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Issue understanding the の particle's usage in a book title

I wonder how you can learn about na-adjectives just from those translations. Decent textbooks no doubt explain it (how it conjugates, how it modifies nouns, etc.) in the relatively early stage of learning.


The app must pronounce it as Fushigi. You just misheard 鼻濁音, I believe.
Japanese phonology - Wikipedia
For starters the JA sensei lists that combo specifically under "Adjectives NA" so I pretty sure that would clue me in, I can also look it up on wikipedia &/or google. As for the pronounciation I made sure I wasn't mishearing it by not only listening again but comparing the pronouciation to the pronouciation of it's listed "strange/wonder" item (which is on the same frame) and it definitly said fushini on the female name item instead of fushigi despite displaying the correct kana by the name and and saying fushigi on the "strange/wonder" item like it is supposed to. Since you're going to reply anyway, is there more than one use for the na hirigana that I should be wary of or is adjectives it's only usage?
 
不思議な is the most common attributive form, and 不思議の is an irregular way of modifying a noun. So, you got the difference between them via wikipedia or google search?

Can you upload the audio file of the pronunciation?
 
不思議な is the most common attributive form, and 不思議の is an irregular way of modifying a noun. So, you got the difference between them via wikipedia or google search?

Can you upload the audio file of the pronunciation?
Well this particular difference I got from JA sensei app and from what I've read the の is mainly used to indicated the just stated topic/subject/object owning the topic/subject/object about to be stated while the な is mainly used on adjectives (didn't pay much attention to what those were when I was younger, probably look it up later).

As for the pronouciation I contacted the app author and he consulted his wife who is a native speaker apparently and she said the name is pronounced fushinga which is probably what is making it sound like fushina.

Not sure if I should start a new thread for this but since I probably still need some help with my understanding the structure of japaneses sentences I thought I would ask for some help understanding the underlined bit below and you can just point out mistakes in how I have understood the sentence so far (and yes I'm completly ignoring english grammer and structure), once I have understood the structure properly I'll probably being asking for much less on these kind of things.

アリスは銀行に彼女の妹のそばに座っの非常に疲れ始めて
Alice, bank, on; her little sister; ???; with, sit, by; very tired for the first time
 
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アリスは銀行に彼女の妹のそばに座っの非常に疲れ始めて

That's what you found in the Japanese version of Alice in Wonderland? Or what you got by punching the English version into a translation app?

Alice's Adventures in Wonderland: Japanese

アリスは川辺でおねえさんのよこにすわって、なんにもすることがないのでとても退屈たいくつしはじめていました。
 
It's in the japanese version, I omitted evrything after the comma, waiting for a photo to be approoved then you can see for yourself, as for the english I've already translated I used an online english version as a reference for what the general meaning should have been so I can take a closer look at the mistakes I already noticed in and correct them after looking at the information in the apps, the current text is the result of that. Still having problems with the に particle but I'm sure you'll point those out while correcting my understanding of the structure.
 
It's in the japanese version

It is LAUGHABLY wrong. Horribly, horribly, horribly wrong. Throw it away. (Besides the mangled construction, it has Alice sitting atop a bank...the financial institution kind).

I'm sure you'll point those out while correcting my understanding of the structure.

You are mistaken; I will not. You lack any foundation to serve as a basis for correction and I'm not going to sit here and type up for your sole benefit all the explanations you would need to understand 1) why that is effed up like a soup sandwich or 2) the construction and meaning of the actual Japanese translation which I copy-pasted for you. You can find all those explanations in existing textbooks.

Your plan to teach yourself Japanese by deciphering a Japanese book is doomed to complete and utter failure before you start if that truly is what is in your copy of Alice in Wonderland and you persist in using it. At least switch to the genuine one I linked. Scroll down to Chapter 1 and compare the text you see there with the mess you have, which looks like the random result of an explosion in a Japanese font factory.
 
bank...the financial institution kind
I was aware of that however I chose to ignore that since I'm only using it to learn the language, one can think of it like when theatres or movie writers use a different setting (such as romeo and juliet being put in a modern setting with mafia etc)

You are mistaken; I will not.
Then I'll just look it up myself after my understanding of the sentence structure is corrected

You lack any foundation to serve as a basis for correction
Tell me wha I need to provide then

I'm not going to sit here and type up for your sole benefit all the explanations you
Then just point me to sources you recommend
You can find all those explanations in existing textbooks.
Would that genki series be one of them?

