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Comfort Women

Dear leonmarino
As origami is so unsensitive towards womon who have been abused, you obviously assume that origami must be a male. However, origami, who have only posted viewpoints regaring this thread, claims to be female. I think that origami is not what he claims to be. I think you are trying to argue whith one of the extreme right-wingers who enjoys making everyone upset by posting inflamatory propoganda in this discussion forum. I would not be surprised if origami is actually a person who was allready banned from this site. Though I like most other are provoked by people like origami, I suggest that a discussion with such people are actually giving them more credit than they deserve.
Oops!! I didn't see that Origami is female indeed.. Sumimasen!! 😌
Thanks for your concern though Han Chan. It's just that I like a good/controversial discussion, and I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt.. For as long as that lasts of course.
 
PS: I find the facts about the US "amusement house" in Japan and the UN's request for similar services in South Korea very interesting.
In Japan GHQ ordered to build "amusement house" for GIs.
many rapes were occurred by US soldiers under occupation.
"amusement" was necessary to protect Japanese women.
add ---
Japanese women worked there for other Japanese women.
-------
I don't know why most of you ignore this fact.
I don't know Origami. But I'm sure that Origami is a woman. Because I'm a woman, too. though you never understand the reason that we are here...
 
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I feel kinda bad after reading some of the posts that were made in this thread.

I just don't get the point of playing down evidenced atrocities. Is our collective progress since these terrible times really that little?

In my country and in Germany, there are quite a lot of people who tend to look away when it comes to historical facts about WWII. Old people whose brains are still infected with Nazi-propaganda (I've met a lot of them recently) pass down their way of thinking to younger generations, who still think their grandfathers who served in the SS were heroes.

Twisted world...
 
Obeika,
Introducing reports and books is useless.
When I say "hard evidence", it means firsthand material, not reports, nor books.
"United Nations Report" is only a report based on a collection of unreliable information. You say "the figure 200,000 appears in appendix", and I must say "So what?"
200,000 women ..... wow! I wonder how many soldiers were there (lol).
As to the book "A Public Betrayed", I would like to return these words to the authors.

In that case since I provided you with this and you refused it out of hand I will now ask you origami,

Show me hard evidence that it didn't happen
 
Obeika,

I have been waiting for you to say these words -- "show me hard evidence that it didn't happen"

Probatio diabolica
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Probatio diabolica (Latin: "devil's proof") is a legal requirement to achieve an impossible proof. Where a legal system would appear to require an impossible proof, the remedies are reversing the burden of proof, or giving additional rights to the individual facing the probatio diabolica.
 
To ecampbell07

I am not yet allowed to post URLs here, so I'll quote --

---(quote)

Report No. 49: Japanese POW Interrogation on Prostitution.

UNITED STATES
OFFICE OF WAR INFORMATION

Psychological Warfare Team
Attached to
U.S. Army Forces
India-Burma Theater
APO 689
Japanese Prisoner
of War Interrogation
Report No. 49. Place interrogated: Ledo Stockade
Date Interrogated: Aug. 20 - Sept. 10, 1944
Date of Report: October 1, 1944
By: T/3 Alex Yorichi
Prisoners: 20 Korean Comfort Girls
Date of Capture: August 10, 1944
Date of Arrival: August 15, 1994
at Stockade


PREFACE

This report is based on the information obtained from the interrogation of twenty Korean "comfort girls" and two Japanese civilians captured around the tenth of August, 1944 in the mopping up operations after the fall of Myitkyin a in Burma.
The report shows how the Japanese recruited these Korean "comfort girls", the conditions under which they lived and worked, their relations with and reaction to the Japanese soldier, and their understanding of the military situation.


A "comfort girl" is nothing more than a prostitute or "professional camp follower" attached to the Japanese Army for the benefit of the soldiers.

The word "comfort girl" is peculiar to the Japanese. Other reports show the "comfort girls" have been found wherever it was necessary for the Japanese Army to fight. This report however deals only with the Korean "comfort girls" recruited by the Japanese and attached to their Army in Burma. The Japanese are reported to have shipped some 703 of these girls to Burma in 1942.


RECRUITING;

Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for "comfort service" in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia. The nature of this "service" was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with visiting the wounded in hospitals, rolling bandages, and generally making the soldiers happy. The inducement used by these agents was plenty of money, an opportunity to pay off the family debts, easy work, and the prospect of a new life in a new land, Singapore. On the basis of these false representations many girls enlisted for overseas duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen.

