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As I wrote "the verbs that can be used with this で are limited" in my previous post, both までに and で can be used for 終わる, which expresses "something terminates", but で can't be used for 作る since this verb doesn't have this meaning, so you can't use 今夜十時でレポートを作ろう instead of までに.I thought that was the function of で
十時で終わります connotes that it's over at 10 how much the concert will excited. Thus, those two expressions are basically the same, but the nuance are a bit different.このコンサートは十時で終わります。
This concert will be over at 10 o'clock.
In DBJG, they provide the example above.
So if I wrote:
このコンサートは十時までに終わります。
This concert will be over by 10 o'clock.
Is that accurate?
With specific verbs, yes.So whenever で is used with time, it means the finishing time, correct? If that's the case, it's simple and I understand.
Since を can mean a starting point when you're talking about movement verbs: a particle that marks the location from which some movement begins.
Isn't that the same thing as から?
A particle which indicates a starting point or a source.
Is it me or do they refer to the exact same thing?
Just to illustrate with some examples:
を
汽車がトンネルを出た。
A train came out of the tunnel.
から
このバスはニューヨークからきた。
This bus came from New York.
Could you say for example:
汽車がトンネルから出た
このバスはニューヨークをきた。
That definition of を is applied not to all verbs, but to the ones that have a nuance of "leaving a place" among intransitive verbs for transfer, as I already pointed out. The basic idea of 来る is "to come close to the speaker or the place they are referring to". Thus, this verb doesn't have a nuance of "leaving a place", so を can't be used to indicate the starting point for 来る. から indicates the starting point for almost all verbs, so 汽車がトンネルから出た is correct, of course.Some more examples (sorry for spamming but I'm studying this at the moment:
1. わたしは朝日七時半にうちを出る。
The movement begins from the house.
2. バスを降りた時友達に会った。
I met a friend when I got off the bus.
The movement begins from the bus (降りた).
3. 日本を離れて外国で暮らしている。
He left Japan and is living abroad.
The movement begins from Japan (離れて).
Now let's compare with から.
4. このバスはニューヨークから来た。
This bus came from New York.
The movement begins from New York.
According to my dictionary, I could substitute を for から in 1, 2 & 3.
The book explains the difference the two as:
を: indicates the location where some movement begins.
から: marks the initial location in movement from one location to another.
...
This means that when the old location and the new location is mentioned, we should use から. Otherwise, they're interchangeable. I think that's it!!
前 is a period "from sometime in the past to the referring time", as same as 十時まで, so 前に means "by/before that time" as a result.I wanted to go back to に and で when it comes to time.
に: A particle which indicates a point in time at which something takes place.
わたしは毎朝六時半に起きる。
I get up at six thirty every morning.
In the description of に, it says that に can be used for time when the moment can be translated as digits. In other words, the days of the week can be used with に because they're the first, second, third... days of the week. Today, on the other hand, can't be used with に because it can't be translated by digits (without context).
Yet, we say 前に. This is strange because 前 doesn't refer to a point in time which can be translated with digits. Why is that?
三年になる means "three years has passed". で is used there not to indicate "an amount of time an activity has taken", but to indicate the finishing time "today".で: indicates the time when s.t. terminates or the amount of time a period of activity has taken.
Ex.:
① このコンサートは十時で終わります。
Technically, 10 o'clock is a point in time (see に above). However, since there's something finishing at that time, we use で.
② わたしのパスポートは六月できれる。
Same thing as above. The passport expires (finishes) in June.
③ アメリカに来てから今日で三年になる。
This one is an amount of time an activity has taken. Strangely enough, the period of time is 三年 and yet the で is after 今日 instead of after
三年. I wonder why. After reading the book, it turns out that で comes after up to X. So in other words, in ③, it's three years up to today, which is why で goes there.
Ahhhh ok! Right!Thus, this verb doesn't have a nuance of "leaving a place", so を can't be used to indicate the starting point for 来る.
So what you're saying is that I need to instinctively identify the verb first to give me some sense of orientation when it comes to which particle I should pick as certain verbs are more likely to use certain particles.In conclusion, you need to be more careful with the verbs that can be applied to the definitions.
The only one point you need to take care with is when the "time" has a relatively long length. For instance, 十時に終わる is valid, but 今日に終わる is invalid since "today" is a long time.