Your plan to teach yourself Japanese by deciphering a Japanese book is doomed to complete and utter failure before you start if that truly is what is in your copy of Alice in Wonderland and you persist in using it. At least switch to the genuine one I linked. Scroll down to Chapter 1 and compare the text you see there with the mess you have, which looks like the random result of an explosion in a Japanese font factory.
I appreciate the link (didn't notice until you pointed it out), I will see if I can get a printed copy when I'm paid in 10 days time and then use them both to help me understand :)

Oh by the way I'm going to work now so it will not be until 11pm or tommorrow that I respond to any more replies
 
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It's in the japanese version
Like Mike wrote, that sentence is both grammatically incorrect and semantically nonsensical. I don't know where you got it from, but it most certainly doesn't come from an actual Japanese book. To me, it looks more like a machine translation from English to Japanese (river bank -> financial bank) that was then retyped manually with mistakes (there are parts missing).

I used an online english version as a reference for what the general meaning should have been
In essence then, you're doing the same thing as people who try to learn Japanese by listening to dialogue in anime and comparing with the subtitles. This doesn't work. Translating between languages as different as Japanese and English involves a lot more than replacing and reordering words: it's often necessary to completely reword or even remove, replace or add entire sentences to get a natural-sounding result. Because of this, the translation may actually diverge from the original. In the best case, you'll notice this and ignore the translation; in the worst case, you'll be misled and learn something incorrect.

Start by going through a few textbooks such as "Genki I", "Genki II" and "An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese" and learning kanji inbetween. Once you've finished those, you can come back to have a go at a novel.
 
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland: Japanese

アリスは川辺でおねえさんのよこにすわって、なんにもすることがないのでとても退屈たいくつしはじめていました。

Even with my limited knowledge of Japanese I can tell your source for Alice is actual Japanese. I was struggling through what he provided and it didn't seem to me like real Japanese. I can get an understanding of what it's actually saying on your link though, mind you my understanding is not perfect with my limited Japanese but I can pick up the general meaning with your link.
 
Well this particular difference I got from JA sensei app and from what I've read the の is mainly used to indicated the just stated topic/subject/object owning the topic/subject/object about to be stated while the な is mainly used on adjectives (didn't pay much attention to what those were when I was younger, probably look it up later).
So, what is the difference in meaning? The app explains it? How about 自由の女神 vs. 自由な女神 or 静かの海 vs. 静かな海 (or similarly, 青い祓魔師 vs. 青の祓魔師 and 白いガンダルフ vs. 白のガンダルフ)?

As for the pronouciation I contacted the app author and he consulted his wife who is a native speaker apparently and she said the name is pronounced fushinga which is probably what is making it sound like fushina.
I, too, am a native Japanese speaker. Confirm the app author again if it's not fushinga but fushingi, i.e., 鼻濁音 "velar nasal" as I wrote previously. Or, upload the audio file since it's more certain.

疲れ始めて
very tired for the first time
The app seems not to be able to even recognize the difference between the -te form of the second compound verb 始める and an adverb めて.

EDIT:
I read the first page of the book you uploaded. It's almost gibberish as already pointed out, not only about the first line but throughout the entire page. It's nothing but a waste of time to translate it, or even to try to read it. Google Translate is also terrible, but at least it makes sense for the first sentence on the book (except 銀行).

original
Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the bank, and of having nothing to do: once or twice she had peeped into the book her sister was reading, but it had no pictures or conversations in it,

Google Translate
アリスは妹の銀行に座って何もしなくても疲れ始めました。妹が読んでいた本を一度か二回覗いてみたが、絵や会話はなかった

your book
アリスは銀行に彼女の妹のそばに座っの非常に疲れ始めて、そして何の関係も持たないのされた:一度か二度、彼女は姉が読んでいた本に覗き見していたが、それはそれで何の絵や会話を持っていた、
 
This topic makes my head hurt a bit... ahem, anyway.
Would that genki series be one of them?

I just commented about textbooks here,
here

If you really want to learn by reading, someone has adapted the L-R (listening-reading) method to Japanese,
! L-R the most important passages

However, just so you know, in order to to learn 'just by reading' you first build up your fundamentals by going through simple-sentence audio courses following along with their written materials, grader readers, etc., you don't start with a novel on day one. It does get you to books much more quickly (first to simple books in translation, books which you should first be familiar with in your own language), but before you get to that you do first have to go through a *lot* of learning materials. Those learning materials would add up to quite a lot of money store-bought, but you can perhaps find them used or by other methods.

That said, I think this method worked for the author of the linked article and a handful of other people only because they were polyglots who had already used this method on several other languages. It seems like a viable if eccentric method for learning languages with phonetic spelling, but you have to be particularly stubborn about learning by reading instead of by textbooks to learn a kanji/hanzi/etc. language this way.

Anyway, if you insist on learning Japanese by immersing yourself in reading from the start, that resource will give you some rough guidance on how to do it but you're mostly on your own.