The majority of the girls were ignorant and uneducated, although a few had been connected with "oldest profession on earth" before. The contract they signed bound them to Army regulations and to war for the "house master " for a period of from six months to a year depending on the family debt for which they were advanced ...

Approximately 800 of these girls were recruited in this manner and they landed with their Japanese "house master " at Rangoon around August 20th, 1942. They came in groups of from eight to twenty-two. From here they were distributed to various parts of Burma, usually to fair sized towns near Japanese Army camps.
Eventually four of these units reached the Myitkyina. They were, Kyoei, Kinsui, Bakushinro, and Momoya. The Kyoei house was called the "Maruyama Club", but was changed when the girls reached Myitkyina as Col.Maruyama, commander of the garrison at Myitkyina, objected to the similarity to his name.



PERSONALITY;

The interrogations show the average Korean "comfort girl" to be about twenty-five years old, uneducated, childish, and selfish. She is not pretty either by Japanese of Caucasian standards. She is inclined to be egotistical and likes to talk about herself. Her attitude in front of strangers is quiet and demure, but she "knows the wiles of a woman." She claims to dislike her "profession" and would rather not talk either about it or her family. Because of the kind treatment she received as a prisoner from American soldiers at Myitkyina and Ledo, she feels that they are more emotional than Japanese soldiers. She is afraid of Chinese and Indian troops.



LIVING AND WORKING CONDITIONS;

In Myitkyina the girls were usually quartered in a large two story house (usually a school building) with a separate room for each girl. There each girl lived, slept, and transacted business. In Myitkina their food was prepared by and purchased from the "house master" as they received no regular ration from the Japanese Army. They lived in near-luxury in Burma in comparison to other places.

This was especially true of their second year in Burma. They lived well because their food and material was not heavily rationed and they had plenty of money with which to purchase desired articles. They were able to buy cloth, shoes, cigarettes, and cosmetics to supplement the many gifts given to them by soldiers who had received "comfort bags" from home.
While in Burma they amused themselves by participating in sports events with both officers and men, and attended picnics, entertainments, and social dinners. They had a phonograph and in the towns they were allowed to go shopping.

--- (unquote)


Please read the paragraph titled PERSONALITY, the average age was 25.
 
.... so then why do we have all these old people suing the Japanese government for money then? Either there's a mega Asia conspiracy going on, or I'm pretty sure those "comfort" women were forced to do their share of "uncomfortable" favors.
 
To Han Chan,

--(quote)

I think you are trying to argue whith one of the extreme right-wingers who enjoys making everyone upset by posting inflamatory propoganda in this discussion forum. I would not be surprised if origami is actually a person who was allready banned from this site.

--(unquote)

What do you want to mean by "right-wingers"?

What kind of people are "left-wingers"?

Are you a person still living in early 20th century?

Labelling people "right-wingers" or "left-wingers" is nonsense.
Calling people who just try to find the truth "revisionists" or "racist" or whatever is unfair -- not only unfair to us (grown-up men & women) but also unfair to our children.
 
Please read the paragraph titled PERSONALITY, the average age was 25.
Hello? I haven't received a reply on my post.. It is possible that you have not seen it, but if it's not too much trouble I would like to hear your point of view on my perspective. 😌 Thank you in advance.

And about the report, I have read it. It is based on one camp only. Even if everything written in it is true, it is not very scientific and credible to base your statements on just one report about one particular case, is it? I was hoping you could bring up more "evidence" to support your point of view.
 
To ecampbell07

You quoted my previous message only partially, it would have been better for better understanding of all friends --

--(quote)

" the brutal truth is that the vast majority WERE forced. "
Forced by whom?
By Japanese military? -- No jokes, please.

Japanese military might be accused of neglecting the tragedy which was caused by poverty.

Would you Americans willingly make your government apologyze to the Japanese for the brutal truth that GHQ of US military neglected what was happening daily in the first couple of months and let US soldiers rape thousands of Japanese women (housewives, highschoolers, i.e. civilians), and forced some other Japanese women to become prostitutes during 1945 - 1952?

--(unquote)


I just added the paragraph "Would you Americans willingly ..... 1945-1952?" to have you understand the point.

Now in 2007, there is no such Japanese as really want to require US government to apologyze for what their military did in 1945 - 1952.
We know that such requirement is ridiculous.
 
To leonmarino,

--(quote)

Now, I've the read the report to which you have provided us a link. You use it as some sort of evidence to make us believe that the "comfort women" were prostitutes, and were not recruited by force. However, the report states:

Quote:Other reports show the "comfort girls" have been found wherever it was necessary for the Japanese Army to fight.

