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Why not whale/dolphin watching instead??

Discussion in 'Japanese News & Hot Topics' started by Chi65, Jan 15, 2008.

  1. Chi65

    Chi65 Banned

    Nov 14, 2007
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    #1
  2. butakun

    butakun 先輩
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    Dec 9, 2004
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    In fact it works well in Japan too.
     
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  3. Kyoto Returnee

    Dec 18, 2007
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    I totally agree, but isn't Japan killing them for "scientific" purposes!
     
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  4. Chi65

    Chi65 Banned

    Nov 14, 2007
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    Thats the point. . .
    If some would think twice and just change their income scources, they would not lose anything in the end, in contrary. They would even have international friendly support.

    Do you know some places, butakun?
     
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  5. butakun

    butakun 先輩
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    Dec 9, 2004
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    To each its own, I'd say. I absolutely adore pigs, seriously, hence my name butakun, (I spent 11 years in Iowa where there are more pigs than humans) but I like pork meat as well. I would go visit pig farms and hug them cute things. They hate me do that, they panic when their legs are all off the ground, haha. Enough of pig talk, call me a pig anytime and that's almost a compliment to me. <thread jack end>
     
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  6. kame

    kame 先輩
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    Dec 26, 2007
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    People adore and eat the same animal all the time. (Butakun probably gets my point)

    Australians use kangaroos as a huge tourist attraction and are adored by kids all over the world, and I am sure many, if not most, Australian like them. Yet they are killed in millions each year and eaten. Kids go to petting zoos in country fair to pet pigs, cows, and sheeps and eat hotdogs few hours later.

    There are whale watching tours in Japan and whale sashimis are served in restaurants. People with different values can and do coexist. There is nothing wrong with that.

    Might I add, my old boss took her family to a vacation in Australia, where she and her kids hunted a couple of kangaroos (seemed like they had fun from the pictures). They let tourists hunt kangaroos. Fortunately, there is no whale hunting tours for the tourists.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 16, 2008
  7. Chi65

    Chi65 Banned

    Nov 14, 2007
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    May I remind you on the name of the thread, please?
    Kangoroos etc. are not meant here.

    If the kind of extreme dolphin-slaughtering in Taiji etc. is an offence to many around the world, also because of intense commerce and misuse, plus the behaviour in terms of using other's territory for excessive "scientific" slaughtering (couldn't the australians then do it in/on their own there?), then it might be not a bad idea, to change something towards more peacefull use. Thats all I am saying here.

    If its money and food they need, that can doubtlessly come any other way too. Taiji for instance is in no way a far distant village, and not out of any support nor even tourist zone, in contrary.

    Sorry, butakun, I simply wanted to ask you for some such well working places, if you know some, since you wrote, that it works well in Japan too. OK, I can try to google some, but may run into trouble, because my Japanese is not well enough.
     
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  8. Sarapva

    Sarapva Midnight and Snowflake
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    Feb 25, 2007
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    Yes! Those are my thoughts exactly. If Japan switched all its whale hunting activities to whale watching ones, it would win the heart of the world!!
     
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  9. Chi65

    Chi65 Banned

    Nov 14, 2007
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    Definitely, and I would seriously like to see them to be loved, not just the whales etc.. . .
     
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  10. kame

    kame 先輩
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    Dec 26, 2007
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    I believe it's totally legitimate and helpful to view whaling in a larger perspective, that is how animals are regarded and treated in general. Otherwise, arguments will become too subjective. I'm sorry if you can't see that, but I will continue to compare whaling with how other animals are used when necessary.
     
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  11. kame

    kame 先輩
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    Dec 26, 2007
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    My serious question is, why can't whale hunters and whale watchers coexist?

    Kangaroo hunters killing millions and kangaroo lovers (although they may not love each other) manage to coexist in Australia. Hindis and beef-eating Americans get along fine. Dog eating habit in Korea has survived although many Koreans love dogs as their partners.
     
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  12. butakun

    butakun 先輩
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    Dec 9, 2004
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    I didn't see your post as I was writing. I guess we posted around the same time. Well I can't post any link due to my post count, but whale watching is a growing industry in Japan as well. Try using these keywords in google, I get a lot of hits on places that organize such tours. I'm thinking of planning a trip to some islands in Ogasawara myself in the near future.
    ニ築ニ竪ツーニ停?ケニ脱ニ辿ニ鍛ニ蛋ニ停?愴丹
    ニ辰ニ停?ケニ谷ニ脱ニ辿ニ鍛ニ蛋ニ停?愴丹
    They both simply say "whale watching" and "dolphin watching"
     
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  13. Chi65

    Chi65 Banned

    Nov 14, 2007
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    Ok, thanks!
    I will check in time, thats interesting, butakun.