It's not all or nothing either; personally, I borrowed a number of the L-R techniques in my own studies.... but I also did a textbook (two different ones actually, plus tae kim... ) as well as flashcards and all the usual stuff.

Personally, I think you'd be best off getting started with a textbook and not worrying about alternative or additional learning methods until you've gotten past that. You'll find there's a lot more support surrounding learning the textbook way since, well, that's the way almost everybody who is actually successful at learning the language learns.
 
Start by going through a few textbooks such as "Genki I", "Genki II" and "An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese" and learning kanji inbetween. Once you've finished those, you can come back to have a go at a novel.
Did you even bother to read through my previous posts? I've twice said that when payday comes I will take a look at this genki series and probably order it in, as mike has kindly provided a link to a proper japanese version of alice in wonderland I will using that in any future posts seeking help. As far as grammatically incorrect goes you're just repeating what has already been said which until it was stated the 1st time I was not aware of and is most likely the reason I was having trouble in the 1st place.
 
So, what is the difference in meaning? The app explains it? How about 自由の女神 vs. 自由な女神 or 静かの海 vs. 静かな海 (or similarly, 青い祓魔師 vs. 青の祓魔師 and 白いガンダルフ vs. 白のガンダルフ)?

Just need to clarify 1st if I'm suppopsed to read those left to right because from what little I'm aware about the japanese language it is supposed to be written & read right to left
 
Just need to clarify 1st if I'm suppopsed to read those left to right because from what little I'm aware about the japanese language it is supposed to be written & read right to left
Horizontal writing is left to right, top to bottom, just like English.
Vertical writing is top to bottom, right to left, just like Chinese.
 
Horizontal writing is left to right, top to bottom, just like English.
Vertical writing is top to bottom, right to left, just like Chinese.
Thanks :) I'll finish my reading of my favourite translated novels then I'll come back to your question
 
Thanks :) I'll finish my reading of my favourite translated novels then I'll come back to your question
I don't believe I asked a question. I think perhaps you thought I was Toritoribeさん、and I think perhaps you're trying to be a bit snarky towards him. You can do that if you like, but just realize that if you irritate Toritoribeさん, he's unlikely to be helpful to you in the future. You may not think that matters, but he's one of the most helpful native Japanese speakers I've ever encountered and in my opinion throwing away is help for a moment of self-indulgent behavior wouldn't be very wise.

Of course he's been a bit sharp with you first, but ... well, if you continue down this Japanese learning path and come back in a year to read this thread you'll understand why people were frustrated with you and spoke a bit sharply.
 
Oh ok no worries as years go on my outburts of anger get fewer & farer between so after having one I would actually be impressed if you did manage to draw one out of me.
 
So, what is the difference in meaning? The app explains it? How about 自由の女神 vs. 自由な女神 or 静かの海 vs. 静かな海 (or similarly, 青い祓魔師 vs. 青の祓魔師 and 白いガンダルフ vs. 白のガンダルフ)?
This is what I'm getting

自=mizukara=oneself
由=yoshi=reason
自由=jiyuu=freedom/liberty

女=onna/me=female
神=kami/kan/kou=god
女神=megami(sounds like mengami)=goddess/female deity

静か=shizuka=quiet/silent
海=umi=sea/ocean

These are the results I draw from those
自由の女神=jiyuu no megami=freedom of/from goddess (depends on context)
自由な女神=jiyuu na megami=free goddess

静かの海=shizuka no umi=silence of ocean / quiet from sea
静かな海=shizuka na umi=silent ocean

I'm about to take a bath so I'll do the rest afterwards
 
While context is king, most of the time 自由の女神 would mean (the) Statue of Liberty.
That was the first thing I thought of when I translated the freedom kanji but decided to translate the other kanji before assuming anything, thank you for clarifying that though.
 
So, what is the difference in meaning? The app explains it? How about 自由の女神 vs. 自由な女神 or 静かの海 vs. 静かな海 (or similarly, 青い祓魔師 vs. 青の祓魔師 and 白いガンダルフ vs. 白のガンダルフ)?
Back to it then:
青=ao/aoi=blue/green
青い=aoi=blue/green/pale/unripe/inexperienced
祓=harau=exercise
魔=ma=witch/demon/evil/spirit
祓魔=harama/futsuma/haima=exercise spirit
師=shi=expert/teacher/master/model/army
Not sure on this one
祓魔師=haramashi=exercise spirit army

The best I could do here
青い祓魔師=aoi haramashi=inexperienced exercising spirit army
青の祓魔師=ao no haramashi=blue from exercise spirit army

That's the sort of sentence I would still ask for help in understanding correctly when learning from reading (at least to start with, probably get the hang of it after 5-10 instances of that type of thing)
 
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