Which pretty much means that in other cases the Japanese did force girls to provide "services". It is therefore not truthful to make a generalized statement about this issue based on this report alone.

--(unquote)

I do not get the point, leomarino.
Firstly -- why do you think ""comfort girls" have been found .... to fight" means "in other cases the Japanese did force girls to provide "services"?
Secondly -- the group of people who require Japanese government's further apologies insist tha Japanese military "kidnapped" girls and force them to work as "sex slaves", in the meanwhile, it seems that now you admit (at least) that the girls were "recruited."
Is my understanding correct?



--(quote)

Also, it says that:

Quote:On the basis of these false representations many girls enlisted for overseas duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen.

False representations? Doesn't seem like a fair deal does it? And besides that:

Quote:Many "masters" made life very difficult for the girls by charging them high prices for food and other articles.

--(unquote)

Just for you information, "a few hundred yen" 60 years ago is something around 10 million dollars or more, the lowest rank soldier's annual salary was 1/30 of that amount.

"False representations? Doesn't seem like a fair deal does it? " -- I have told you many times that recruitment was done by private brokers. In Korean Peninsula, brokers were Koreans. They often placed false recruitment ads and Japanese military warned them.

"Many "masters" made life very difficult for the girls by charging them high prices for food and other articles. " -- masters are civilians, not military officials.
I would be surprised if I met a prostitution house master who is nice and honest and does not exploit his/her employees.
 
Obeika,
I have been waiting for you to say these words -- "show me hard evidence that it didn't happen"
Probatio diabolica
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Probatio diabolica (Latin: "devil's proof") is a legal requirement to achieve an impossible proof. Where a legal system would appear to require an impossible proof, the remedies are reversing the burden of proof, or giving additional rights to the individual facing the probatio diabolica.


Where's the evidence, all you are providing here is an explanation of what is considered evidence. If you looked at any of the links I provided you would have seen that the testimony was given to the United Nations, do you not accept the UN as a valid "court" of testimony.

What other proof do you need?
 
Obeika,

"do you not accept the UN as a valid "court" of testimony."

NO.

The name "UN" may sound something wonderfully authorized to you, but not to most Japanese people.

Most part of UN's activities are those of country clubs (lol).

They get much money from Japan (2nd largest cash dispencer for UN) and spend time and money for junk activities.

They gave public hearing for "victims" to tell their stories only, but not a single chance for Japan's justification.

Don't you think it is totally unfair?
 
Firstly -- why do you think ""comfort girls" have been found .... to fight" means "in other cases the Japanese did force girls to provide "services"?
My interpretation of the the sentence is as follows:
If the Japanese army would go to place X, they would have found "comfort girls" there, even if there weren't any. This would imply that the Japanese army forced local girls into this trade. I could be wrong of course and I would like to hear others' opinion on this.
Secondly -- the group of people who require Japanese government's further apologies insist tha Japanese military "kidnapped" girls and force them to work as "sex slaves", in the meanwhile, it seems that now you admit (at least) that the girls were "recruited."
I believe that some were "recruited" indeed, in very big inverted commas. If a girl makes an application because of whatever reason, but gets very bad treatment and "working conditions" which she didn't count on, it seems that it is not legal "recruitment". The conditions in which someone is asked to leave their homes and serve the Japanese soldiers seem so unhumane that kidnapping might be a better word to describe the process than "recruiting".
Just for you information, "a few hundred yen" 60 years ago is something around 10 million dollars or more, the lowest rank soldier's annual salary was 1/30 of that amount.
Were they allowed to keep their money then? I would doubt that; from the report it is very unclear how reliable the "recruiters" were. Moreover, false representations implies that there was something fishy about the whole business.

Even so, I think it is common sense nowadays that if I ask any person to work for me, promise working conditions that aren't true, and have sex with random men for money, I am not ethical. Even if I offer a million dollars.
"False representations? Doesn't seem like a fair deal does it? " -- I have told you many times that recruitment was done by private brokers.
That doesn't make the whole thing ethically correct. If I procure my whatever resources from criminal organizations, that makes me a partner in crime too. Especially if my bargaining power is very big compared to other stakeholders; I think that the Japanese army, being a force to be reckoned with, had some power over these matters and were well aware of the malpractices.
I would be surprised if I met a prostitution house master who is nice and honest and does not exploit his/her employees.
Um.. So the master is to blame but the main customer isn't? By making use of this business, the Japanese army is equally to blame for the malpractices. If the Japanese army were so concerned about the conditions of these girls they could have made an end to it. But they haven't. Alas.
 
