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My grammar questions

Discussion in 'Learning Japanese' started by Zuba, Aug 19, 2016.

  1. Toritoribe

    Toritoribe 禁漁期
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    仕事について/仕事のことを話す

    Similar to ~とき, when the verb in the conditional clause (= A) is state, not action/movement, B occurs during A.
    e.g.
    彼女がいたら、プレゼントを贈ります。
    If she is there, I'll give her a present.
     
  2. Zuba

    Zuba 後輩

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    どうもありがとうございます。

    Thank you.

    I am going to allow myself one more attempt at たら before I move on and prevent myself from obsessing on it.

    To recap. AたらB. A must occur before B. If the verb in A is not a action verb B occurs at the same time as A. I am still assuming that A must happen before B will start and continue while A is occurring. Also the main theme of たら is that it is used for one-off situations.


    仕事に行かなかったら、係長に連絡します。If I cannot go to work, this would be a one-off situations, I will contact my boss.

    あのやろうがいったら、殴ろう。If he is there I will punch him. Not sure what kind of person would say this.

    暇だったら、映画を一緒に見に行きませんか。If you are free, would you like to see a movie together? I am assuming that the state of 暇 would mean that the person is often not free, right?

    よろしくお願いします。 じゃ、また。
     
  3. Mike Cash

    Mike Cash 骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

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    Check your conjugations; there are a couple of errors.
     
  4. Zuba

    Zuba 後輩

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    こんばんは、皆さん。元気ですか。私は元気です。

    I bring a, hopefully simple, grammar structure to run by you all.

    The first is 前に which is placed after a verb in the present short form to show that a the action is done before the action after it. The second verb's tense is the tense of the whole sentence.

    髪をとかす前に、歯を磨きます。 Before I comb my hair I will brush my teeth.

    雨を来る前に、晴れでした。 Before the rain came it was sunny.

    And the next one is てから. から follows the て form of a verb and shows that after that action another action will occur.

    友達に連絡してから、お茶を入れます。After I contact my friend I will brew tea.

    In regards to your post, Mike, I do not see any mistakes. I am sure when you point them out I will shake my head and wonder how I missed them.

    よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。
     
  5. Mike Cash

    Mike Cash 骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

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    Difference between "do not" and "can not"

    いたら

    いったら would be (mis) understood as coming from either 行く or 言う.

    Watch that 雨を thing. The を is paired with transitive verbs. In English I think we're barely aware of the concept of transivity, but when speaking Japanese you really have to keep it in mind, as it affects both verb and particle choice.
     
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  6. Zuba

    Zuba 後輩

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    どうもありがとうございます。

    Thank you, Mike. I see my mistakes clearly now, and I am shaking my head wondering how I missed them.
    I will make a effort to be more aware of the transivity of verbs. I agree that it is something I rarely think about, but I will do my utmost to keep transivity in mind.

    I am assuming that my post about 前に and てから was correct as nothing was stated about it, so I will move on to another topic.

    なくてもいいです is used to say "you do not need to do X." The も can be omitted to make it more casual.

    これを買ってくれなくてもいいです。You do not need to buy this for me.

    急がなくてもいいそうです。 I heard you do not need to hurry.

    テーブルの上があるグラスを特別に洗わなくてもいいです。The glass on the table does not need specially cleaned.

    早くないくていい。You do not need to be early.

    よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。
     
  7. Mike Cash

    Mike Cash 骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

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    The が should be に.

    The translation doesn't match, and again it is transivity rearing its ugly head. (Actually, if we take it as written the Japanese version says "The top of the table doesn't especially have to wash a certain glass"). You have a が and an を and a transitive verb.

    テーブルの上が
    あるグラスを
    Transitive verb

    特別に is generally used more like "especially" and here would refer to the other person not needing to go to an extra effort to wash the glass, not to the glass not requiring special cleaning methods.

    Let's just rub our eyes and have a fresh go at that one, shall we?
     
  8. Zuba

    Zuba 後輩

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    どうもありがとうございます。

    テーブルの上にあるグラスを特別に洗わなくてもいいです. I see that I needed the に instead of the が . Is this correct now? I think it is since the first part テーブルの上にある is modifying グラス.

    I am not sure the word to mean "specially" is 格別 right?

    早くなくていい。(Sigh) Sometimes the silly mistakes I make drive me insane.