    (and I liked your pig example and think, you are a fair and honest person. I like pigs myself, yet eat some of their meat now and then, but have my respect, and that may make some difference after all. If not, I see myself as guilty as anyone else, who does)

    In general for some:
    As I stated on several other related threads already, I am not a vegetarian, although I like their food and eat only little meat, but consciously, and am very well aware, that in general its not just a whaler-issue, how animals are treated.
    And if it does not go into the exteme and just for cold commercial reasons and is done with a certain respect (see some words about native indians and former siberian tribes etc. on other places, plus my own uncle as forestier and hunter), I would not say anything about or against it. This should be clear by now. If some still do not wish to remember, it cannot be helped. Its their problem then.

    I wish I could be more engaged into some animal and human right's places, but I am only one woman with only one life and its additional problems for artists and/or lone mothers etc. in a far from perfect own state or Germany.

    Also pure vegetarians have their problems with limits, since some say in general, that any creation(which would also include plants then, esp. since the borderline between plants and animals is also floating. . .) should be saved, which would mean in consequence, that we humans have to kill ourself via starvings in the end effect. There is no real end to the story thus.

    But we can handle with respect and thanks, what we get. And I still believe so.
    otherwise this planet may shake us off with the same ruthlessness, that we use in handling it.
    And at least pay some of this "taking" back via giving, and we should not let it go into the extreme.

    Thus I am also against killing Kangoroos just for fun, or paying for hitting wolves for example (I happpen to be a wolf-lover too and as such interested in something like the white wolf sanctuary/Oregon and other places of the planet etc.), or certain hunts for fun, that have been forbidden in Germany by now (glad, so glad about it!).

    Thus, if there is only little demand for certain food, be it whales, or if it can easily be replaced by something else, then I see no reason for such barbaric mass slaughterings, as happens there. Especially in such a deeply respectless way. Would it be for the local people, if they really may not have anything else, and with respect and care, I would not say much, nor would their own elders or already dead wise ancesters. This is their real culture, and they are ignoring it plus the inherited warnings(bad luck etc., very wise ones indeed)). I could as well be an according spirit, reminder of themselves in this context. This of course opposes the money chasers, -addicts, who are definitely and provable (already done) behind. I would say the very same everywhere in the world, also about killings for money of some wolves, also to serve some outlets for general aggressions and "killing instincts" etc., also certain Kangoroos, don't you worry, but thats once more not the theme here), however much some wish to change the theme or ignore my former words or play word twisters.
    Just think a bit and try to remember.

    Any killing falls back onto the killer, particularly if done out of balance and coldheartedly, and therefore native tribes usually made thank you ceremonies and kept that died spirit in high respect and memories. This could have been the case in Taiji too for example, but surely is forgotten, blinded by money.
    Yet it still works in the very same way. Nature will hit back for sure, when violated by humans. And we are humans that have to learn again to relate with respect and very well, feelings for humans as well as animals and plants etc.
    That has nothing to do with me personally, I am just trying to remember and then remind.

    We have for example all seen the videos about the dolphin massacre, if not, go to that dolphin page and have a look. It screems out for calling nature to hit back, sorry to say.
    If no one has any feelings there, then you are already dead, or eaten by money.

    And sure, I am again also with everyone who is against killing for fun or extreme ruthless manipulating commerce. I do not support "coexistence" in this. We had the strange coexistence during Hitler, those nice family fathers, whose jobs was to kill the jewish, often on the very same days, without their wives even knowing about it! This is absolutely no theme for me thus. . .I know the line in humans to be very thin.

    And this is the Japan forum after all, right?
     
    #13
    Mars Man likes this.
  14. Kyoto Returnee

    Dec 18, 2007
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    Great call Chi.

    Some things that always disturbed me was the cruel mutilation of dogs in China including skinning them alive, the removal of Vial from bears in China having it drained my way of a permant tube in their gall bladder whilst they are in cages not much bigger than them, fox hunting, bull fighting and I'm sure I missed a few..