To Origami,

You scare me, you really sound a very hard person.

There were also Dutch girls and young women used by Japanese military in the former Dutch East Indies, today Indonesia.
I have seen it with my own eyes!! We all had to stand in a row, while a Japanese officer took some of the girls and young women away, they were loaded on a truck and brought to Semarang in Central Java. One of the young women had to leave her 2 year old girl behind her in our camp BB 10.
Can you feel her pain?

The Japanese military overseas didn't behave as they would have in their own country, Japan. I am a eyewitness.
 
When higher ranked officials came to know the terrible situation in Indonesia, they closed the brothel 2 month after it opened.
And the soldiers were persecuted after the war.
 
Pipokun,

I fully agree with you!
Sitting around the table and talk about what happened is fine with me.
I also have a friend whose mother (Dutch) fell in love with a Japanese officer,
this friend is their love child. He was born in my camp Banyu Biru 10

I can see the difference between Japanese war criminals and the Japanese people.
Many countries have or had war criminals, just admit it.
And up till today young women all over the world are raped by a beastly type of men.
 
Hi, Elizabeth
To Origami,
You scare me, you really sound a very hard person.
There were also Dutch girls and young women used by Japanese military in the former Dutch East Indies, today Indonesia.
I have seen it with my own eyes!! We all had to stand in a row, while a Japanese officer took some of the girls and young women away, they were loaded on a truck and brought to Semarang in Central Java. One of the young women had to leave her 2 year old girl behind her in our camp BB 10.
Can you feel her pain?
The Japanese military overseas didn't behave as they would have in their own country, Japan. I am a eyewitness.

Have you read all my previous comments?
I know the case in Indonesia.

"I am a eyewitness" -- so you did testify at the military court in Semarang where 11 Japanese officers were sentenced to death (one official) and 15-20 years in prison (rest of them), didn't you?

Japan already underwent trials and accepted judgement 60 years ago, and still Dutch women are requiring further official apologies.

Do you think it fair?
Can you try one same person for one same crime twice, three times, four times ...... forever in you country?
 
There were also Dutch girls and young women used by Japanese military in the former Dutch East Indies, today Indonesia
I think Dutch have many testimony about that.
why does not open the testimonies at that time to Public
a documment of Dutch 1n 1994, Dutch Department of Foreign Affairs reported
that western women(200~300 women) were working at brothel as a confort woman voluntary
and, some dutch comfort women was forced by Local agents.
Japanese army exposed that and this brothel was closed by the Japanese army
ニ湛ニ筑ニ停?ーニ停?愬ス窶毒陳充/B](Semarang incident)
http://www.interq.or.jp/sheep/clarex/essays/essays04.html
and those ppl concerned were ecxuted by Dutch though they were innocent
why does not Dutch offer the record of that trial?
I think Dutch can not because It is disadvantageous for Durch gervnment
and one note, their body odor was too smell for Japanese soldier...(sorry)
that brothel was always closed ......
 
Hi, Elizabeth
Have you read all my previous comments?
I know the case in Indonesia.
"I am a eyewitness" -- so you did testify at the military court in Semarang where 11 Japanese officers were sentenced to death (one official) and 15-20 years in prison (rest of them), didn't you?
Japan already underwent trials and accepted judgement 60 years ago, and still Dutch women are requiring further official apologies.
Do you think it fair?
Can you try one same person for one same crime twice, three times, four times ...... forever in you country?

Origami,

I was a eyewitness of what happened around me, and I was then 17 years old. I was not one of the unlucky girls who were taken away out of our camp BB10 to Semarang.

Apologies? I think a simple acknowledgement of what happened to the poor "comfort women" is much better. It should be a simply acknowledged by the Japanese government. Denying facts is not clever.

Every war is wrong in my eyes. There are also no innocent governments in my eyes, there are only innnocent peoples.
I can only tell you that I have seen many ugly things during the Japanese occupation, but then mostly as from February 1944. Before that date we were under the controle of Japanese citizens. As from 1944 all POWs and Internees came under the military rules. And since Japan began to lose the war, we "prisoners and even very small children" paid the bill.

Apologize? Once, twice, many more times? From one or two ministers, from the Japanese people? I personally don't believe in apologies.

I love history, but I don't like fantasy history, just simple facts. But just that seems the biggest problem.
One must be honest, strong and proud enough to say:"I was wrong!"
 