    Also, Mike, thank you for taking the time to correct my work. I like how you do not just point out the mistake, but try and hint at it and make us think and discover it ourselves. I really do like that. :emoji_smile:

    よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。
     
  9. Mike Cash

    Mike Cash 骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

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    特別に洗わなくてもいい would be taken as telling the person they need not bother washing the glass at all, unless they wanted to.

    If you wanted to say it doesn't require any special method of washing, then I would use 洗い方 or 洗う方法 and 特別な instead of 特別に

    テーブルの上のグラスは特別な洗い方がない。
    テーブルの上のグラスは特別な洗う方法がない。

    Or (more likely)

    テーブルの上のグラスは普通に洗ってもいい。
    テーブルの上のグラスを洗う時特別に気を使わなくてもいい。

    早くなくてもいい is grammatically correct, but depending on the situation you would most likely encounter a verb used there.

    早く来なくてもいい
    早く行かなくてもいい
    早くやらなくてもいい
    急がなくてもいい

    And depending on the social circumstances, the verbs of giving and receiving are not out of place.

    早く来てくれなくてもいい

    And it wouldn't be unusual to find the phrasing flipped, as it sounds nicer and more considerate of the other person

    ゆっくり来てもいい
    ゆっくりでもいい
     
  10. Toritoribe

    Toritoribe 禁漁期
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    That sentence sounds awkward, or at least uncommon since you usually need to contact your boss when you find you won't be able to go to work, i.e., before the time you are supposed to be at the office, not after that. You need to use 仕事に行けないときは or 行けない場合は in that case.
    What follows after 仕事に行けなかったら is an event after the time you are supposed to be at the office, for instance 係長が困ります.

    雨が降りだす前は、晴れでした/晴れていました。

    "It was sunny" is a state, so you can't use 前に.
     
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  11. Zuba

    Zuba 後輩

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    こんばんは。

    I studied って today. It seems to behave just like と for quoting people. It appears to be more informal and can be used alone or with 言う。

    トムさんは「天気予報によると、明日は寒いそうだって。」Tom said he heard it will be cold tomorrow from the weather forecast.

    昨日彼は、「期末試験ががるって言っていた」。He said there is a final exam.

    A quick inquiry about 前に, from the above post it seems it can only be used with action. Is this a correct judgment?

    よろしくお願いします。
     
  12. Mike Cash

    Mike Cash 骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

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    トムさんは「天気予報によると、明日は寒いそうだ」って。

    See?
     
  13. Zuba

    Zuba 後輩

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    おはようございます。皆さんは元気ですか。私は元気です。

    Thank you, Mike. I see what I did there. I want to apologize for not being present the last few weeks. I have re-worked the use of my free time and I should be here more frequently.

    My question for this day is about みたい. It follows a noun and shows that a idea or something resembles X. It can also follow verbs and shows that it looks like X is the case. It is possible for it to follow adjectives, but it is more common to use そうです instead. From my readings it seems that みたい is used for the external characteristics.

    蛇みたいペンは私のです。 The pen that looks like a snake is mine.

    本は小さい財布みたいですね。 That book looks like a small wallet.

    誰かお茶を入れたみたいです。 It looks like somebody made tea.

    彼は 「その貝殻は花みたい」って。 He said that seashell looks like a flower.

    よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。
     
  14. Mike Cash

    Mike Cash 骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

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    Two quick points:

    1. みたい functions like a な adjective. Without the な, it comes across as the verb "want to see" modifying the following noun.

    2. Look up のような and/or のように見える and compare them with みたい
     
  15. Toritoribe

    Toritoribe 禁漁期
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    って is understandable, but と言っていました。 is more suitable there. って at the end of a sentence is basically used in casual conversations, so there is no problem with, for instance 彼は、その貝殻は花みたいだって/だったって with using indirect quotation.
     
  16. Zuba

    Zuba 後輩

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    どうもありがとうございます。

    I see that みたい is a na-adjective. I looked up ような and I am confused about how it differs from みたい. :emoji_confused:

    With って since it is used in a casual setting should I avoid using 「」?