    I cannot stomach how cruel humanity is sometimes and it really is hard to belive that people do not care..

    My wife and I were in Northern Thaniland driving.. Somebody had hit a stray dog and it was in the middle of the road belching in pain..

    I went back to assist, and along came another car to finish it off.. Some onlookers were laughing and smiling..

    My wife cried pretty much for the rest of the day..

    The Dolphin slaughter video takes the cake!
     
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  15. Chi65

    Chi65 Banned

    Nov 14, 2007
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    And then those that care are called narrowminded or terrrorists (although I do not accept killings in reverse).
    Thats to me, as if some were also fighting for the rights of killing jews or whomsoever without respect after all.
    We already had that extreme here, and I suffered deeply about this when young and also when older, thus. . .

    Yes, the story is not over, all over the world.

    If we can't feel this anymore, we can as well say goodbye to this planet as well, or better, it will say goodbye to us.
     
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  16. kame

    kame 先輩
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    Dec 26, 2007
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    Chi65,

    I don't necessarily disagree with the sentimental and emotional take on how animals as food be treated with respect, and many Japanese do have traditional value of respecting our food source including whales. Unfortunately, many people in the developed nations with abundance in food (including Japan) are not as much aware of such values as we used to be.

    But again, where you draw the line between needless and cruel killing of animals and culturally and morally accepted sacrifice of animals for consumption is a relative and subjective issue. The line can and do change over time and among cultures, and
    Japanese may eventually give up whaling completely. But that is not for certain governments and activists to decide. I believe killing 3 million wild kangaroos in a hardly regulated and in a leisurely fashion is excessive if not an outright massacre, but I as well as most Japanese, think it's for the Australians to decide.

    What you don't have is the respect for other cultures that currently draw the line where you don't see it. Looking at commercial whaling in a scientifically managed and controlled manner as fundamentally wrong is your subjective value (which you are entitled to) but you do not realize it and argue as if it is the absolute truth (which doesn't exist).

    The most respectable way to reconcile a moral/cultural dispute (whale watchers vs whale hunters) is not to get rid of one another, but to seek a way (compromise) to coexist. Whale hunters are not demanding to stop admiring whales nor to endanger them as species, but the anti-whalers entirely deny the existence of whale hunters.
     
    #16
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  17. Sarapva

    Sarapva Midnight and Snowflake
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    Feb 25, 2007
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    I'm not sure this is true. This phrase might apply here: the person (in this case the whalers) is not disliked or denied existence, but the behavior is.

    I agree with Kyoto Returnee and Chi here - sometimes the thought of how we humans treat other living animals and people is horrifying, and I can't come to terms with it.
     
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  18. Chi65

    Chi65 Banned

    Nov 14, 2007
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    Sorry, but I do not respect things I described well enough, no matter if others find it acceptable or not. For example cruelty and lies and fake labels will never have my respect. (Same for some pro whalers, who so often lie or ignore, what has already been said, and become rude and unfair on personal levels, that I wonder about their general habits of dealing with things, plus their blindness in realising, that this only drives people away or themselves out. It was quite an experience here so far)
    This has nothing to do with countries, but just parts of it, in fact, for these things I would have as little respect within my own country or elsewhere.

    I also explained clearly, what I thought in this sense about "scientific" whalings. . .if it would be caring without killing and not just mainly a false label, which is far too obvious, it would be no issue for me. And I am not the only one thinking this way, and glad to know now.

    I do realise very well, actually, and have also described changes often enough, maybe you have not read those parts or ignored them.
    But any absolute truth of the right for killing is not my truth either, and I am not ashamed about saying it. If there is a better way, it should be considered, I hold my voice in this and am glad, I am not the only one.

    On the other hand I am (if so) surely amongst the last ones of those, who are not very well aware of the different and changing truths, but I will stay warned by what happened hereabout in my own country in a not so distant past. And I draw my line there and will always do so, yes. Its useless try to brainwash me or twist my words in this.
    BTW, I am known for being a very good canon-singer and can very well hold my voice, no matter what, like an eye in the storm. :)
     
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    Last edited: Jan 17, 2008
  19. Chi65

    Chi65 Banned

    Nov 14, 2007
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    Well said indeed, thanks:wave:
     
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  20. Rose Selavey

    Rose Selavey 先輩
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    Dec 11, 2007
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    Commercial whaling is not at this time sustainable, we as humans even though the research being conducted is massive are yet to understand the oceans sufficiently to provide a comprehensive quota guide of the amount of seafood to take. The demand on the oceans is only becoming greater and in the next few years fish stocks will become a big issue. Japan consumes the most seafood per capita in the world (up to 3 times more than other seafood consuming nations), so obviously Japan will have the largest adjustment to make when these seafood stocks are reduced.