Dear Eilzabeth

I feel sad that you have been provoked to try to argue with persons who tries to deny the historical fact. It must be painful for you. I respect you so much because you, despite having suffered from japanese military agression, are able to like japanese people. I think that these people think that they are defending the japanese honour by suggesting that those who were raped and victims of human trafficking were merely prostitutes who had volunteered and well-paid. Actually they are opening old wounds for the surviving victims. They have no shame!

I know many japanese and I have personally never met anyone with this kind of insensitive attitude. I certainly hope that we are hearing the voises from a very small minority who have been encouraged by Abe's recent vague remarks. Most japanese I know are disgusted by the propoganda from extreme right - uyoku, but most are too scared to speak up. Most japanese are really intimidated by the uyoku. Uyoku dantai - Wikipedia

In Demark we are mostly not willing to discuss with faschists and neo-nazis, because even discussing with them is giving them more credit than they deserve. These people are below your lewel, so I suggest that you try to ignore them.
 
Elizabeth,

What you say above is beside the point.

There is a group of people (Korean, Chinese, Dutch, etc.) who insist such things as follow --

1) Japanese government at wartime must have passed "a bill" (or something like that) to set up thousands of prostitution houses and to gather women to work as prostitutes

2) There must have been an official order form that Japanese government gave to Japanese military

3) Japanese military must have kidnapped 200,000 women to fulfill the order

4) Japanese military must have forced kidnapped women to work as sex slaves

5) Therefore, Japanese government must make an official apology to the victims


And I insist --

1) Japanese government had nothing to with comfort women or prositutes

2) Japanese military knew the necessity of comfort women or prostitutes for the soldiers, but it did not plan to kidnap women, nor to recruit women

3) Japanese military let civilians (private brokers or pimps, private prostitution house owners) do the business

4) Some Korean pimps were so fraudulent that there must have been some tragic cases

5) In Indonesia (Semarang), several Japanese soldiers violated military discipline and forced Dutch women to become prostitutes -- which was an exceptional case, Japanese military shut down the house two months later and punished the soldiers at the same time -- all these military officials were accused after war and were pronounced heavy sentences

Who is spreading fantasy?

In any way, Japanese government has made official appologies many times already for what Japan did in wartime in general.
 
When I say "hard evidence", it means firsthand material, not reports, nor books
What is wrong with this statement?

These events happened sixty years ago. Most of the participants, willing, or unwilling, are dead. Any further firsthand material will be reported in ... guess what? Reports and books.
This is perhaps one of the most self-serving arguments I've seen in a long time. This is quite clearly factual material and clearly states that the Japanese Army did bad things in the past. This is not exactly a shock to anyone: the Bataan Death March and the Rape of Nanking are pretty well documented.

Is this an indictment of modern Japanese culture? Not directly, no. So why can't origami just admit that what happened in the past DID happen, so we can move on and try to ensure it doesn't happen again?

As far as origami's incredulousness over the number of 200,000 comfort women: by 1945, the Imperial Japanese Army had activated FIVE MILLION MEN in 145 Divisions. Not to mention the (by then largely moribund) Imperial Japanese Navy. 200,000 prostitutes is hardly a disproportionate number when put into proper perspective.

Finally: trying to denounce other nations' governments does not inherently strengthen one's argument; it simply means other governments are guilty of the same sins as your own, just in different quantities.

It is true that Japan has apologized for past deeds, and that is fine, but when some people start claiming the deeds for which Japan has apologized for didn't happen, that's where the trouble is.
 
So far no japanese PM has had the decency of regretting or even acknowledging the involvement of the japanese military involvement in running brothels:
"Prime Minister Shinzo Abe made clear Monday he will not offer a fresh apology on the wartime "comfort women" issue even if Japan is urged to do so by a U.S. congressional resolution.
"The resolution contains mistakes of fact," Abe told the Upper House Budget Committee when asked about his intentions....
"Even if it is passed, it does not mean we will apologize," Abe said.
He said he basically stands by a 1993 government statement that acknowledged the military's role in forcing the women to work in wartime brothels.
The statement, by then Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono, admitted the women were recruited through "coercion." The statement offered the government's "sincere apologies and remorse."
Abe on Monday went on to say that "there was no coercion in such ways as military authorities bursting into homes and taking women out" to brothels.
He noted "there were cases in which brokers serving as middlemen in effect coerced them. "So I think there was coercion in a broad sense."
(IHT/Asahi: March 6,2007) "
"The 1993 apology was not approved by the parliament. It came after a Japanese journalist uncovered official defense documents showing the military had a direct hand in running the brothels -- a role Tokyo until that point had denied."
(AP) March 7, 2007.
 
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