone composition is.

    Both Japanese and Koreans have MULTIPLE-origins.
     
    #10
  11. Color red

    Color red 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 21, 2006
    224
    3
    Please first tell me who is the "Some Japanese anthoropologists". I know the wikipedia source of this idea but please cite the sources in your own responsibility. Then, we can discuss this matter.
    Second idea of Hwashan Lee clan's origin is well known, but I don't see any references that point whether they are now majority of modern korean, or otherwise. Anyway, if you can prove that it's actually the case, it will be a good topic that we can talk about. As far as I am concerned, I am ready to take any new views on this matter.

    ricecake, please read my first post again. I merely cited the idea for references.
     
    #11
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2006
  12. ricecake

    ricecake 先輩
    先輩

    Jun 13, 2006
    981
    12
    The funny thing is,NO Japanese nationals take interest in other nationalities' discuss on their " origins " or who they might be genetically related to except Vietnamese and Koreans.WHY such unhealthy obsession,go figure.

    I rarely read participation of Japanese forumers in those threads concerning their genetics.

    All Asian nationalities are related more or less,there isn't any to read on ficititious DNA reports littered by trolls in internet forums.

    Very few of us ordinary folk can comprehend the readings of any inconclusive so-called DNA study reports whatever,or care to read one.
     
    #12
  13. pharaoh21

    pharaoh21 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 12, 2006
    22
    0
    So in summary, the origin of Japanese is northeast Asia?
     
    #13
  14. Color red

    Color red 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 21, 2006
    224
    3
    Please note that Y-chromosome is not read Y-chromozone. Anyway, everyone makes mistake, don't mind about the minor typo.

    One thing I would like you to request for you is to be more cooperative on making me understand what your point is, and how you support the details by evidences.

    For example, your last post seems rather difficult for me to respond.

    (1) in your first assertion, there is no support by evidences.

    (2) Sorry, I don't get what you exactly mean.

    (3) This I agree with, but what does this relate to your points before. I am clueless.
     
    #14
  15. pharaoh21

    pharaoh21 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 12, 2006
    22
    0
    There're no pure Han Chinese nowadays because Chinese are all mixed already. I think only the majority of northern Chinese has Mogoloid ethnic origins but not really southern Chinese. I think their origin is more likely southeast Asia.
     
    #15
  16. Color red

    Color red 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 21, 2006
    224
    3
    Well, please refer to the charts above. I only cited simple charts making use of Y-chromosome/mtDNA studies. These are accessible to anyone who cares to read some legends, and makes an intelligent guess. In short, you don't need any professional expertise to understand these charts.

    To your very direct question, I can tell you that there are several hypotheses concerning the origin of japanese people. One is through south east asia, and another through sibelia/sakhalin, or through north east asia/manchuria/korea. Scientific evidences suggest that in fact all are correct answers, but the real tough question is who are the modern japanese out of these migrants into japanese archipelago? This is the point where you will need to exercise your brains to find your own answers from the charts.
     
    #16
  17. pharaoh21

    pharaoh21 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 12, 2006
    22
    0
    Don't have time, I have to go soon.
     
    #17
  18. Color red

    Color red 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 21, 2006
    224
    3
    well, that's a pity.
     
    #18
  19. ricecake

    ricecake 先輩
    先輩

    Jun 13, 2006
    981
    12

    China has many ethnicities,southern Chinese also include those aborigine minorities populated in China's SW region probably closely related to SE Asian indigenous peoples.
     
    #19
  20. pharaoh21

    pharaoh21 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 12, 2006
    22
    0
    Then it's southeast Asia.
     
    #20
  21. ricecake

    ricecake 先輩
    先輩

    Jun 13, 2006
    981
    12
    Those are Chinese aboriginal minorities like Dai,Zhuang,Yao,Mien,Bai plus many others populate in China's SW region.

    China has some Mongol and Manchu townships in China's NE region,they're closely related to Koreans and Japanese.

    Northern Han Chinese are mainly Sinicized Altaic people,closely related to Mongols,Manchus,Japanese and Koreans.
     
    #21
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2006
  22. pharaoh21

    pharaoh21 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 12, 2006
    22
    0
    What r u trying to say? :eek:kashii:
     
    #22
  23. Mycernius

    Mycernius The Hairy Wookie
    先輩 Donor

    Feb 4, 2005
    4,510
    186
    Keep this thread nice. If you start on each other rather than the points in question this thread will be locked.
     
    #23
  24. Color red

    Color red 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 21, 2006
    224
    3
    This is really my opinion, and you may well likely disagree.
    I think it's about time to let the politics loose on the genetic science. Insecurity displayed in asian forums really seems the problem stemming from the rough treatment of history education. Some people is incapable of reading and writing the competent language, and could only respond like it's a physical reflex, like somebody teaching them how to respond.

    I can observe the lack of critical thinking in the people who asserts the absolute principles without getting backed by scientific evidences. What does people get from these empty notes without friendliness, and mutual respect?
    In internet forums, I would like to see:

    (1) Critical thinking
    (2) Good scientific attitude to share the knowledge
    (3) Honesty to accept the viable proposition

    Just saying your belief is easy option, but I hold that this is not going good for the life of these people who just goes on without much thoughts.
     
    #24
  25. pharaoh21

    pharaoh21 先輩
    先輩

    Oct 12, 2006
    22
    0
    The point is no one really cares and be bothered to post long and confusing scientific articles to prove one's origin. Of course, no one can be bothered to read them and take them seriously.
     
    #25
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page