    So what are the options? What will Japan do when African nations or Pacific nations increase their whale hunting would they allow it?
     
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  21. Chi65

    Chi65 Banned

    Nov 14, 2007
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    As long as they support Japan's claims and domination wishes, they may up to a certain point.

    If they have not yet all poisoned themselves. . .

    Therefore my first question in this thread, because it is not toxic. . .
     
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  22. centrajapan

    centrajapan 先輩
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    Sep 16, 2007
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    i think i have written all there is to write about whaling and some of the other posters have written equally as much about how terrible this whaling is. it is safe to say that we dont agree.:relief:

    japan will continue its annual scientific reseacrh because that is the only way japan can hunt whales. iwc members will vote against japan resuming a commercial hunt despite the minke whale being very numerous and no where near extinction. australia will tell japan to stop going to antarctica. japan will say in return it is international waters and every country has a right to go to antarctica. australia will say there is a whale sanctuary. japan will say the sanctuary does not apply to research. australia will then say. the scientific reseacrh is commercial hunt in disguise. japan will say. it is not commercial hunt in disguise. it is to calculate how many whales japan can harvest that there is a scientific research program and once japan finds out how many whales japan can harvest other countries vote in favour of a resumption in commercial hunt. besides other iwc members who are in iwc are obliged to follow the objective of the convention. namely to work towards harvesting whales without depleting the stocks. and on and on and on and on.

    norway hunts whales too btw. so i am double pro whaler. i look at whales as floating cows in the ocean which eat all the fish. making weird sounds they are just animals.

    from a buddhist perspective. it is better to kill 1 big animal than many small animals. and from an ecological perspective it is better to kill animals from the natural habitat than from agricultural land.

    whaling is far more environmental friendly than cattle farming because the natural habitat remains unaffected and you dont use any energy raising a whale like you do with cows.

    i am not a vegeterian. i do believe that a diet consisting of meat, fish, vegetables, rice, beans. a varied diet is healthier than a vegeterian diet. hunting 1000 whales from a population of 1,000,000 is no threat to the overall population.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 29, 2008
  23. centrajapan

    centrajapan 先輩
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    Sep 16, 2007
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    whale safari is ok. its not very enrvionmental friendly. i think people can do both. some can eat whales others can go on a a whale safari. i want to introduce the whale hunting safari. i think that will be a hit. tourists hop on a whaling vessels and try the harpoon out. that sounds more fun to me than just wathcing the whales. seeing the harpoon going through the skull then you hear an explosion. a deep base sound and you pull the fatbatsard up from the ocean. its all into one. the whole whale experience. from watching these magnificent animals to killing them and eating them.
     
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  24. Chi65

    Chi65 Banned

    Nov 14, 2007
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    I see no reason to support perverted killing instincts, esp. not the sadistic way its described here.
    And I additionally see no reason to support any whaling, as long as the meat is so contaminated, and it will hardly become less in our times. Some obviously already show clear signs of mercury deseases. . .its beyond any responsibility to distribute it further, and especially not to schoolchildren, as happened and probably still is.
    Wakayama took the equally poisoned dolphin meat out of schools and distributions already last year, because of this!
    Its a timebomb, that surely will explode soon enough, particularly since the informations about the contents of the meat and according dangerous results are freely available.
    Japanese people are severely harming themselves, if they keep on sleeping.
    I happen to have friends also in Wakayama and other places, with young children, thus I am deeply worried. I want them to be healthy and alive!

    And killing for perverted fun, and esp. what does not hurt or attack even, sorry, thats far beyond my and other's acceptance and clearly belongs to a psychiatrist or the like.

    Giving it back via whale watchings like the older whaler in the Whale Love Wagon video, shows a grown up personality and that its never too late.
     
    #24
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2008
  25. kai_khk23

    kai_khk23 New Member

    Nov 25, 2007
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    I agree, watching is better than killing..
     
    #25

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