    For example 母は、あのコーヒーは苦すぎたって
          母は、「あのコーヒーは苦すぎた」って
          母は、あのコーヒーは苦すぎたって言っています。
          母は、「あのコーヒーは苦すぎた」と言っていました。
          母は、あのコーヒーは苦すぎたと言っていました。

    From what I understand these all say the same thing, but the politeness level varies. I have not directly studied 「」, only what I have picked up indirectly, so this all might be a bit silly. Sorry if this is all obvious.

    よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。
     
  17. Toritoribe

    Toritoribe 禁漁期
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    みたい is more colloquial, but the meaning is almost the same. The only difference in usage is how to connect nouns or na-adjectives.
    verbs
    入れるみたいです。
    入れるようです。

    i-adjectives
    高いみたいです。
    高いようです。

    nouns
    花みたいです。
    ようです。

    na-adjectives
    静かみたいです。
    静かようです。

    「」 indicates a direct quotation, thus, あのコーヒーは苦すぎた is exactly what she said whether the end of the sentence is って(言っています/した) or と(言っています/した). On the other hand, あのコーヒーは苦すぎた is the contents of her words when without 「」, so she might actually say あのコーヒー、苦すぎるのよね or something. Indirect quotation is more common in real conversations, I think.
     
  18. Zuba

    Zuba 後輩

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    おはようございます。皆さんは元気ですか。私は元気です。

    Thank you very much! I was really worried that みたい and よう were going to be drastically different and I was going to have to resist the desire to going to find every nuance of the two.

    Thank you for also explaining 「」. I was never really sure about these. I always felt like I was ignorant of its use and I was using it incorrectly. Also one quick question what are 「」called in Japanese? I tried looking it up, but I am not having much luck.

    よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。
     
  19. Toritoribe

    Toritoribe 禁漁期
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    It's called かぎかっこ(鍵括弧). Incidentally, parentheses () is かっこ(括弧).
     
  20. Mike Cash

    Mike Cash 骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

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    そのついでに、

    What about 『』 ?
     
  21. Toritoribe

    Toritoribe 禁漁期
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    にじゅうかぎかっこ(二重鍵括弧), maybe?:emoji_blush: (I rarely read it out, yeah, indeed.)
     
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  22. Zuba

    Zuba 後輩

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    どうもありがとうございます。

    Thank you the answers. :emoji_smile:
     
  23. Zuba

    Zuba 後輩

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    こんにちは、皆さん。元気ですか。おかげさまで、私は元気です。

    Greetings, all! I wanted to go over the use of てしまう as it appears to have two, rather opposite, meanings.

    The first is that a action is done to completion.

    トムさんによると、ケンさんは今日、先生が読んでと言った本を読んでしまいたそうです。According to Tom Ken finished reading the book the teacher said to read.

    The second interpretation is to show regret over a action being done. According to the textbook this can only be used for action that are in the affirmative.  "I regret not doing X" is not correct because it shows regret over a action not being done.

    仕事から電話を返事しまいました。Regrettably I responded to the call from work.

    From what the textbook explains both of these meanings can be understood from the same sentence and only with context can you discern the difference.

    One final note is that in casual conversation verb that end in て the てしまう is shortened to ちゃう and for verbs that end in んで the でしまう becomes じゃう.

    この料理店に行っちゃった。Regrettably I came to this restaurant.

    ベールを飲んじゃった。I finished this drinking this beer.

    よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。
     
  24. Mike Cash

    Mike Cash 骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

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    Watch your conjugations. You have inadvertently written it as "seems to want to finish reading"

    You need to nominalize it as 会社からの電話 (In English, we tend to use "work" to mean both what we do and our employer. Japanese 仕事 doesn't carry that double meaning. Use 会社、勤め先、バイト先、上司、課長、社長、etc instead).

    For a phone call, use (に) 出る or 応答する, not 返事

    Your Japanese says "went", which clashes with この and contradicts the English "came".
     
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  25. Zuba

    Zuba 後輩

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    おはようございます、皆さん。元気ですか。おかげで、私は元気です。

    Thank you for the corrections, Mike.

    For this I meant to write 読んでしまったそうです。

    For this structure of saying "a phone call from" do I need to always nominalize it? Would 父からの電話 be correct?

    Thank you for listing all this words that mean one's place of work. Very helpful! I was not aware that 仕事 only had the meaning work, as in one's occupation, and not the actual establishment.

    I should replace the この with あの. And the translation would be "I regrettably went to that restaurant.

    よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。
     

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